This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

5e Feat Design....

Started by Marleycat, June 13, 2012, 08:12:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Marleycat

Here ya go...
http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/blog/2012/06/13/feat_taxes_and_bloat  
QuoteA while ago, I talked about feats and some of the pitfalls associated with them, namely feat taxes and feat bloat. This week, I'd like to delve a bit further into the concepts to show you our current thinking about how we plan to rein in feats and ensure they do the job we want them to do.
Feat Taxes: A feat tax refers to a certain category of feats whose function is purely to increase round-by-round damage output by increasing accuracy, damage, AC, saving throws, and defenses in order to maintain pace with the opposition that player characters are expected to face for their level. Monsters have historically been designed to test adventuring parties of particular levels. The higher level/challenge rating the monster, the more powerful the player characters need to be to stand a decent chance at surviving the encounter. Since monsters have generally followed a progression by gaining hit points, gaining greater accuracy, and acquiring more powerful attacks and abilities, PCs need to keep up. In both 3rd and 4th Edition, player characters kept up with monsters by gaining levels in their class, which in turn granted access to new features and powers, and through feat selection. Since some feats nakedly granted bonuses to accuracy, damage, AC, and so on, these feats, for many, became the only feats one could take to ensure character survival over time. Since players deemed these feats critical for character performance, there was no real choice. One could take Weapon Expertise and keep up or not and fall behind.
Due to being aware of this problem, 4th Edition introduced a selection of feats that granted the expected numbers and offered a little something extra to ease the sting of having to make that choice. Rather than shift away from making these feats necessary, however, the upgraded feats simply became even more important and the mechanics-light feats fell further and further into the background. And just to make my point even clearer: to cover accuracy, damage output, and defenses, a character has to spend at least three feats. Many characters didn't make their first real feat choice until 6th level.
From the start, we knew we didn't want to go down the same road again. And so rather than present a slew of must-have feats again, we have delivered nearly all the must-have mechanics through class design. By being a fighter, for example, you are automatically expected to become more accurate and hit harder over time, and so the class delivers these increases. In short, if you want to be more accurate with your weapons, choose a class focused on weaponry.
Having ripped all the feat taxes out of the game lets us explore different types of mechanical options with our feats. Rather than grant player characters a vertical increase in terms of power, it provides a horizontal expansion by offering different options, actions, or ways to make attacks.
Feat Bloat: The other historical problem we have had with feats are their numbers. Both 3rd Edition and 4th Edition have more feats than anyone could reasonably use or want. Most times, feats came into the game as particular exceptions to a rule. The rule in 3rd Edition said you could make one attack of opportunity per round. Combat Reflexes let you make multiple attacks of opportunity. Other times a feat might join the game because of some nifty mathematical trick or some tweak to another existing mechanic, either to improve it or expand its use. Most feats were designed in isolation rather than to support an overarching concept. And thus feats proliferated, spreading through the game at an alarming rate.
As I've mentioned on numerous occasions, our solution to this problem is to never construct feats in isolation but rather to build them to express a particular theme, such as necromancer, sharpshooter, or slayer. By creating feats that reinforce a central concept, we get away from all the microfeats and corner case feats that for many were nothing more than clutter. We come up with a strong concept first and then support that concept through clear mechanical expressions. You'll still be able to pick and choose your feats if you'd like to create your own theme, but the idea is that you'll have a better sense of where to find the feats you need by looking for themes that speak to your character concept.
I don't have a poll for you this week. Instead, I'll leave it to you to discuss the concepts I've explored in the comments below. Thanks for reading!

Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

David Johansen

heh...feats are in and I'm out...okay I was never really in...I mean when they first started talking tight core + options I had my hopes up a little but it didn't last long because they kept right on talking
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Sacrosanct

I actually agree with this part:

And so rather than present a slew of must-have feats again, we have delivered nearly all the must-have mechanics through class design. By being a fighter, for example, you are automatically expected to become more accurate and hit harder over time, and so the class delivers these increases. In short, if you want to be more accurate with your weapons, choose a class focused on weaponry.

I've never really understood why some people throw fits if their thief can't do as much damage in combat as a fighter.  If you wanted to do as much damage as a fighter, play a fighter.  I'm assuming you chose a thief because you wanted to do thiefy things. It's even richer when they just got done whining about pumping up their thief combat skills to match the fighter, just to turn around and bitch that the fighter is no longer worth playing.

But then again, I've made no secret for my preference of niche protection.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

thedungeondelver

Feats were born out of a misunderstanding about why certain classes got certain things in older versions of D&D.  So it's easy to point at the history of the game and say "Ah, feats have always been there," but if you don't (and sorry, "they" didn't) understand why rangers got +level to damage giant-kin, paladins got lay on hands, clerics got turn and assassins got assassinate then suddenly it "makes sense" that "everyone" gets to be "special".

With the net result being that nobody is.
THE DELVERS DUNGEON


Mcbobbo sums it up nicely.

Quote
Astrophysicists are reassessing Einsteinian relativity because the 28 billion l

pryingeyes

Quote from: thedungeondelver;548677Feats were born out of a misunderstanding about why certain classes got certain things in older versions of D&D.  So it's easy to point at the history of the game and say "Ah, feats have always been there," but if you don't (and sorry, "they" didn't) understand why rangers got +level to damage giant-kin, paladins got lay on hands, clerics got turn and assassins got assassinate then suddenly it "makes sense" that "everyone" gets to be "special".

With the net result being that nobody is.

I can't remember, was the 3e design team open about why they created feats? Seeing as 3e Rangers got TWP for free (or did I make that up?) and Wizards got Scribe Scroll for free, the only previous class features that became feats were Weapon Specialization and the other item crafting feats.

Kind of ironic in that the feat system which supposedly helped strengthen and customise Fighters (as they get far more feats than everyone else) made them waste one on their unique feature.

Benoist

Sounds like they are thinking of 5e feats more and more in terms of 3rd ed feats to me, to then explain to us how they're so-not-like 3rd ed feats that it's cool and we're going to eat it up, that it can't end very well from there.

Sacrosanct

the hell...did I just start an avatar meme?

I'm going to have to go watch that movie again now.  I do admit that Ecstasy of Gold is on my Ipod though...
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

David Johansen

They remain an additional class of object which interacts with other classes of objects.  The  problem being that each class of objects increases the complexity of the system exponentially.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Drohem

The Feat Tax thing is only valid if you approach the game as a combat simulator only.

pryingeyes

Quote from: Drohem;548707The Feat Tax thing is only valid if you approach the game as a combat simulator only.

...what?

Not at all - it's the exact reverse. The idea of a feat tax is only invalid if there's no combat at all, basically.

When the choice is between optimize and diversify, you can either solve the problem by making 'optimize' ironically the least optimal choice (no combat at all)  or by making all characters optimal (reduce feat tax).

Making all characters optimal would also decrease super-special characters or powergame-y characters, of course. One person could not force the rules to favour themselves over all others.

Drohem

Quote from: pryingeyes;548708...what?

Not at all - it's the exact reverse. The idea of a feat tax is only invalid if there's no combat at all, basically.

When the choice is between optimize and diversify, you can either solve the problem by making 'optimize' ironically the least optimal choice (no combat at all)  or by making all characters optimal (reduce feat tax).

Making all characters optimal would also decrease super-special characters or powergame-y characters, of course. One person could not force the rules to favour themselves over all others.

The 'problem' of 'Feat Tax' is only a problem if you view feats from an optimization lens.

pryingeyes

Quote from: Drohem;548711The 'problem' of 'Feat Tax' is only a problem if you view feats from an optimization lens.

Ok, that's a more fair way to put it.

You have to realize, though, the people that are anti-Feat Tax are the ones that are anti-optimization.

If you want to keep the feat tax, where players must take certain feats to remain effective, you're in effect forcing optimization unless your game involves significantly less combat.

Drohem

Quote from: pryingeyes;548715If you want to keep the feat tax, where players must take certain feats to remain effective, you're in effect forcing optimization unless your game involves significantly less combat.

I would say that's a matter of perspective as well; i.e., how do you define 'effective,' or 'significantly less combat?'  I'm sure that my definition will be different than yours, as well as different than many other posters here too.

pryingeyes

Quote from: Drohem;548722I would say that's a matter of perspective as well; i.e., how do you define 'effective,' or 'significantly less combat?'  I'm sure that my definition will be different than yours, as well as different than many other posters here too.

I suppose that's a matter of perspective, yes. But if you want your character to be effective in combat (you probably do, unless you're playing an archetype explicitly meant not to be) and if combat in your game has consequences and inevitably or regularly occurs, you're at least somewhat coerced into taking certain feats.

By taking those, you're giving up interesting options that might better define your character or add diversity to play, rather than the bland 'keeping pace' of feat bloat.

Sacrosanct

Quote from: pryingeyes;548725I suppose that's a matter of perspective, yes. But if you want your character to be effective in combat (you probably do, unless you're playing an archetype explicitly meant not to be) and if combat in your game has consequences and inevitably or regularly occurs, you're at least somewhat coerced into taking certain feats.

By taking those, you're giving up interesting options that might better define your character or add diversity to play, rather than the bland 'keeping pace' of feat bloat.

I agree with a lot of this.  I'd also like to add that it becomes a circular problem exacerbated by pressure.  What I mean by this is that if everyone else is optimizing, then there's a pressure that you need to as well or else you get left behind.  Add to this behavior that led to me quitting WoW quite early: If you don't have build X, we don't want you in the group.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.