So now a game that depicts a fantasy version of medieval Europe is bad because most of the pictures in the book are of white males. Got it.

Quote from: Brad;1108513So now a game that depicts a fantasy version of medieval Europe is bad because most of the pictures in the book are of white males. Got it.

And why don't they complain that Bushido doesn't have enough Whites or Blacks in them? Gee I wonder why that is?

Quote from: tenbones;1108508That's why I respect Blue Rose. They created the setting specifically with LGBT conceits in mind. That is how you do it. You don't have to be LGBT to engage with it. The system is fine. If someone ran it - I'd play the shit out of it - in context with its setting.

But the Forgotten Realms were created with a libertine outlook that was inclusive of LGBT. By design, the setting is a deliberate contrast with the marriage traditions of historical Europe -- including same-sex marriage and polyamorous marriage. Here's the creator Ed Greenwood talking about LGBT characters in the Forgotten Realms:

Quote from: Ed GreenwoodFolks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay.

Note that he's not just talking about historically-parallel closeted gay - but specifically openly gay.

If you're playing in a historical medieval Europe setting, then yeah, LGBT characters will usually have to be hidden or closeted in their behavior. But the Forgotten Realms aren't historical Europe. I'm not sure, but my impression is that Greyhawk is closer to medieval Europe, though there are still a huge number of changes and I'm not sure specifically about attitudes regarding LGBT people in Greyhawk.

I do believe that characters should fit the setting. If it's a historical medieval Europe setting, then an openly married gay couple would be out of place. But in the Forgotten Realms, the opposite is true. It's established that there are open same-sex marriages, so if there weren't any among NPCs, then that would be failing to match the context of the setting.

In what way is a beefcake + cheesecake cover specifically an appeal to "white heterosexual cis-gender males" Just because they're white, or...? I'm fairly confident that images of attractive, confident heroes transcends ethnicity, gender and sexual preference. I'm also not sure that "pandering" is being used correctly in this context at all.

I'll be honest, obvious culture of the creators and the setting aside, I just don't understand where deadDMwalking is coming from at all. What would the "ideal" art and representation be that appeals to everyone at the same time and makes every demographic feel appreciated?

Quote from: jhkim;1108526Note that he's not just talking about historically-parallel closeted gay - but specifically openly gay.

Sounds like 100% retroactive bullshit to make money.

Quote from: tenbones;1108509That means you could self-impregnate!!! Now THAT is how you fix the dwindling Elf-population problem in the Realms.

"Well guys, I'm gonna turn in. I'll be in my tent, uh... meditating..."

Quote from: Antiquation!;1108423LOL! I can't decide whether that's tragic or hilarious!

Realistic.

Quote from: Brendan;1108530Realistic.

Too true. Though, I wonder if Seattle elves also paint all the crosswalks rainbow-colored during festival season.

Quote from: Brad;1108528Sounds like 100% retroactive bullshit to make money.

I can't say for sure what the setting's creator had in mind from the outset; but to me it smells like an attempt to ride the current wave, and remain the default setting for WOTC D & D.

Quote from: Brad;1108528Sounds like 100% retroactive bullshit to make money.

   No, I think Greenwood's on the level here. I remember hearing years before the current phase of the [strike]Apostasy of the West[/strike] Sexual Revolution that Greenwood had had to tone down the Realms for publication, and he had Elminster genderswapping as early as 1994 (at least, that's when it made it into print).

Quote from: jhkim;1108526But the Forgotten Realms were created with a libertine outlook that was inclusive of LGBT. By design, the setting is a deliberate contrast with the marriage traditions of historical Europe -- including same-sex marriage and polyamorous marriage. Here's the creator Ed Greenwood talking about LGBT characters in the Forgotten Realms:

Note that he's not just talking about historically-parallel closeted gay - but specifically openly gay.

And now you make my point for me: THE VAST MAJORITY OF US ARE NOT L-G-B-or-T. I treat them like people with special interests, nothing more. I'm not obligated to buy into those interests. I fully accept many among them have chosen to form their own in-group. That in-group DOES NOT INCLUDE ME as it is dependent on inclinations I have *zero* amounts of. It makes perfect sense for someone to create a fictional setting representing the fantasies of that in-group to roleplay in with whatever conceits emerge from that. It doesn't mean I have to accept their interests inserted into things I consume that are already established.

Unfortunately for Ed, we'll never know what his table-version of the game was *supposed* to be. Nor do I hold Ed Greenwood up as some great arbiter of culture. I'm PERFECTLY fine with the idea of playing in Ed's libertine LGBT revisionist wonderland view of his setting - but there is a good reason that never came out of editorials in the early 80's when gaming was still relatively in its infancy.

And this is PRECISELY why Blue Rose stands apart from what is *established* in the Forgotten Realms. If you were a Blue Rose fan - and Blue Rose achieved the same level of recognition and play that the Realms did, and some asshole writers came in and started making all the LGBT character's straight and hetero, or changed their race or some other stupid shit, would that be okay with you? It wouldn't be okay with me for the exact same reason I don't think it's okay with the Realms. Or are you going to say that's a different scenario?

But hey! This is the New D&D. And I submit it's their's to do with what they will. I'm a whale of RPG consumption. I literally spend thousands of dollars on gaming products annually. It's their loss, not mine. I don't need their *weak* political drivel as a third-appendage inserted into my gaming products.

Go big or go home. Want two gay gnome kings? Well create an adventure path where two gay gnomes form an actual army and conquer and establish a kingdom where they do the whole LGBT rights thing. Then have the module respond in kind with the people they screw over in establishing that kingdom. Then the curious attempts at maintaining that kingdom... and take it seriously. As opposed to being this silly shit they're tossing out there.

The reality is that they can't do it because they don't have the balls or skill to do it in a way that will stand up. And they know it. And those that do understand why - know what a total shitshow it would turn into by conceit of trying to portray it with any amount of realism - because it will simply show that being L-G-B-or-T doesn't matter when it comes to actually ruling a kingdom. It matters in maintaining it and it will paint the so-called "inclusive" community to be every bit as barbaric and inhumane as *every* real gay/bi ruler in history that had to go through the same shit.

And unless Ed Greenwood has been sniffing a lot of glue these days - he knows this too. Which is why he neatly (or maybe against his will), along with his editors, skipped all that stuff in the final outing.

Quote from: jhkim;1108526If you're playing in a historical medieval Europe setting, then yeah, LGBT characters will usually have to be hidden or closeted in their behavior. But the Forgotten Realms aren't historical Europe. I'm not sure, but my impression is that Greyhawk is closer to medieval Europe, though there are still a huge number of changes and I'm not sure specifically about attitudes regarding LGBT people in Greyhawk.

Again you make my point. The Realms as published isn't GREENWOOD'S version EITHER. It's being changed further (whether it's closer or futher from Greenwood's vision is moot to me, since I don't really care about Greenwood's opinions) from what has been established. This is precisely why Blue Rose *should* exist.

It strikes me that you, and perhaps others, confuse the real reasons that "inclusivity" seems to be limited specifically to inserting LGBT-interest into content as "not political" when it's pretty obvious it is. The arbitrariness is likewise fairly obvious in WHO within the Intersectional Oppression stack gets chosen to be represented and who doesn't without context to the material. That *always* seems to get glossed over.

Quote from: jhkim;1108526I do believe that characters should fit the setting. If it's a historical medieval Europe setting, then an openly married gay couple would be out of place. But in the Forgotten Realms, the opposite is true. It's established that there are open same-sex marriages, so if there weren't any among NPCs, then that would be failing to match the context of the setting.

This has *nothing* to do with the published material. At no point have *I* ever said anything remotely to this, or even alluded to this. PC's can make nearly anything they want as long as it's appropriate to the setting - which for me usually is limited to regional stuff. Like I don't allow people to play Githyanki in my Sword Coast game set among the Shadow Thieves of Amn or something. I do not care what my PC's want their characters to bang - and I always accomodate that within reason based on the situation at the table. I do not require or desire that to be explicit in published material unless it's overtly part of the setting.

Call the spade a spade please. Revisionism is what is happening here. The most glaring thing is it comes off as condescending in its representation. As if being LGBT - I'd want to be represented by two bitchy male gay gnomes trying to murder one another by hiring a bunch of PC's who are likely hetero... Jesus... if that's what it takes to have "good representation" - then I question your entire point of questioning me.

Quote from: Brad;1108513So now a game that depicts a fantasy version of medieval Europe is bad because most of the pictures in the book are of white males. Got it.

Greyhawk is not fantasy Europe - or at least, not exclusively.  The Book of Artifacts is not set in a specific setting so could not be a proxy for Europe.

Quote from: jhkimNote that he's not just talking about historically-parallel closeted gay - but specifically openly gay.

Quote from: Brad;1108528Sounds like 100% retroactive bullshit to make money.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1108535No, I think Greenwood's on the level here. I remember hearing years before the current phase of the [strike]Apostasy of the West[/strike] Sexual Revolution that Greenwood had had to tone down the Realms for publication, and he had Elminster genderswapping as early as 1994 (at least, that's when it made it into print).

Yup. tenbones mentioned the lesbian couple Lady Lord Yanseldara and Vaerana Hawklyn -- who date at least back to 1996 when they were featured in one of the Forgotten Realms novels ("The Veiled Dragon"), and possibly much earlier. They might have dated back to the 1987 Campaign Set. The Realms had supposedly been Greenwood's imaginary world since before role-playing in them -- like Tekumel for M.A.R. Barker.

I'm still waiting for my Asian Gnome representation! Where is the outcry. Don't give me that Korobokuru shit.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108538Greyhawk is not fantasy Europe - or at least, not exclusively.  The Book of Artifacts is not set in a specific setting so could not be a proxy for Europe.

Are you implying the majority of Greyhawk is not clearly informed by European folklore, history, and mythology cribbed from American and European sci-fi and fantasy?

You do realize Greyhawk is D&D right? Titles, sovereign nomenclature, flora and fauna - even the supernatural variety. Pretty much majority European OR co-opted foreign things lensed by European folklore. Thats a mighty small pinhead you're dancing on.