Quote from: Omega;1108453WOTC pulled a LOTR gag and cherry picked a comment from an old source. Essentially, depending on the source Corellon could be male or female. I believe 2es Complete Elves. sooooo. WOTC gender swapping elves! Because... Diversity!

Note that any elf can pick this one up. Including Drow. PC elves can select it at chargen.

It's not cherry picking, it's literally the sole defining characteristic of Corellon Larethian, from the very start (1e's D&DG). Beyond the shifting sex, there's literally nothing unique about him; he is almost a caricature of a bland generic elfgod.

Though if the power is about switching between male and female, they are choosing to fixate on a narrow aspect of his nature, because Corellon Larethian can also be neither or both at once.

Quote from: jeff37923;1108385I gotta say, when you dubbed yourself a Survivor, I immediately heard Blue Oyster Cult's song "Sole Survivor" playing in my head.

I was thinking David Hassilhoff's song Survivor for Kung Fury. :cool:

Back on topic.
There was that odd transgender-ish Draconian in one of the Dragonlance modules way back. So there you go.

Quote from: jeff37923;1108388I've bought the 5E Essentials Kit and will read through it when I have time so that I can comment more on this hot button subject......

I think you'll probably have the same reaction I did. That its totally meaningless to the adventure. It really is just... there... and nothing else.
That is how alot of these are in the modules. Just... there... and nothing else. Esher and Strahd in Curse of Strahd being exceptions so far.

Quote from: jhkim;1108395Actually, I take that back. It's in the original entry for Corellon in Deities and Demigods (1980). From page 106:

They are gods afterall. A few others can do that as well. Raven could appear as anything, even the Moon. Hotoru allways assumes the likeness of the chief of the tribe he appears to. Which implies he will appear female if the chief is. Tobadzizinti is stated as usually appearing as male, but can shapechange. Girru is another like that. There are more if one knows the backgrounds of various gods and pantheons D&D refferences. Loki for example.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1108405So, wait. Does the sex change come with all the reproductive features involved? Or are elves so blessed sterile/barren? There are some interesting implications there. Perhaps this is too off-topic for the thread and deserves its own topic, then again I don't feel too bad considering the bulk of the thread content.

It says they can change gender. So yes that is a complete sex change, at will. Once each morning if so desired.

Quote from: Pat;1108456It's not cherry picking, it's literally the sole defining characteristic of Corellon Larethian, from the very start (1e's D&DG). Beyond the shifting sex, there's literally nothing unique about him; he is almost a caricature of a bland generic elfgod.

Though if the power is about switching between male and female, they are choosing to fixate on a narrow aspect of his nature, because Corellon Larethian can also be neither or both at once.

Right. I re-read my old Deities & Demigods and there it is way back at the start. Su addendumed my comment to make note of that and someone else pinned it down as well.

And it is cherry picking as WOTC had to hunt to find the only fantasy D&D god specifically stated to be either or neither. Though as said. I am fairly sure it is refferenced in Complete Elves.

Quote from: Omega;1108467Right. I re-read my old Deities & Demigods and there it is way back at the start. Su addendumed my comment to make note of that and someone else pinned it down as well.

And it is cherry picking as WOTC had to hunt to find the only fantasy D&D god specifically stated to be either or neither. Though as said. I am fairly sure it is refferenced in Complete Elves.

Ambiguous or changeable sex is a fairly common divine attribute, from many Hindu gods to Loki. And there were traces earlier in 2nd edition: Forgotten Realms Adventures, the first hardcover released after the 2e core, made it very explicit that sex was optional for all gods, and the art reflected that by randomly mixing up which gods appeared as women and which appeared as men.

Though while the new power draws explicitly references those old myths via Corellon Larethian, it sounds like it's more based on modern gender identification rather than ancient legends.

Quote from: Pat;1108471Ambiguous or changeable sex is a fairly common divine attribute, from many Hindu gods to Loki. And there were traces earlier in 2nd edition: Forgotten Realms Adventures, the first hardcover released after the 2e core, made it very explicit that sex was optional for all gods, and the art reflected that by randomly mixing up which gods appeared as women and which appeared as men.

Though while the new power draws explicitly references those old myths via Corellon Larethian, it sounds like it's more based on modern gender identification rather than ancient legends.

Yeah, I'd say there's a 95% chance that current Seattle values had more to do with the inclusion in Mordenkainen's, than it just being a nod to the old school source books.

Considering the timing. Was there any doubt it was not there just as a PC bone to the dogs?

Quote from: Omega;1108477Considering the timing. Was there any doubt it was not there just as a PC bone to the dogs?

Is it not more like a tribute to the faithful ?

Quote from: S'mon;1108408They're Seattle elves. They don't reproduce.

   You've hit on one of the reasons I was asking about families with children last year.

Quote from: tenbones;1108342For whose benefit is this? I'm not being facetious. I'm seriously asking - for WHOM does this benefit? If *I* do not have nor need any particular identity representation requirement of my own to be present within the context of any given RPG I myself don't write - what purpose does it serve other than the emotional virtue signalling of those in the majority denomination?

It doesn't have to be about you.  

There are a lot of people who find themselves isolated from others like themselves because they're part of a specific uncommon minority or an uncommon mix of various minority statuses.  Perhaps if they were confident enough it wouldn't matter to them to see people they can easily identify portrayed in the fantasy they consume, but that doesn't mean it doesn't.  

Even if you want to decry it as 'pandering', the fact is my specific demographic (white hetero-sexual cis-gendered male) has been pandered to in fantasy for a long time.  

I've just picked a pick at random from my bookshelf - AD&D 2nd Edition Book of Artifacts.  I have NO IDEA what art is in the book but I'm going to find out.  I'm remarking on any picture that includes a person but not the black & white pictures that depict an object only.
 
Cover: Appears to depict a caucasian male and female.  The male has no shirt (beefcake) the female has a deeply cut shirt revealing all of her cleavage, knee high boots and a loincloth.  I'd consider this to be 'fan service' aimed at my demographic.
Page 8: Black & White: fat man
Page 12: Black & White: face obscured by a veil.  The features suggest female.
Page 22: Full Color: Baba Yaga - depicted as an old crone who's sex is not readily apparent
Page 28: Black & White: a coin with a veiled face.  This one is more obviously female.  
Page 34: Full Color: Hand and eye of Vecna
Page 55: Full color: Four people are being attacked by a swarm of bees.  One is a black human male; the other male figure is a barbarian with impossibly muscled arms and legs.  I would NOT consider it fan-service for women.  There are two female figures, a half-elf and a dwarf, I suspect - neither appears to be highly sexualized.
Page 59: Black & White: a party of human male (?), gnome (?) male, and female dwarf.  None are overtly sexualized
Page 66: Full Color: Orb of Dragonkind depicting one of the Elven Kings from Dragonlance.
Page 68: Black & White: A party of adventureres, it appears to be two males and two females.  One of the males appears to be an Elf with long hair.
Page 72: Black & White: A man being eaten by goo.
Page 76: Black & White: A man who is of extreme advanced age.
Page 95: Full Color: A roman centurion
Page 108: Black & White: A bearded figure (human, dwarf) mixing potions
Page 109: Black & White: A dwarf priest at an anvil alter
Page 117: Black & White: Two males (humans, gnomes?) stealing eggs from a large bird
Page 121: Black & White: A male human reading a magical tome
Page 126: Black & White: A male elf with staff and human female wizard with wand dueling
Page 129: Black & White: A male sitting in a magical library
Page 130: Black & White: A female in a magical library !!!
Page 132: Black & White: An older figure of indeterminate gender (probably male)
Page 134: Black & White: A male human reading tomes
Page 135: Black & White: A female reading a tome
Page 151: Black & White: A party of five (3 males, 2 females) stepping through a portal where two male orcs are marching
Page 156: Black & White: Two male warriors appear to be fleeing an earthquake/flood.  Another male figure is driving a wagon; two women look down from the windows of an upper floor


Okay, after reviewing the book art it is pretty clear that USUALLY any picture that could be ANYONE is a white male (ie, all the pictures of a single person not doing crazy adventuring things).  By the time I was nearly done, I was surprised to see female characters depicted just doing normal things like reading a book.  Compared to other 2E books, there was less fan service than I might have expected, but it's also possible that they were more 'woke' about how much sexual imagery they included.  As far as minorities, there was one person that didn't appear to be caucasian.  Even if you exclude the black & white figures, there isn't much representation of anyone that isn't white - definitely no Asians and no non-white girls.

Quote from: jhkim;1108419Just to check that I am understanding what you are saying here... What I understand is that if you only want LGBT characters if they contextually matter - but you can't think of any cases where it would matter. Thus, there are no positive examples you can cite of LGBT characters in an RPG. Is that a fair assessment?

Vaerana Hawklyn and Lady Lord Yanseldara. Obvious lesbians but handled without making them anything other than just what they were. The fact that they're lesbians was irrelevant. They weren't cast as what modern "LGBT" culture would say is non-hetero in their behavior. That is part of the issue. I have no idea what YOU mean by positive representations of LGBT characters? Everyone I know that is LGBT in my life is "normal" - they're professional adults that, like me, keep their bedroom habits private, or at least discuss it only privately among friends. Exactly none of them are into American Pride parades and they disapprove of the Fabulous(tm) cliche of LGBT culture. In fact, they do not even like, they actively disavow, being grouped with the other alphabet people because they do not have anything in common with them. Does that make them bigots too?

I can't think of any case where sexual preference matters in published game material, in general. I do not require positive examples of people's sexual preference in *anything*. Are you saying otherwise? Do you require Transexual NPC's be represented? Furries? BDSM? Bi-sexuals? What about people into scat or water-sports?

Should these things be represented? Do they matter for the purposes of playing published material for the purposes of mass-consumption, including minors? I'm going to put my chip on the table and say: no.

And not because I'm puritanical. I do not run games for minors. I run very adult games. Because adults.

Quote from: jhkim;1108419As I said, I don't think that there is an overall benefit or drawback to having LGBT characters. I don't think modules with LGBT characters are overall better than modules without LGBT characters, and conversely, I don't think modules without LGBT characters are better. If I hear that a module has an LGBT couple in it, it makes me neither more interested nor less interested in buying it.

So you think there is no connection between today's SJW Intersection Religion and the continued insertion of these non-contextual LGBT elements into the game? Or is that okay with you? And why not any other form of representation that is out of context? Why the arbitrary need for THIS over anything else historically not represented? Like Left-Handed Filipino-hybrids?

Quote from: jhkim;1108419Personally, I will include LGBT characters when they seem to fit. For example, last week I re-ran a game of my Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG (Cinematic Unisystem), and among the six PCs one was lesbian and one was bi. (NOTE: That doesn't mean that I think all games need 33% LGBT, it's just that this game happened to have two characters.) I thought they were both cool characters who fit well with the game, which was set in modern-day Santa Cruz.

Great! I do the same thing. I give them context to my game at my table. That's appropriate. I would be fine with it in published material IF they made it contextual to the setting and even then, it would depend on the execution.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108504It doesn't have to be about you.

It does if they want my money. And if you read upthread - I said it's NOT that big of a deal. Because it isn't. I have no investment in D&D. It's not meant for me anymore - and that's cool! This is just me discussing the topic at hand.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108504There are a lot of people who find themselves isolated from others like themselves because they're part of a specific uncommon minority or an uncommon mix of various minority statuses.  Perhaps if they were confident enough it wouldn't matter to them to see people they can easily identify portrayed in the fantasy they consume, but that doesn't mean it doesn't.

Ahh. So isolating others is okay if it panders to those that want to make it about THEM. Interesting logic.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108504Even if you want to decry it as 'pandering', the fact is my specific demographic (white hetero-sexual cis-gendered male) has been pandered to in fantasy for a long time.

No. That's not pandering. That's called being the MASSIVE NORM. That's called being the demographic that created all of this. That's called being the demographic that catapulted this hobby into the place that included everyone by allowing anyone at their table to do *anything* they want. But now all the established material is being reworked to fit in this pandering agenda at the expense of the established settings in varying degrees for the sole purposes that have nothing to do with the game.

That's why I respect Blue Rose. They created the setting specifically with LGBT conceits in mind. That is how you do it. You don't have to be LGBT to engage with it. The system is fine. If someone ran it - I'd play the shit out of it - in context with its setting. I don't need to be pandered to in that game - and *I* am a minority. Hell I'm not pandered to in D&D as it is.  

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108504I've just picked a pick at random from my bookshelf - AD&D 2nd Edition Book of Artifacts.  I have NO IDEA what art is in the book but I'm going to find out.  I'm remarking on any picture that includes a person but not the black & white pictures that depict an object only.
 
Cover: Appears to depict a caucasian male and female.  The male has no shirt (beefcake) the female has a deeply cut shirt revealing all of her cleavage, knee high boots and a loincloth.  I'd consider this to be 'fan service' aimed at my demographic.
Page 8: Black & White: fat man
Page 12: Black & White: face obscured by a veil.  The features suggest female.
Page 22: Full Color: Baba Yaga - depicted as an old crone who's sex is not readily apparent
Page 28: Black & White: a coin with a veiled face.  This one is more obviously female.  
Page 34: Full Color: Hand and eye of Vecna
Page 55: Full color: Four people are being attacked by a swarm of bees.  One is a black human male; the other male figure is a barbarian with impossibly muscled arms and legs.  I would NOT consider it fan-service for women.  There are two female figures, a half-elf and a dwarf, I suspect - neither appears to be highly sexualized.
Page 59: Black & White: a party of human male (?), gnome (?) male, and female dwarf.  None are overtly sexualized
Page 66: Full Color: Orb of Dragonkind depicting one of the Elven Kings from Dragonlance.
Page 68: Black & White: A party of adventureres, it appears to be two males and two females.  One of the males appears to be an Elf with long hair.
Page 72: Black & White: A man being eaten by goo.
Page 76: Black & White: A man who is of extreme advanced age.
Page 95: Full Color: A roman centurion
Page 108: Black & White: A bearded figure (human, dwarf) mixing potions
Page 109: Black & White: A dwarf priest at an anvil alter
Page 117: Black & White: Two males (humans, gnomes?) stealing eggs from a large bird
Page 121: Black & White: A male human reading a magical tome
Page 126: Black & White: A male elf with staff and human female wizard with wand dueling
Page 129: Black & White: A male sitting in a magical library
Page 130: Black & White: A female in a magical library !!!
Page 132: Black & White: An older figure of indeterminate gender (probably male)
Page 134: Black & White: A male human reading tomes
Page 135: Black & White: A female reading a tome
Page 151: Black & White: A party of five (3 males, 2 females) stepping through a portal where two male orcs are marching
Page 156: Black & White: Two male warriors appear to be fleeing an earthquake/flood.  Another male figure is driving a wagon; two women look down from the windows of an upper floor

So what?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108504Okay, after reviewing the book art it is pretty clear that USUALLY any picture that could be ANYONE is a white male (ie, all the pictures of a single person not doing crazy adventuring things).  By the time I was nearly done, I was surprised to see female characters depicted just doing normal things like reading a book.  Compared to other 2E books, there was less fan service than I might have expected, but it's also possible that they were more 'woke' about how much sexual imagery they included.  As far as minorities, there was one person that didn't appear to be caucasian.  Even if you exclude the black & white figures, there isn't much representation of anyone that isn't white - definitely no Asians and no non-white girls.

I'm not white. SO WHAT? Is bog-standard D&D supposed to be reflecting MY culture? The answer is NO. It's European. If I want to play "Asian D&D" I'll run a fucking Asian-themed game. Why are you pretending that people don't have the intelligence to choose what they prefer? Or in your apparent case - why do you think white people should be filled with such grotesque self-loathing that they need to inflict it on others - and WORSE - dare to condescend to minorities like *me* about how I should somehow be victimized by the fact that your self-loathing view of your own culture did something to my ancestors - and you know, representation in a fucking fantasy elf-game is some kind of restitution for some past wrong that exists only in YOUR fucked up mind?

Let me tell you another story... I have been liberated by the Greco-Roman philosophy that helped create this fucking awesome place called America. A place that has spawned such ridiculous opulence and thought-provoking pastimes that my jungle-trodding cannibal ancestors could *never* have appreciated. This whole thread is a such a "Beyond First-World Problem" reading your bizarre list makes me literally laugh out loud at the complete disassociation from reality people like you (and I'm assuming there are others here that believe as you do) - where you think this is "important" in the big picture. It's... dare I say it... tremendously condescending... maybe even a little passively racist. I'll choose to call it ignorant. You should do yourself a huge favor and go live in the third-world for a spell. If that doesn't teach you to appreciate Western culture (as long as it survives without people like you to erode it from within), then I honestly don't know what more to tell you. I find your justification for this post... insanely ignorant.

And to think... you said "It doesn't have to be about YOU" - your entire justification for your position is about YOUR self-loathing as a white-hetero-cis-male. HAHAHAHAHAHAH. Man that's fucked up.

Quote from: Omega;1108466It says they can change gender. So yes that is a complete sex change, at will. Once each morning if so desired.

That means you could self-impregnate!!! Now THAT is how you fix the dwindling Elf-population problem in the Realms.