Quote from: Spinachcat;1109745I like Dragonborn, but who and what goes into my own settings is decided by me. Exclusion of certain elements is a great way to personalize a setting and narrow the focus for the campaign.

BTW, I'd be totally down for an All-Saurian fantasy world.

So then you agree with my premise that you could add Dragonborn to your setting?

Quote from: Brendan;1109868So by this logic, being that I live in Southern California I need all my RPG settings to be 40% Hispanic?  I mean, my most recent gaming group was more like 60-70% Hispanic, so that is the "world I see".

No, that's not what I'm saying.  When you read a fantasy novel and the text doesn't describe the character (or describes them minimally) you probably start with a 'default' that shares more features with you than not.  Even when a character is described as female, I have sort of a Platonic image of a woman in my mind and I start editing features to match the description.  When she is described as having 'flame red hair', my default image gets updated.  If skin color isn't mentioned, my imagination automatically paints them as 'white'.  That's what's normal to me and I generally expect that people would describe how someone is different than my expectation, or different than 'average'.  The thing is, my idea of average is not based on a global average; I don't imagine a East Asian/South Asian person as my default.  

When I think of Mermaids, my images have been informed by popular culture going back to Greek Myths and movies like Splash and the Little Mermaid.  Not being able to recall a single instance of where a mermaid was described as having dark skin, I had never in my life imagined a black mermaid until I was asked to do so.  When building a world, I would have just assumed they all look like my variation of 'normal' or 'default', rather than spending time thinking about how varied and more dynamic my world could be with multiple cultures represented in these types of fantasy races.  The same thing happened with Idris Elba being cast as Thor.  

I don't recall any descriptions of the color of the Æsir or Vanir; Loki is half-giant and I always imagined him as a basically normal looking dude.  But there's no reason they couldn't be blue-skinned a la Krishna.  

When I create a world and I just put people that look like variations of me, that's not INTENTIONALLY excluding other people, so if someone points out that's what I'm doing, I'm actually really happy that I can make the effort to add more.  It makes the world seem more plausible once I consider it from another angle.  

Does that mean you need ANY Latinos in your world?  I don't think so, any more than you need Norse.  But if you have a human race that appears to be a reskin of Vikings, why NOT have Latinos?  Certainly worlds like Matica do; so failing to have them in other parts of Forgotten Realms also seems like an oversight.  I don't like to tell a player that he or she can't play a character that they want to play, especially if it's a very minor thing like skin tone.  Trying to figure out how to include a custom race or monstrous race is harder work, but it is often worthwhile to make the game more enjoyable for the player.  I'm not trying to recreate any epic fantasy tales or re-tell the Lord of the Rings saga.  It doesn't ruin it for me if the Tale of the Lance now has Saurians.  I'm not too worried with remaining 'true to the source material'.  The source material doesn't care, so it's easy to focus on the player's needs first.  When I'm generating the source material, I try to accommodate the player desire's that I'm most aware of.  I try to make interesting cultures that are distinct from each other, so even if I don't think I'd want to play a particular character concept, it is likely supported by my setting without major needs for revision.  

Quote from: Brendan;1109868Also, no one is arguing that gay (demi) humans can't exist in the Realms, or any other setting.  The question isn't "Do they exist?" but rather "HOW do they live?"  Put another way, "How does this fit into the setting?  How does it work in my game?"

I thought the question is, 'what are they doing in THIS adventure'?  As far as how they fit into the world, apparently being king of a group of 40 people is considered so insignificant that it doesn't HAVE to impact the larger world.  This can be a unique situation or it can imply a whole system of investiture that makes Gnomes that much more culturally distinct from Dwarves and Elves.

You're confusing what you do at your table with what is set down by the conceits of a setting you're choosing to play in. The disingenuous of the question was posted upthread several times by me:

1) Make a setting that has the conceits you want to play in and publish it. Don't change the conceits non-contextually to an established setting, or do it sloppily, or for ulterior reasons, and not expect people to balk.

2) If you don't believe #1 - then explain how many blacks and latinos should be present in Bushido RPG, for it to be given the stamp of approval for "Inclusivity."

Conceits matter in the setting as published. Feel free to change it all you want at your table. Publication is different. If you're going to honor whatever has been established by changing it - make it GOOD. Good = whatever your fans are willing to accept. You might fuck up. That's on you.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Why am I, a Asian, having to explain to white-people their own shit? And for them to stop with the self-loathing, flagellation and passive-aggressive bigotry they're laying down on everyone else through their virtue-signalling? If D&D were this racist how did I ever end up here?

Why Galactus? Why?

Quote from: jhkimAs I said, the Realms have *always* been pointedly ahistorical. They have *never* had medieval gender roles or feudal class laws or many other standards of historical societies. A pair like Lady Lord Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn would be borderline incomprehensible to most historical societies -- indeed, huge swaths of the Realms are quite different than real-world history. I think approaching the Realms as if they're historical Earth is foolish and revisionist. It's a fantasy realm, shaped by gods and magic.

Quote from: tenbones;1109962Then are you implying that that ANY attempts at inserting historical assumptions is unnacceptable? That we must use modern day politics to guide our attempts at having fantasy RPG's contain any sense of historical "realism" - that what is considered *normal* is not enough for any sub-culture, race, adult, to engage in without editorial cultural marxism or moral relativism at play?

Inserting historical assumptions that clash with previously-established material about the Realms would be revisionist. Personally, I'd prefer that such revisionism be done in an explicit reboot. Or just work with a more historically accurate setting like Harn, rather than trying to change the Realms.

It's not about current politics, but rather about the established setting. I think it's fair to say that as established in the 1980s and 1990s, the Forgotten Realms had a trend of modernism where they more reflect the social values of the authors rather than medieval values. But that's how the setting was created, so it's the truth in that world. If you don't like how Ed Greenwood created the Realms, then fine -- you're free to change it at your own table. But the original books as published don't have historically accurate medieval attitudes.

Not all setting are or need to be historically realistic. I enjoy playing in historical settings and in some more grounded settings like Harn. But I also enjoy playing in non-historical settings like Narnia or Diskworld.

If you want to make your case for what attitudes towards gay couples should be in the Realms, then please offer them -- but the case should be judged on how well it fits with previously established material.

Quote from: tenbones;1109947There never was some implicit hatred in the realms between ALL orcs and humans! All the Half-orcs are products of loving relationships between progressive Orcs and progressive humans!

Not once is Orc-on-Human/Human-on-Orc rape *ever* shown. Therefore... love.

Edit: For the sarcasm challenged I forgot my obligatory /slant-eye roll.

1: Of course not! Orcs do not hate anyone. They just want to kill everyone. Totally different.

2: Very true! This is, um, planned parenthood. Yes. That is what it is.

3: I don't know? Seems legit to me?

So I am the only one who thinks of the fate of these poor gnomes after the adventurers leave?

Quote from: Omega;1110001So I am the only one who thinks of the fate of these poor gnomes after the adventurers leave?

If WotC is writing them as throwaway tokens, why should anyone treat them any different?

Quote from: tenbones;1109815I wouldn't actually know... since I don't run modules.

Ohhhh. Here I was bothering to respond to you, and had been typing a response to your full post. But now I get it. You're just like one of those internet RPG kids who read books and talk about them and pretend that makes them part of the game. I see now - you don't actually buy and play the thing we're discussing anyway. So it's all just white room theory to you. You're just the right-leaning Internet warrior version of all those left-leaning SJW Internet warriors who also don't play the stuff they complain about. All you care about is ideas and motives because there IS NO ACTUAL PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE for you involved in this topic.

It all becomes clear now.

Enjoy your Critical Role fandom, tenbones. Or don't. What do I care - you're not actually a player of the RPG material we're discussing so why would I even care what you think about it in theory?

Quote from: Shasarak;1109948The player plays one character which, by definition, is a special snowflake.

Or do you just give your players a bunch of Pre-Gens to choose from?

In my current game, I allow:
Dwarf, Hill
Dwarf, Mountain
Elf, High
Elf, Wood
Gnome, Forest
Half-Elf
Half-Orc
Halfling
Human

I do not allow:
Dragonborn
Elf, Drow
Gnome, Rock
Tiefling

That's 9/13 race options open for PC use. If they can't find something there that they want to play, they can play in another campaign.

Your argument that PCs are all special snowflakes and that I'm somehow restricting them to playing pregens is just foolishness.

BTW, your sweet Pathfinder 2e doesn't have dragonborn either.

Since I run most of my campaigns and adventures in a offshoot of Karameikos/Known World. Gnomes are not a PC race normally unless the players make an effort to open up talks and trade with them.

This is why I place my fantasy settings in the omegaverse genre. It shuts up anyone whining about representation when I tell them that all women have been replaced by men who can get pregnant.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1109763You keep on voting with your dollars and see if that changes anything--whether that be less politics in game books or less nasty shit in our food. My bet is that all those "voting with out dollars" types don't even register.

Voting with my dollars changes everything...for me. It's actually really fun and leads to interesting discoveries, with both food and games.

I'm not trying to change the RPG industry. I'm encouraging gamers to support small publishers who don't shove politics into their products instead of feeling their only option is silent dissent while giving their money to assholes.

However I'm not really as single customer because as a GM, I am a multiplier. Many of my players turned into customers and GMs for games I introduced to them to via convention events and home campaigns.

But I agree that all my multiplied actions don't register on the spreadsheets of the big companies. However, they DO register with the small publishers who need every sale to push through their next Kickstarter or justify that next fancy cover.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1109763You can keep buying from the big companies or marginalize yourself to the tiny corner that makes it the way you want it (this applies to any particular corner that fits any particular "you") but it won't really change the directions of the industry.

Dude, I'm a 50 year old headbanger with a wild gray mullet. I've NEVER given a flying fuck about being marginalized in a tiny corner because MY tiny corner is blasting crazy ass metal and we're moshing like lunatics to some band the mainstream never heard of.  

If "mainstream gamers" feel they must gobble down whatever shit WotC feeds them that's sad, but meanwhile my marginalized tiny corner table full of players is gonna be playing something awesomely fun and without compromise.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1109763Me, I'll just buy what I find appealing and accept that it might have some icky stuff in it or be made by people with politics different from mine. Again, this applies to both games and food equally in my eyes.

Do you really enjoy picking shit nuggets out of your corporate approved breakfast?

Is that really a compromise you want to make?

BTW, I'm also 1000% cool with games "made by people with politics different than mine", but I don't want their politics, or my politics, or anyone else's politics in my games. I understand Kevin Crawford and Grim Jim are "liberals", ZakS is an "anarchist", RPGPundit is a "libertarian" and Venger As'Nas Satanis is a "priest of Cthulhu", but none of them put politics IN their games and none of them preach their politics through their games. All of them just make good games.

Quote from: jhkim;1109844I would prefer that people of different political views be able to sit at the game table together and play. But for me, that means accepting that not everything will be done exactly the way you do it. So liberal players don't cry about sexism or racism in another person's game -- and also that conservative players don't cry about tokenism or virtue signaling in another person's game.

Why not just run a game without sexism, racism, tokenism or virtue signalling?

It's not rocket science.

Quote from: Shasarak;1109966So then you agree with my premise that you could add Dragonborn to your setting?

I'm the GM so I can add or subtract anything to my setting when I design it. I rarely add new elements during the campaign because my design phase involves significant time figuring out how the various chosen elements interact and why. Then the campaign is about seeing how the players deal with those chosen elements and their cross-element interactions.

Quote from: Shasarak;1109948The player plays one character which, by definition, is a special snowflake.

True, but they are a "special snowflake" within the context of my campaign setting. All snowflakes may be frozen water, but the flavor options for the water is determined by the list of chosen elements.

Quote from: Shasarak;1109948Or do you just give your players a bunch of Pre-Gens to choose from?

Always for convention games, drop in campaigns and one-shots, and very often for short arc campaigns. It ends the argument "I don't have the book" when I can give them choices and handle mechanics on my side. My players like how I weave their PCs into the setting and with each other so they just jump into the game. My more proactive players make their own PCs, or collaborate more.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1109851For some people, the inclusion of minorities is not a political act; it's just reflecting the world that they see.

Absolutely. It's natural for creations to reflect the world as seen by their creators.

Unfortunately, its 2019 and everything is a political shitfest and all inclusions and exclusions are suspect.

Quote from: Brendan;1109868Also, no one is arguing that gay (demi) humans can't exist in the Realms, or any other setting.  The question isn't "Do they exist?" but rather "HOW do they live?"  Put another way, "How does this fit into the setting?  How does it work in my game?"

That's too smart for this thread. Go away.

Quote from: tenbones;1109815Have all the gay sex you want.

Woot! Dibs on the 18+ twinks! I'm sending them to my friends as Christmas gifts!

Quote from: tenbones;1109817How many Asian Gnomes are required to show Asian Diversity?

42! It's the answer to everything!

Quote from: tenbones;1109817Christian Rock sucks ass for the same reason - despite the often excellent skills of the musicians (lookin at you Stryper). Have some standards.

WASP makes the best Christian rock!

[video=youtube;lq5UQ8gWU-A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq5UQ8gWU-A[/youtube]

Quote from: tenbones;1109990Why am I, a Asian, having to explain to white-people their own shit? And for them to stop with the self-loathing, flagellation and passive-aggressive bigotry they're laying down on everyone else through their virtue-signalling? If D&D were this racist how did I ever end up here?

Because you're one of the coloreds! You have a "POC force field" against SJW criticism. [OMG, 2019 is so insane. I've written more WTF sentences this year than in the last decade.]

It's why I always advocate for "big tents" because sometimes you need an Asian Gnome Cannibal to kick some ass.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1108980Well pieces of another world along with their inhabitants did replace chunks of the FR world. Most of those lands went away in 5e, but the left people and their ideas behind. No, I'm not trying to suggest this as a serious answer, but if you want it to be, then go ahead and use it as such.

Quote from: S'mon;1108854Accepted same sex marriage as an institution wasn't really mentioned as part of the Forgotten Realms though. Really this only started about 3 years ago with Crawford getting control of the productions. A queen or king with a homosexual consort who is tolerated by the public, which has historical precedents and is fairly easy to conceive of, really is not the same thing as gay marriage as an actual societal institution.

Even with Golarion, gay marriage as an actual recognised thing only started appearing around 2012-13.

Quote from: S'mon;1108988Emphasis on the might.

I do remember making some of my liberal, female players happy when I made two of my male NPCs gay in my 4e FR campaign. I don't recall any demands that Gay Marriage Has Always Been A Thing (And We Have Always Been At War With Thay) though.

All you nerds overanalyzing WotC's decision in Faerun of all settings need to read up on yer Reamslore. Ed Greenwood's original campaign had a lot more sexually liberal social mores all over the place (non-monogamous families, legalized sex work, homophobia being rare to the point of nonexistence, etc) but TSR sensors at the time reigned in some of these things. Like brothels being renamed festhalls.

He's made some responses on the matter even back in pre-5e days, like lesbian dating circles using steel roses as a signifier of sexuality.

QuoteMen trying to signal their interest in sex or courtship will often wear an artificial flower perched on one shoulder: a red rose for "I'm looking for courtship," a black rose for "I'm looking for sex," and a steel rose to signal homosexual interest (a device also used by lesbians). In 'my' Realms, there's no stigma attached to homosexual relationships, only to any sexual behaviour that involves exploiting children, and any sexual behaviour that involves force or coercion (please note: WILLINGLY undergoing pain or bondage doesn't count).

I'm pretty sure if there's no real stigma and there are courtship rituals for same-sex couples, that also alludes to marriage as a possibility.

While there is more visible LGBT content, comparatively speaking, in 5th Edition the seeds where always there. We're just watching a full harvest come to bloom. I'm sure some folks can point to the fact that these are online posts, but Greenwood is considered an authoritative source on all things Faerun by fans even if he doesn't write all the sourcebooks for WotC.