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So, quite a few Backgrounds provide proficiency in games.

This might feel like filler and dead weight, so I bet many will switch them for something else or never use them.


I feel this doesn't have to be. I feel the newfound position of games in D&D is an opportunity to add to campaigns and give setting some extra depth.

So, let us gather ideas what gaming proficiencies can bring to the table and how they can be employed in game.

Quote from: Gold Roger;780521So, quite a few Backgrounds provide proficiency in games.

This might feel like filler and dead weight, so I bet many will switch them for something else or never use them.


I feel this doesn't have to be. I feel the newfound position of games in D&D is an opportunity to add to campaigns and give setting some extra depth.

So, let us gather ideas what gaming proficiencies can bring to the table and how they can be employed in game.

We've tried integrating games into games; in one campaign, my character had earned some benefits from a god of luck, which were intended for the campaign's finale; a poker game.

Problem was, when the scene started, GM dealt the cards, and we... played poker. Properly. Having the GM butt in and manipulate the game directly (Because otherwise, we'd have been there all night, playing poker) kinda killed the mood of it, but there was no other way to really include a luck bonus and have it matter.

So, honestly, +Proficiency to any sort of gaming or gambling check would do fine for me.

Quote from: Ladybird;780527We've tried integrating games into games; in one campaign, my character had earned some benefits from a god of luck, which were intended for the campaign's finale; a poker game.

Problem was, when the scene started, GM dealt the cards, and we... played poker. Properly. Having the GM butt in and manipulate the game directly (Because otherwise, we'd have been there all night, playing poker) kinda killed the mood of it, but there was no other way to really include a luck bonus and have it matter.

So, honestly, +Proficiency to any sort of gaming or gambling check would do fine for me.

Well, if we don't use the proficiency bonus, that would defeat the purpose of making the proficiency useful.

What really interests me now is, how did a game of poker become the grand finale of a campaign?

This is from my own campaign bible:

Games of Talonar

Anyone can learn to play one of these games in an hour or so. Persons with a Tool Proficiency in them are masters.

Slapdragon

The governments of Talonar haven't minted bronze coins (Or "Druid Pennies") for centuries and they're technically no longer legal tender in Breygan or Churm, but their use endures as a barter currency among the most desperate and isolated of the rural poor and vast heaps of them often turn up in monster hordes (If you can find someone to take bronze pieces off you, they’re generally worth ½  CP apiece).

Children in Breygan use druid pennies to play a game called slapdragon. It's remarkably like Pogs from our world: The kids stack the coins (A feat of skill on it's own, as druid pennies vary wildly in shape and size) and then try to knock the stack over with a carefully-tossed pebble, lead fishing line sinker, or chess piece. Players then score the results according to the face-up images on the coins, and sometimes coins can be risked or won as ante. Coins that show the profiles of females are “Princesses”, coins that show male potentates are “Dukes”, old sacred druid trees are “Trunks”, stags are “Horns”, wolves are “Cubs”, dragons are “Snakes”, gods are, well “Gods”, and castles are “Shacks”. The exact rules vary wildly from one group of children to another... Horns could be worthless among the children of one small village, and game-breakers among the kids of another village five miles down the road.*'Crawler hint: Don't sell old those bronze coins you found in the owlbear's nest to the junkman. Keep a pocketful of them to give out to kids in exchange for information.

There's an obscure halfling variant of slapdragon called Wizard's Tower in which face-down playing cards are placed in-between every twenty coins (Which are usually gold or platinum rather than bronze). Players not only are scored by which coins fall face-up but also must try to build a winning hand out of cards that fall face down. It's not a child’s game but rather a very adult pursuit for high-stakes gamblers with an insanely complicated scoring system.

Shuckdevil

The wyrding deck (“Weirding”) is Talonar's equivalent to the tarot. It's cards and symbols are the same as those found in the Deck of Many Things (A DoMT is basically a magical wyrding deck). Wyrding decks are usually used for soothsaying or as wizard's props, but some sailors and prostitutes also use them to play shuckdevil, a raunchy card game in which the player with the worst hand each round must “Give the Deeps their due” and remove an article of clothing. Really hardcore (or drunk) players play on a beach or ship's deck and actually throw the garments into the water. Devout Morganists sometimes play a version called “Feeding the Kraken” in which they remain clothed and loosing hands mean taking a long swig of rum instead.

Devil's Coffin

This morbid Zarkuthi card game is enjoyed by high-stakes gamblers, vampires, wizards, and Zarkuthi expatriates. An empty child's or babies' coffin (Preferably*one stolen from an actual grave) is placed in the center of the table. If you get a good hand of cards, you get to toss one of your cards into the coffin. If you get a bad hand, you have to toss in a coin or other valuable. The first player to run out of cards wins the coffin and all it's contents.

The Church and the Brothel

A dice game similar to craps that uses two seven-sided dice, one white (“The Church”) and one black (“The Brothel”). It's origins are obscure but it's currently popular with soldiers, sailors, prisoners, and hobgoblins.

Fung Tung

A goblin game that involves an old helmet filled with a random number of humanoid teeth that changes from round to round. Players place bets and try to guess the number of teeth in the helmet. Players that can't cover their bets have their teeth knocked out with a hammer and added to the pot. Fung Tung is one of the very few elements of goblin culture to find an audience outside of a dungeon, although humans who play generally enjoy it as a lighthearted party game and use pebbles instead of teeth (And copper pieces, drinks, or kisses for the ante).

Xhung ("Shung")

A very intense and challenging hobgoblin chess-like strategy game. As hobgoblins are a martial culture that's often on the move, there is no board or grid... the game is just played on the ground or any available surface. Playing pieces are usually origami figures. Infantry can move the length of a knife each turn, and cavalry can move the length of an arrow.

Quote from: Gold Roger;780530Well, if we don't use the proficiency bonus, that would defeat the purpose of making the proficiency useful.

My core point was, I don't think bringing in another game, as a sub-game, works, because it involves too much "GM directly manipulating something", or the player having to know how to play the game - after all, that's the reason we have skill rolls, so players can play competent characters with specialist skill sets.

In-game, of course, it's easy, just like any other skills.

QuoteWhat really interests me now is, how did a game of poker become the grand finale of a campaign?

Oh, you know how it is. You're playing Edge of Midnight in the setting's equivalent of Vegas, and you get the Devil arrested on suspicion of murder. Because the souls of the dead can't get to hell, they go to the next best, suitable, place; your character's hotel room. Suddenly, you're in the afterlife business! Because your hotel room isn't very big, you eventually wind up having to rent out a warehouse to keep everyone it.

Meanwhile, the death gods from the other pantheons notice the upstart and challenge you for possession of all your souls. You don't really want them anyway, but you're kinda used to having them around now, so you accept the challenge and, well, it's casino town, so...

- earning (or losing) minor money in taverns, gambling halls and similar settings
- making connections and gathering information in the same settings
- catching cheaters in the act, or maybe even recognizing infamous travelling cheaters on sight alone (assuming that some common knowledge on the gaming scene comes along with the tool proficiency), which might bring in some reward or the favour of someone cheated
- quirky NPCs who demand to be beaten in a game before parting with some adventure-relevant token or knowledge
- the classical game of choice versus the Grim Reaper (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChessWithDeath)

An ancient cult used games as a means to teach adherents the secrets of their order. These games involved puzzle solving, strategy and competition with either another player or a spirit/elemental summoned into the "game engine". The games are elaborate and beautifully crafted including complex boards, playing surfaces, wheels, gears, and ornate pieces.

Successfully beating the game grants the winner a short term boon or spell use. The idea is that repetitive game play will grant the boon for the student's learning. Using a power, spell or boon repeatedly should give the student an edge in learning it.

Various ancient ruins in the world have working copies of these games. Some have been taken and placed in the halls of nobles, or important merchants granted them as gifts to favored Inns along their routes, while others remain undiscovered to this day. The games are known of, and most delight at the opportunity to play them, however only those versed in these ancient games can hope to win them and thereby gain the boons hidden within.

Some games are copies, created by nefarious and evil cults. Losing these games can have severe curses and the most dire of consequences...

This is cool:

http://fakegames.tumblr.com/

Don't forget the appendix on gambling games in the 1E DMG!

Quote from: Warthur;780583Don't forget the appendix on gambling games in the 1E DMG!

Yes! The Slot Machine on page 215 was the first thing I thought of when saw the thread title.

Werent there one or two articles in Dragon on more quick and simple gambling games?

In one of my Albion games, the PCs were at a party where they played a medieval card game, and we actually paused to play the game.  That was a couple of years ago, so I can't actually remember what the game was... I think one of the tarrochi variants.

folks are right that actually playing doesn't really work cos the player doesn't have the skills the PC has.

Its a bit like a bluff/diplomacy check.

So there are 3 resolutions....

i) Play the game and be damnd if we are going to roleplay out social situations with no reference to skills these are just the same.

ii) Play the game but with a skill check and a really good GM who is good enough at the actual game in question to modify his skill to either play worse if the PC mades a great roll or play better if the PC botches - this is VERY HARD.

iii) create a representation of the game within the RPG rules. So if the players are playing poker use poker dice. On the first roll allow hte PC to make a "luck check" if they suceed then they can reroll one of the dice. Then on the Draw make a gaming roll if it suceeds the player can reroll one of the second round rolls. If the PC wants to cheat the player makes a gaming roll and can switch out any one dice.  the GM does hte same for the NCP or just rolls hte dice as normal. Thus the in game version of the game is flavoured by skills but is not just a make a gaming roll ...you win 10 gold.

James bond does (iii) very well splitting longer games like backgammon , chess etc that are central to a number of James Bond movies into 3 phases and having gaming checks at each stage and raising stakes. So in effect you treat the game like a "chase" .

Chess -
The Stakes - The PCs set stakes
The Opening Gambit - each player makes a gaming roll and records the degree of sucess (JB has 4 degrees of sucess + failure)
Raise Stakes - The PCs can opt to riase the stakes meaning the players then get to met them or to fold
The Middle Game - each player makes a gaming roll and records the degree of sucess. You modify the difficultly based on the difference between the Opening roles.
Raise Stakes - again the PCs can opt to raise stakes or fold
The End game - PCs make a final gaming roll based on the new difficulty levels as ascribed from the Middle game sucesses. the best result wins.

Now the thing about these games is they
i) don't introduce a 1 hour slot where only 1 PC can participate
ii) allow the gaming skill to get used rather than relying on player skill
iii) are really good for buildijg tension and drama and introducing roleplay in the stakes phases
iv) resolve quickly with any scale of stake, so a single game or a tournament could be condensed to this format.

I think this one still might have some life to it.


What I've gathered so far:

• Game Sets are a good and easy place to add homebrew material to flesh out the world.


• In a world without TV and videogames, a world where printing and literacy might be rare, games might be one of the foremost types of entertainement in idle hours. A player looking to use his gaming skill will find a way to do so. Thanks to this, gaming and gambling are good alternatives for such routine activeties as information gathering, making allies, earning upkeep or spending your loot.


• Playing a game with Death is a staple and widely known trope that can be expanded into all kinds of direction. An easy variation is playing against devils for damned souls, which further implies that all kinds of extraplanar and mystical creatures might be interested. A game might take the place of a sphynx's riddle or an important modron might test the PC's capability with logic using a game. Playing against demons, slaad or eladrin is propably an exercise in frustration. Another precedent is Tolkiens use of riddles in the hobbit. Dungeons are a dreadfully booring place for intelligent creatures and if you can provide the kind of game it wants, a deal might be cut. Repeated visits just for a game might win you a strong and exotic ally.


• Stakes and extended checks make the use of games more exciting.

You would expect, with ROGs mainly being played bu Gamers, that in game games would crop up a lot. But it does not seem to be the case at all.

I think a large part of it is that most people play RPGs at least for some level of escapism, so playing a character sat playing a game you could easily play yourself doesn't really appeal.

Quote from: jadrax;782894You would expect, with ROGs mainly being played bu Gamers, that in game games would crop up a lot. But it does not seem to be the case at all.

I think a large part of it is that most people play RPGs at least for some level of escapism, so playing a character sat playing a game you could easily play yourself doesn't really appeal.

I think one reason why most dont is because it eats into gaming time possibly needlessly.

That and what do you do when the character is more skilled than the player? It can fall apart in odd ways depending on the players.

Personally I came to RP. Not to play poker or chess. Though Dragonchess is pretty neet. I am fine though with little quickie dice games like the slot machine in the DMG or the other examples there.

Quote from: Ladybird;780527We've tried integrating games into games; in one campaign, my character had earned some benefits from a god of luck, which were intended for the campaign's finale; a poker game.

Problem was, when the scene started, GM dealt the cards, and we... played poker. Properly. Having the GM butt in and manipulate the game directly (Because otherwise, we'd have been there all night, playing poker) kinda killed the mood of it, but there was no other way to really include a luck bonus and have it matter.

So, honestly, +Proficiency to any sort of gaming or gambling check would do fine for me.

An easy way for a luck bonus to work in Poker is simply that for every point of luck bonus you have, you can draw an extra card to make your hand from. If your luck bonus is +2 and you are playing 5-card draw, you initially get seven cards to make your hand from. If you want it to be even more powerful, then you can get extra cards from the draw as well.

The same concept works well enough for Blackjack, Baccarat, Hold'Em, etc.

If you have more skill-based bonuses, then passing your skill check allows you to draw an extra card, with the DC rising by 5 every time. The first extra card is DC15, the second DC20, then DC25, etc. This could work for each hand you play or cumulatively throughout your session at the card table, depending on how powerful your DM wants luck and gaming skill to matter to the outcome.

I always take Snit's Revenge in case I run into a young red dragon.

Quote from: khyber;999149An easy way for a luck bonus to work in Poker is simply that for every point of luck bonus you have, you can draw an extra card to make your hand from. If your luck bonus is +2 and you are playing 5-card draw, you initially get seven cards to make your hand from. If you want it to be even more powerful, then you can get extra cards from the draw as well.

The same concept works well enough for Blackjack, Baccarat, Hold'Em, etc.

If you have more skill-based bonuses, then passing your skill check allows you to draw an extra card, with the DC rising by 5 every time. The first extra card is DC15, the second DC20, then DC25, etc. This could work for each hand you play or cumulatively throughout your session at the card table, depending on how powerful your DM wants luck and gaming skill to matter to the outcome.

Welcome to theRPGsite!

I just abstract it with an ability check. INT vs INT to play the game fair, DEX vs Perception to try and cheat. But watch out, there's a guy in Hommlet who has Expertise in gaming sets...