Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108993There clearly are players that have asked for increased representation of people that they identify with.  That's why we're where we are.  Holding some line that says, Dragonborn are okay, but GAYS??? just strikes me as awfully silly.

And this is where the Woke Ideology gets its foothold in the door. Let's play! "How much representation is required for there to be *enough* LGBT representation?" What is the quality of that representation? Thus far, as far back as 1990(!) there were gay rulers in the Realms. How many more will suffice? How many more are *necessary*? For what reason?

The answer is simple - there is no answer that will ever suffice for the ideologically thirsty. That's precisely why the question is loaded and why its asked.

Because the point of representation in a game is *NON-CONTEXTUAL*. No one in *reality* is being demeaned by not being represented in a work of fiction. That is some intensely entitled narcissistic lunacy. Haven't you read this thread? Where are my Left-Handed Bone-in-The-Nose Jungle Asian Kings in the Dragon's Reach? Where are ANY Asian rulers in the Dragon's Reach? Sword Coast? Asians are real. There are more Asians than gays in the whole world. Let's not talk about Asian gays - where is their specific representation? What about left-handed Asian gays? After we settle that... then we'll move to the next "thing" that's not represented. None of which has any real context to the material.

And yet... we're led to believe it matters in some manner of importance.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108993For lots of good reasons the default of D&D worlds is that men and women are equally capable adventurers without regard to historical norms; especially if magic is equally innate and generally BETTER than martial power, that makes a lot of sense.

Well that's easy. Men/Women - that's 100% of the population. What does that have anything to do with who is sexually attracted to whom? D&D doesn't model the act of sex. And fortunately we can do whatever we damn well please at our tables.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108993Likewise, when your most immediately pressing problem is whether your village is prepared to survive the next scheduled dragon assault, stoning people for putting their private parts inside people with the same private parts doesn't seem like it makes sense.

Should we outlaw any analog culture whose historical cultural practices are culturally anathema to modern Western society? Is that some kind of suggestion? I'm not sure what the point is getting at?

I mean - I'm not saying you can't have that stuff in there, I've run campaigns that started all the PC's as slaves in Thay... and treated them *horribly* with the whole first 5-levels being about setting up a huge slave revolt and escape, that post 5th level turned into a war that ultimately destroyed Thay and Szass Tam and his undead/gnoll hordes.

What are you suggesting we set the conceits of a setting to sell to? A small demographic with specific interests? Or a larger demographic with more general interests that you leave open to interpretation? One doesn't mean you hate the other. And one isn't obligated to support the other either.

Quote from: tenbones;1108996D&D doesn't model the act of sex.

Thank Xenu for the comprehensiveness of GURPS! Roll Sex Appeal, possibly Carousing followed by Erotic Arts (maybe an HT roll depending on duration), calculate fatigue loss and call it a night.

We don't talk about the fan-made "GURPS Sex" supplement...

Quote from: jeff37923;1108388I've bought the 5E Essentials Kit and will read through it when I have time so that I can comment more on this hot button subject......

OK, I've finally had enough time to read the short adventure and the two gnome kings aren't that meaningful in context. Their entire "kingdom" consists of about a score of subjects, they are all tinker gnomes pretty much, and worrying about perpetuating their line is pointless because their lifestyle will result in an eventual pocket-sized gnomish genocide (they are manufacturing minor magic items in a wild magic zone).

The writing of the 4 page adventure "Gnomengarde" is pretty bad. Honestly, the token gay kings are not nearly as bullshit as the Mimic (Int 5) which is stalking and eating the gnomes in a very intelligent and clever manner (that the attack which triggered the gnome king's madness came when this medium creature was disguised as a rug is just icing).

Exactly. This is what I noted right off. Their being gay is meaningless. They are kings of what? That's right. A small workshop. Of recluses. (at least they have about 50/50 population spread for gender somehow.)

But as noted earlier and in another thread. It could be this blankness as it were was intentional. "make of it what you will" Like we did at the start of the thread.

This is definitely inclining me to go with "gnome madness" angle.

Quote from: jeff37923;1109065OK, I've finally had enough time to read the short adventure and the two gnome kings aren't that meaningful in context. Their entire "kingdom" consists of about a score of subjects, they are all tinker gnomes pretty much, and worrying about perpetuating their line is pointless because their lifestyle will result in an eventual pocket-sized gnomish genocide (they are manufacturing minor magic items in a wild magic zone).

LOL

I call dibs on "Pocket-sized Gnomish Genocide" for my folk metal cover band.

Quote from: jeff37923;1109065The writing of the 4 page adventure "Gnomengarde" is pretty bad. Honestly, the token gay kings are not nearly as bullshit as the Mimic (Int 5) which is stalking and eating the gnomes in a very intelligent and clever manner (that the attack which triggered the gnome king's madness came when this medium creature was disguised as a rug is just icing).

Out of an academic interest in "things done poorly that annoy people in RPGs": what's bullshit about the Mimic?

Quote from: jeff37923;1109065The writing of the 4 page adventure "Gnomengarde" is pretty bad. Honestly, the token gay kings are not nearly as bullshit as the Mimic (Int 5) which is stalking and eating the gnomes in a very intelligent and clever manner (that the attack which triggered the gnome king's madness came when this medium creature was disguised as a rug is just icing).

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1109187Out of an academic interest in "things done poorly that annoy people in RPGs": what's bullshit about the Mimic?

From the context, that the mimic is acting more intelligently than jeff37923 thinks it should for its Int 5.

But Int 5 is not that low; most animals are lower (ape has 6, baboon has 4; most predators have 2 or 3). I imagine its ability to mimic objects is instinctive (so it doesn't imagine something that might plausibly be in the room, but appears as something it's seen, perhaps even having an ancestral memory of things it might mimic) but Int 5 would probably be sufficient to remember which things fooled its victims better in a given room (and it's CR 2, so easily able to survive being spotted as out of place by commoners to get that experience).

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1109187Out of an academic interest in "things done poorly that annoy people in RPGs": what's bullshit about the Mimic?

Quote from: rawma;1109199From the context, that the mimic is acting more intelligently than jeff37923 thinks it should for its Int 5.

But Int 5 is not that low; most animals are lower (ape has 6, baboon has 4; most predators have 2 or 3). I imagine its ability to mimic objects is instinctive (so it doesn't imagine something that might plausibly be in the room, but appears as something it's seen, perhaps even having an ancestral memory of things it might mimic) but Int 5 would probably be sufficient to remember which things fooled its victims better in a given room (and it's CR 2, so easily able to survive being spotted as out of place by commoners to get that experience).

The intelligence is a part of it, but it is a volume problem. Mimic's are amorphous and can shape themselves into chests, barrels, thick walls, chest of drawers, and other solid furnishings. I have trouble imagining a mimic shaping itself into something like a chair, stool, or rug because the volume of those objects is mostly empty space or too thin to house a mouth + digestive tract (vacuole?) capable of eating a medium sized creature. The writer of that adventure seems to have read the monster description of a mimic and used the idea without fully understanding what the monster is or is used for in adventures by Dungeon Masters.

Quote from: jeff37923;1109207The intelligence is a part of it, but it is a volume problem. Mimic's are amorphous and can shape themselves into chests, barrels, thick walls, chest of drawers, and other solid furnishings. I have trouble imagining a mimic shaping itself into something like a chair, stool, or rug because the volume of those objects is mostly empty space or too thin to house a mouth + digestive tract (vacuole?) capable of eating a medium sized creature. The writer of that adventure seems to have read the monster description of a mimic and used the idea without fully understanding what the monster is or is used for in adventures by Dungeon Masters.

Ahhhh. Got it. I grok that -- attention to detail and internal consistency. Thanks!

Quote from: jeff37923;1109207The intelligence is a part of it, but it is a volume problem. Mimic's are amorphous and can shape themselves into chests, barrels, thick walls, chest of drawers, and other solid furnishings. I have trouble imagining a mimic shaping itself into something like a chair, stool, or rug because the volume of those objects is mostly empty space or too thin to house a mouth + digestive tract (vacuole?) capable of eating a medium sized creature. The writer of that adventure seems to have read the monster description of a mimic and used the idea without fully understanding what the monster is or is used for in adventures by Dungeon Masters.

This one is actually easy to explain. Kinda. Maybee...

All the mimic has to do is shape its extra mass into mimicing the floor or other objects if it wanted to appear as something small.

But more importantly. Remember that the mimic is naturally mostly a hollow space. Compacted its not all that big so it can assume shapes like chests and chairs within limits. Then it just has to grapple the prey and cram them into its maw. So it may be it is being used right here. It is described as mimicing a barrel, and a rug. Two things that are reasonable. A chair is probably reasonable too within limits.

The main problems are that the "king" just freaked and holed up in his room and did not tell anyone else. This place is a ruin waiting to happen.

Quote from: Omega;1109214This one is actually easy to explain. Kinda. Maybee...

All the mimic has to do is shape its extra mass into mimicing the floor or other objects if it wanted to appear as something small.

But more importantly. Remember that the mimic is naturally mostly a hollow space. Compacted its not all that big so it can assume shapes like chests and chairs within limits. Then it just has to grapple the prey and cram them into its maw. So it may be it is being used right here. It is described as mimicing a barrel, and a rug. Two things that are reasonable. A chair is probably reasonable too within limits.

I still struggle with the volume. Spreading out to a 10' square rug just makes the volume very thin.

Quote from: Omega;1109214The main problems are that the "king" just freaked and holed up in his room and did not tell anyone else. This place is a ruin waiting to happen.

Well, that and the king was attacked in his throne room by the mimic when it was a rug. How do you not notice a new rug?

"The mimic can use its action to polymorph into an object or back into its true, amorphous form. Its statistics are the same in each form." I don't think it's bound by conservation of volume, conservation of internal organs or even conservation of mass.

Quote from: Omega;1109214The main problems are that the "king" just freaked and holed up in his room and did not tell anyone else. This place is a ruin waiting to happen.

The king might have thought, "Huh, somebody put in a new rug. I'll have to ask about that." and barely escaped with his life based on being missed by its initial pseudopod attack. Or asked one of his subjects about it and ran away when that subject was killed. And either way is hiding in his room because of horror, guilt and the paranoid certainty that, if he opens the door at all, the mimic will enter his room as a spoon on a tray of food or an envelope in the daily mail or an extra roll of toilet paper, whether or not mimics could actually mimic any of those objects (he failed his Nature check, or Arcana check, or whatever would tell you about mimics, or didn't even try).

Maybe his gayness protected him; his stereotypical flair for interior decoration warned him that the rug that would look innocuous to a straight ruler was actually a terrible danger, and he fled to his room in horror, revulsion and shame that his partner, his soul mate, could have approved such a hideous thing (although the other king was unaware of it). If he lives through the adventure, he will be starting a podcast "Queer Gnome Eye for the Straight Adventurer".

(I haven't actually seen the adventure; sorry if I've inferred something incorrect from the earlier posts.)

Quote from: tenbones;1108996And this is where the Woke Ideology gets its foothold in the door.

And in the 1950s someone could have written "And this is where the Communist Ideology gets its foothold in the door," if the gnomes instead ran a socialist collective.

This overreaction is ridiculous. The evil lesbians and gays will not be taking over the nation because a couple of fantasy gnome kings are affiliated with them. It will not snowball into something meaningful because it's outright silly.

Quote from: rawma;1109221Maybe his gayness protected him; his stereotypical flair for interior decoration warned him that the rug that would look innocuous to a straight ruler was actually a terrible danger, and he fled to his room in horror, revulsion and shame that his partner, his soul mate, could have approved such a hideous thing (although the other king was unaware of it). If he lives through the adventure, he will be starting a podcast "Queer Gnome Eye for the Straight Adventurer".

(I haven't actually seen the adventure; sorry if I've inferred something incorrect from the earlier posts.)

I know that you are just kidding, but that kind of parody is something that I think would want to be avoided if the character inclusion was supposed to be taken seriously and not a stereotype.

Quote from: Mistwell;1109223And in the 1950s someone could have written "And this is where the Communist Ideology gets its foothold in the door," if the gnomes instead ran a socialist collective.

This overreaction is ridiculous. The evil lesbians and gays will not be taking over the nation because a couple of fantasy gnome kings are affiliated with them. It will not snowball into something meaningful because it's outright silly.

Nice strawman.