Quote from: jhkimConversely, though, do you have any issues with me because I do have gay characters in the games I play and the modules I buy and run?

Quote from: Brad;1111262Why would that matter to me whatsoever? The issue here is that some people said they aren't interested in modules that contain these sorts of topics (especially when poorly done) and are then called terrible, bigoted homophobes or whatever. To go even further, the writers are terrible, bigoted homophobes if they don't have gay characters in their modules. The whole thing is fucking ludicrous.

Who's been arguing that? Seriously - I haven't seen anyone say that in the conversation thus far. Is this something in another forum? If so, could you link to the discussion?

As I've seen it, this thread has been the opposite - people complaining about the Essentials Kit module because of the gay gnome kings.

As I said pretty clearly, I don't have a problem with a module that has no gay characters -- and I also don't have a problem with a module with gay characters.

Quote from: jhkimConversely, though, do you have any issues with me because I do have gay characters in the games I play and the modules I buy and run?

Quote from: jeff37923;1111270If they are there as tokens or parody stereotypes, then yes.

Fair enough. I mentioned before that I recently ran a Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG set in Santa Cruz where one of the pregenerated PCs was Ashley McBay, Gay Vegetarian Wiccan Rich Girl. Does that count as a parody stereotype to you?

Personally, I don't have a problem with using stereotypes per se as long as they're also regularly broken.

Quote from: Brad;1111206What if I say I don't want to have gay characters in modules I run at all because I'd rather not inject real-world issues into my fantasy campaign? Does that mean I'm a terrible person?

Yes! You monster!

And I am horrible for not wanting this stuff just tossed in meaninglessly for agenda points.

Why is there a "planet of the lesbian bats" in Albedo? Because Paul thought it was funny and he knew people would come up to Steve at cons and ask him for the details on this planet hes never heard of. Its there as a joke in an otherwise deadly serious RPG. Why was the stealth assassin in the mini adventure gender flipped in the revised edition? Because Paul or Steve thought it would make the assassin more ubiquitous and less likely to be suspected. Its been a few decades since I worked on the stuff. The stuff is there for a reason, even in one case it is a silly reason. Rather than to score agenda points.

Same with the whole He-Man and She-Ra parody adventure in Macho Women With Guns. Its a joke. In a book made of joke. And who would not want to help the valiant SheHer put an end to the tyranny of the corrupt HeHim? :cool: But gasparoonies! They are one and the same? It is true. SheHer is really HeHer, man of indeterminate gender. Get me my fainting couch! :eek:

Quote from: jhkim;1111281Who's been arguing that? Seriously - I haven't seen anyone say that in the conversation thus far. Is this something in another forum? If so, could you link to the discussion?

As I've seen it, this thread has been the opposite - people complaining about the Essentials Kit module because of the gay gnome kings.

As I said pretty clearly, I don't have a problem with a module that has no gay characters -- and I also don't have a problem with a module with gay characters.



Fair enough. I mentioned before that I recently ran a Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG set in Santa Cruz where one of the pregenerated PCs was Ashley McBay, Gay Vegetarian Wiccan Rich Girl. Does that count as a parody stereotype to you?

Personally, I don't have a problem with using stereotypes per se as long as they're also regularly broken.

No. However, your current argument does count as a parody stereotype.

Quote from: Omega;1111285Yes! You monster!

And I am horrible for not wanting this stuff just tossed in meaninglessly for agenda points.

Why is there a "planet of the lesbian bats" in Albedo? Because Paul thought it was funny and he knew people would come up to Steve at cons and ask him for the details on this planet hes never heard of. Its there as a joke in an otherwise deadly serious RPG. Why was the stealth assassin in the mini adventure gender flipped in the revised edition? Because Paul or Steve thought it would make the assassin more ubiquitous and less likely to be suspected. Its been a few decades since I worked on the stuff. The stuff is there for a reason, even in one case it is a silly reason. Rather than to score agenda points.

Same with the whole He-Man and She-Ra parody adventure in Macho Women With Guns. Its a joke. In a book made of joke. And who would not want to help the valiant SheHer put an end to the tyranny of the corrupt HeHim? :cool: But gasparoonies! They are one and the same? It is true. SheHer is really HeHer, man of indeterminate gender. Get me my fainting couch! :eek:

:mad: I have been informed by the Computer, er, the Consortium that humor in Imagination is now a high crime against Progress! and must be purged for The Resistance, lest the flames of thought crimes, er, latent bigotry burst forth as conflagration upon the land.

Please bring said parody materials for correction at the nearest Love & Inclusion Camp. We will be anticipating your stay by increasing the carob rations from 8 oz. to 6 oz. Thank you for your cooperation, citizen!

Quote from: S'mon;1111249Definitely! Well, the contemporary equivalent. Mark Zuckerberg's SJW-Classicist sister wrote an article explaining how Socrates was a Shitlord oppressing people with his words-as-violence. The people who killed him were the Real Victims.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/whats-wrong-with-online-debate-me-culture/2019/08/29/c0ec8aa2-c9ca-11e9-8067-196d9f17af68_story.html

Her central thesis, that internet debates are more about scoring points than anything substantive, and the best approach most of the time is to just avoid them, is valid. She's just wreathed it in hate.

Quote from: Pat;1111312Her central thesis, that internet debates are more about scoring points than anything substantive, and the best approach most of the time is to just avoid them, is valid. She's just wreathed it in hate.

Thanks for that summary, as I did not bother reading it. Sounded like generic "gotta fart a thesis paper now!" grad school salacious contrarianism. But it is nice to know somewhere amid the wading pool of shit there is a chocolate morsel!

Quote from: Opaopajr;1111314Thanks for that summary, as I did not bother reading it. Sounded like generic "gotta fart a thesis paper now!" grad school salacious contrarianism. But it is nice to know somewhere amid the wading pool of shit there is a chocolate morsel!

Wouldn't say that. Her central point is valid, but it's not an original idea, and most of the essay is just cheap shots trying to discredit those she hates -- in other words, she's doing exactly what she's pretending to oppose.

Quote from: Pat;1111312Her central thesis, that internet debates are more about scoring points than anything substantive, and the best approach most of the time is to just avoid them, is valid. She's just wreathed it in hate.

That seems a fair comment!

Quote from: Omega;1111285Same with the whole He-Man and She-Ra parody adventure in Macho Women With Guns. Its a joke. In a book made of joke. And who would not want to help the valiant SheHer put an end to the tyranny of the corrupt HeHim? :cool: But gasparoonies! They are one and the same? It is true. SheHer is really HeHer, man of indeterminate gender. Get me my fainting couch! :eek:

Quote from: Opaopajr;1111310:mad: I have been informed by the Computer, er, the Consortium that humor in Imagination is now a high crime against Progress! and must be purged for The Resistance, lest the flames of thought crimes, er, latent bigotry burst forth as conflagration upon the land.

Please bring said parody materials for correction at the nearest Love & Inclusion Camp. We will be anticipating your stay by increasing the carob rations from 8 oz. to 6 oz. Thank you for your cooperation, citizen!

Heh. I love Macho Women With Guns.

And yeah, I don't get the whole humorless moral outrage over wrong stuff in modules.

Quote from: jhkim;1111357Heh. I love Macho Women With Guns.

And yeah, I don't get the whole humorless moral outrage over wrong stuff in modules.

Oh because 1) It's not humorous 2) I have *no* reason to believe it's intended to be humorless. 3) If someone that is not part of the Woke Church made a *parody* of homosexuals feuding and hiring PC's to kill one another off... am I to believe that somehow that would be well received as "humorous" on its face?

The whole point of thread is the injection of this material into the game/hobby in general is not for representation. It's for political purposes and corporate virtue signalling which today is passed off as marketing.

Which of course they have every right to do. And we have every right to point out how stupid it is, and not buy it, as well as chat about it online. /shrug

Its hard to say really with the gnomes. Its a drop in in a not really serious location. It makes it hard to pin down.

Its even possibly that originally this was a king and queen. And some exec had a SJW panic attack and decided that they could not have a man imprisoning a woman. So poof. Guy on guy. er Gny on gny?

Quote from: Omega;1111387Its hard to say really with the gnomes. Its a drop in in a not really serious location. It makes it hard to pin down.

You'd think that. But then it demands "why do it at all?" If the whole representation thing is "important" - is this the level that oh-so-important "representation standard" rises to? On it's face... that's pretty laughable. If it's supposed to be "serious" - then it's kinda insulting. Maybe both? Either way it doesn't stop it from being pandering dogshit *because* the writer isn't even trying to take their flagship setting serious.

It's like watching a *bad* SNL skit with Jimmy Fallon laughing at their own joke WHILE in the joke... ruining it, then demanding we take their stupid shit "seriously". Can't have it both ways. But then that won't stop them from demonizing you in either take that doesn't simply agree with their stance of the moment.

That's what makes it especially hilarious to watch people on this thread run their excuses for it... it really is funny to me.

Quote from: Omega;1111387Its even possibly that originally this was a king and queen. And some exec had a SJW panic attack and decided that they could not have a man imprisoning a woman. So poof. Guy on guy. er Gny on gny?

That could be true. And equally as disrespectful to the audience, and the spirit of the work. Which brings us back to "pandering dogshit".

Quote from: jhkim;1111357Heh. I love Macho Women With Guns.

And yeah, I don't get the whole humorless moral outrage over wrong stuff in modules.

Maybe you really enjoy being pandered to like you're an idiot? Mind you - I'm not calling you an idiot. I'm saying THEY are. Of course they're assuming you accept the quality of what they're offering as "good". If not, then hey, fair play. Some people really believed that "Every Breath You Take" is a love song from the Police... not a song about obsessive scary creep stalking his object of desire as Sting intended. Doesn't stop people from playing it at their weddings.

I do think WotC are idiots however.

Quote from: tenbones;1111418You'd think that. But then it demands "why do it at all?" If the whole representation thing is "important" - is this the level that oh-so-important "representation standard" rises to? On it's face... that's pretty laughable. If it's supposed to be "serious" - then it's kinda insulting. Maybe both? Either way it doesn't stop it from being pandering dogshit *because* the writer isn't even trying to take their flagship setting serious.

That's what makes it especially hilarious to watch people on this thread run their excuses for it... it really is funny to me.

That could be true. And equally as disrespectful to the audience, and the spirit of the work.

1: Why? That one is obvious in the other modules. Its the bone for the dog to shut it up. Hasborg, or at least someone in dewsign with some leverage, seems to be catching on that going woke is bad for business. Their more supposedly SJW positive recent games have been clever mocking. Meanwhile WOTC desperately wants on the woke wagon like half the industry seems to. I suspect we'd be seeing far worse and very blatant pandering if Hasbro didnt have a tight leash on WOTC.

2: I think some are just unsure due to the total vagueness of the insertions. Or haven't actually read the modules to see just how meaningless nearly all these have been so far. I mean really. Why is this guys son crossdressing as a girl? Or is a girl who wants to be called son, or is a son transformed into a girl or who the fuck knows because it is 100% lacking any explanation?

3: To the SJW cultists everything is disrespectful. It will never be enough no matter if the whole book was wall to wall gay and all the NPCs and their dog fire their Gayzor Eyebeams at the PCs. incinerating them in the self annihilating rainbow of wokeness.

Quote from: Omega;11114331: Why? That one is obvious in the other modules. Its the bone for the dog to shut it up. Hasborg, or at least someone in dewsign with some leverage, seems to be catching on that going woke is bad for business. Their more supposedly SJW positive recent games have been clever mocking. Meanwhile WOTC desperately wants on the woke wagon like half the industry seems to. I suspect we'd be seeing far worse and very blatant pandering if Hasbro didnt have a tight leash on WOTC.

2: I think some are just unsure due to the total vagueness of the insertions. Or haven't actually read the modules to see just how meaningless nearly all these have been so far. I mean really. Why is this guys son crossdressing as a girl? Or is a girl who wants to be called son, or is a son transformed into a girl or who the fuck knows because it is 100% lacking any explanation?

3: To the SJW cultists everything is disrespectful. It will never be enough no matter if the whole book was wall to wall gay and all the NPCs and their dog fire their Gayzor Eyebeams at the PCs. incinerating them in the self annihilating rainbow of wokeness.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/10/23/kmart-removes-childrens-bride-halloween-costume-backlash-australia-store/23845794/

This article is about Kmart Australia pulling a wedding dress costume for kids because 250 angry people felt it was "beyond inappropriate", due to being insensitive to "12 million children" being "sold or married off without their consent" each year.  It's unclear whether the people complaining think that the children or parents are attempting to mock child slavery and / or arranged marriages, or whether they think perhaps these costumes will be purchased by those people purchasing enslaved child brides, or if perhaps they're just excessively sensitive a-holes ignoring context and intent, but my money's on that last one.  How DARE a child want to wear a wedding dress for Halloween, or their parent allow such an offensive costume.  

Never mind that their statistic is off by an order of magnitude (it's 1.2 million globally, not 12 million, and more accurately it's Estimated at being between .5 and 4 million with 1.2 being their best extrapolated figure), never mind that in Australia they have definitively identified roughly 20 human trafficking victims per year and ZERO cases of the trafficking of children in the last 15 years, how dare a child want to wear a pretty wedding dress like her aunt, older sister, or some other loved one, or a parent allow their 4-8 year old child to wallow in ignorance regarding the fate of children in 3rd world countries around the world.

I just thought this nearly the perfect example of how literally anything can be offensive in the mind of the right person.