Quote from: deadDMwalking;1109851For some people, the inclusion of minorities is not a political act; it's just reflecting the world that they see.

I agree. But we are in a day and age, again, where that is 90% of the time not the case. Its inclusion as a checklist. Nothing more. We've seen it before and will probably see it again in some later age if this current spate of political correctness ever ends.

And this is precisely why it's only token pandering...

So by this logic, being that I live in Southern California I need all my RPG settings to be 40% Hispanic?  I mean, my most recent gaming group was more like 60-70% Hispanic, so that is the "world I see".

Also, no one is arguing that gay (demi) humans can't exist in the Realms, or any other setting.  The question isn't "Do they exist?" but rather "HOW do they live?"  Put another way, "How does this fit into the setting?  How does it work in my game?"

Quote from: tenbones;1109867And this is precisely why it's only token pandering...

Which is why some of us oppose "inclusion".

On the positive side they are looking into making the books accessible to the blind. Which I think is a good thing even if they might be doing it for the virtue points. I'd like to think they aren't. But at this point who knows?

Quote from: Brendan;1109868So by this logic, being that I live in Southern California I need all my RPG settings to be 40% Hispanic?  I mean, my most recent gaming group was more like 60-70% Hispanic, so that is the "world I see".

Also, no one is arguing that gay (demi) humans can't exist in the Realms, or any other setting.  The question isn't "Do they exist?" but rather "HOW do they live?"  Put another way, "How does this fit into the setting?  How does it work in my game?"

Yep.

Quote from: Brendan;1109868Also, no one is arguing that gay (demi) humans can't exist in the Realms, or any other setting.  The question isn't "Do they exist?" but rather "HOW do they live?"  Put another way, "How does this fit into the setting?  How does it work in my game?"

I've been discussing this, pointing out examples of the established gay characters in the Realms and how they are regarded. I think that's how Lady Lord Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn came up.

It appears to me that the Realms is different from historical Europe, and there is little to no prejudice against gay couples. There's no mention of such prejudice that I know of in any established material, and the creator of Forgotten Realms Ed Greenwood has explicitly said that this is the case. For example, there is no sign that Yanseldara and Hawklyn suffered from prejudice or fear for being seen as gay (regardless of whether they really were). tenbones has argued that what Ed Greenwood says isn't necessarily the truth of the Realms, but I don't see that any other Realms writer has established otherwise. So the precedents I know of are:

1) Long-standing couples like Yanseldara and Hawklyn show no fear of prejudice for being perceived as gay.
2) The creator says that such historical prejudice doesn't exist in the Realms.
3) Newly-created couples that are explicitly gay don't appear to have this prejudice towards them.

I think all of these are consistent. Do you have an argument that attitudes towards gay couples is like in historical Europe, or do you have some other conjecture about what attitudes in the Realms are?

Quote from: jhkim;1109927Do you have an argument that attitudes towards gay couples is like in historical Europe, or do you have some other conjecture about what attitudes in the Realms are?

The Realms are a big place.   It would depend on where and when, and probably also on the social status of the couple in question, how out in the open everything was, vs how "wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more", and several other factors.  You know... just like in real life.  

The recent inclusion of gay men within the institution of marriage  is very particular to modern Western life and depends on historical and political antecedents unique to our time and culture.  Just plopping it down in "the Realms" as if its exactly the same thing with no commentary is dumb.  Plopping down a modern gay marriage in ancient Athens would have been shocking and weird.  Hell, a modern heterosexual marriage would be borderline incomprehensible to the majority of human race throughout history.    

If you want to get into the weeds of sexual-familiar relations you need to think about the setting and make whatever system(s) exist in that setting fit.  No one has done this because they don't care about the setting.  They care about virtue signaling and counter signaling.  You either accept this new "improved" realms whole cloth, or you're a bigot.  I mean, why ELSE would you complain?  Obviously this is just "how things are".  We've always had gay marriage just like hetero marriage.  We've always been at war with EastAsia.

There never was some implicit hatred in the realms between ALL orcs and humans! All the Half-orcs are products of loving relationships between progressive Orcs and progressive humans!

Not once is Orc-on-Human/Human-on-Orc rape *ever* shown. Therefore... love.

Edit: For the sarcasm challenged I forgot my obligatory /slant-eye roll.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1109713OK, so you're the one that has to demand the GM allow in a special snowflake for your unique enjoyment. I pity such limited imagination in players.

The player plays one character which, by definition, is a special snowflake.

Or do you just give your players a bunch of Pre-Gens to choose from?

Quote from: tenbones;1109947There never was some implicit hatred in the realms between ALL orcs and humans! All the Half-orcs are products of loving relationships between progressive Orcs and progressive humans!

Not once is Orc-on-Human/Human-on-Orc rape *ever* shown. Therefore... love.

Hah!

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1109715The next time I have need for a Golgothan, it will be named Shasarak, in honor of you.

Its a shame I can not repay the favour for you nameless Gnomish Troll.

How about those half-elves?

Does it means that Elves practice abortion since there are no examples Half-orc/Half-elves? Or are elves implicitely racist since there apparently *aren't* any? Shame! SHAME!

Forgotten Realms is becoming so problematic.

Quote from: jhkimDo you have an argument that attitudes towards gay couples is like in historical Europe, or do you have some other conjecture about what attitudes in the Realms are?

Quote from: Brendan;1109935The Realms are a big place.   It would depend on where and when, and probably also on the social status of the couple in question, how out in the open everything was, vs how "wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more", and several other factors.  You know... just like in real life.

That doesn't seem like an answer to me. Sure, there can be variations, but the first point to variations is to establish what is typical. For when and where - in the Realms I'm assuming 1489 Sword Coast would be the main answer. There might be variations within there, but its possible to generalize. Similarly, one could generalize like how gay couples were regarded in 1489 Europe. There can be regional variations, but it's easy to come up with some basics.

Quote from: Brendan;1109935The recent inclusion of gay men within the institution of marriage  is very particular to modern Western life and depends on historical and political antecedents unique to our time and culture.  Just plopping it down in "the Realms" as if its exactly the same thing with no commentary is dumb.  Plopping down a modern gay marriage in ancient Athens would have been shocking and weird.  Hell, a modern heterosexual marriage would be borderline incomprehensible to the majority of human race throughout history.

If you want to get into the weeds of sexual-familiar relations you need to think about the setting and make whatever system(s) exist in that setting fit.

As I said, the Realms have *always* been pointedly ahistorical. They have *never* had medieval gender roles or feudal class laws or many other standards of historical societies. A pair like Lady Lord Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn would be borderline incomprehensible to most historical societies -- indeed, huge swaths of the Realms are quite different than real-world history. I think approaching the Realms as if they're historical Earth is foolish and revisionist. It's a fantasy realm, shaped by gods and magic.

In the Realms, there are present gods that have dictated rules about good and evil - which makes social mores vastly different than any historical society. I think the attitudes of the gods would be the most important issue for social attitudes.

Quote from: jhkim;1109927I've been discussing this, pointing out examples of the established gay characters in the Realms and how they are regarded. I think that's how Lady Lord Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn came up.

It appears to me that the Realms is different from historical Europe, and there is little to no prejudice against gay couples. There's no mention of such prejudice that I know of in any established material, and the creator of Forgotten Realms Ed Greenwood has explicitly said that this is the case. For example, there is no sign that Yanseldara and Hawklyn suffered from prejudice or fear for being seen as gay (regardless of whether they really were). tenbones has argued that what Ed Greenwood says isn't necessarily the truth of the Realms, but I don't see that any other Realms writer has established otherwise. So the precedents I know of are:

1) Long-standing couples like Yanseldara and Hawklyn show no fear of prejudice for being perceived as gay.
2) The creator says that such historical prejudice doesn't exist in the Realms.
3) Newly-created couples that are explicitly gay don't appear to have this prejudice towards them.

I think all of these are consistent. Do you have an argument that attitudes towards gay couples is like in historical Europe, or do you have some other conjecture about what attitudes in the Realms are?

Since I brought up Yanseldara and Hawklyn as an example of how to do it and make it okay for everyone...

You're now extrapolating it to mean ANY AND ALL instances of it - including dogshit examples like the Gay Gnomish Kings idea is GOOD and acceptable because

1) They show no "fear" or prejudice in their writeup. Well it doesn't show them as actually being GAY either. Nor does it show that they're wearing undergarments. But we're free to make whatever assumptions we want *at our table* because the presentation is left OPEN.
2) Ed Greenwood says so. Much like Dumbledore is Gay and everyone loves that brave posthumous post-publication achievement that means NOTHING for a fictional character after the fact, and completely never shown in the publication. /yank yank
3) That newly created couples that are gay... you mean the capering murderous gay gnomish kings that are trying to hire largely heterosexual PC's to murder one another? Yeah... better wait a second...

This is consistent if you're willing to lower your standards to candy-coated dogshit shaped like cherries is fine to put in your fruit-salad because "it appears nice".

But hey, Coprophilia is a thing! We should introduce that into the Realms too!

Quote from: jhkim;1109954That doesn't seem like an answer to me. Sure, there can be variations, but the first point to variations is to establish what is typical. For when and where - in the Realms I'm assuming 1489 Sword Coast would be the main answer. There might be variations within there, but its possible to generalize. Similarly, one could generalize like how gay couples were regarded in 1489 Europe. There can be regional variations, but it's easy to come up with some basics.

So are you saying the attempts being made today isn't political? I'd just like to know if you're pretending to ignore what we're saying for the purposes of us not talking past one another- or you're ignoring it to be contrarian.

Quote from: jhkim;1109954TAs I said, the Realms have *always* been pointedly ahistorical. They have *never* had medieval gender roles or feudal class laws or many other standards of historical societies. A pair like Lady Lord Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn would be borderline incomprehensible to most historical societies -- indeed, huge swaths of the Realms are quite different than real-world history. I think approaching the Realms as if they're historical Earth is foolish and revisionist. It's a fantasy realm, shaped by gods and magic.

In the Realms, there are present gods that have dictated rules about good and evil - which makes social mores vastly different than any historical society. I think the attitudes of the gods would be the most important issue for social attitudes.

Then are you implying that that ANY attempts at inserting historical assumptions is unnacceptable? That we must use modern day politics to guide our attempts at having fantasy RPG's contain any sense of historical "realism" - that what is considered *normal* is not enough for any sub-culture, race, adult, to engage in without editorial cultural marxism or moral relativism at play?

Because if not - then you need to start telling us "HOW MUCH GAY/RACE/GENDER/OPPRESSION" is enough/not enough in our games? Go!