Quote from: jhkim;1108391This actually dates from 1E days.

Interesting. I mean, it does sort of make sense given how androgynous most elf variants are depicted anyway.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1108394Interesting. I mean, it does sort of make sense given how androgynous most elf variants are depicted anyway.

Actually, I take that back. It's in the original entry for Corellon in Deities and Demigods (1980). From page 106:

QuoteCorellon Larethian represents the highest ideals of elvenkind: "he" is skilled in all the arts and crafts, and is the patron of music, poetry, and magic. Corellon is alternately male or female, both or neither. The god is also mighty in battle, and is said to have personally banished such demons as Lolth from the sunlit Upperworld. Elven lore states that the race of elves sprang from the drops of blood Corellon shed in this epic battle.

Quote from: tenbones;1108392It *really* isn't a "hot button" topic. People invested in 5e make it a hot-button topic because people like me say it's silly to have it in there and that it's there for pandering purposes only.

I agree with your premise because we have seen a lot of stuff shoehorned in to 5E for social justice reasons. I'm curious enough to spend $8 on eBay to find out.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1108369Wait, I'm confused. Why is the ability a Corellon-related thing?

Interestingly, this would seem to also imply that those characters without Correlon's Blessing can't simply flip gender each morning. Seems kinds of anti-woke!

However, after having discussed this previously, it looks like Corellon's Blessing allows you to change sex, not gender, and thus appeases. And since gender and sex are unrelated, and as far as I know there aren't any sex-specific rules or restrictions in 5e, all that really changes via this blessing is the character's genitalia.

Which, you know, comes up all the time in D&D.

Quote from: jhkim;1108306During the series, Aragorn is frickin 87 years old -- never been married, no children. In a world without birth control, this would normally be interpreted as being flamingly gay. In fact, the entire fellowship is like this. Frodo is 50 years old, never been married, no children. The youngest among them is Pippin at 28 -- but all were unmarried with no children.

I think what you suggest would actually be far more normal than what is portrayed in Lord of the Rings.

I dont think that you could get to be a 87 year old Ranger by being flamingly gay.  That would give you at least a -2 to your Stealth checks.

Quote from: Zalman;1108402Interestingly, this would seem to also imply that those characters without Correlon's Blessing can't simply flip gender each morning. Seems kinds of anti-woke!

However, after having discussed this previously, it looks like Corellon's Blessing allows you to change sex, not gender, and thus appeases. And since gender and sex are unrelated, and as far as I know there aren't any sex-specific rules or restrictions in 5e, all that really changes via this blessing is the character's genitalia.

Which, you know, comes up all the time in D&D.

So, wait. Does the sex change come with all the reproductive features involved? Or are elves so blessed sterile/barren? There are some interesting implications there. Perhaps this is too off-topic for the thread and deserves its own topic, then again I don't feel too bad considering the bulk of the thread content.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1108405So, wait. Does the sex change come with all the reproductive features involved? Or are elves so blessed sterile/barren?

They're Seattle elves. They don't reproduce.

Quote from: jhkim;1108306During the series, Aragorn is frickin 87 years old -- never been married, no children. In a world without birth control, this would normally be interpreted as being flamingly gay. In fact, the entire fellowship is like this. Frodo is 50 years old, never been married, no children. The youngest among them is Pippin at 28 -- but all were unmarried with no children.

Quote from: Shasarak;1108403I dont think that you could get to be a 87 year old Ranger by being flamingly gay.  That would give you at least a -2 to your Stealth checks.

Heh! That just goes to show how good a Ranger he is. Those closeted gay rangers get it too easy with their stealth bonuses.

And back to Pat, who replied to this semi-seriously:

Quote from: Pat;1108346No, it wouldn't. Aragorn is the heir to the throne of Gondor, if he were a historical figure he wouldn't have any choice about who he marries. He's also a Numenorean, who live about three times as long as humans. On top of that, he's directly descended from Elros Half-Elven, the first King of Numenor (and brother to Elrond; yes Aragon ultimately marries his great-to-the-X uncle's daughter), so his life expectancy is even greater than that thanks to his elf blood. So that 87 could mean nearly anything. And Legolas is the son of King Thranduil, and immortal. Gandalf is also immortal, a spirit who has taken (elderly) human form. We can go through the rest of the fellowship that way.

The exceptions are the Hobbits. Especially since they are basically little rural English gentlemen, we can probably assume there would be some speculation about Frodo (cf. all the Frodoo/Sam internet memes for a modern example). But gossip isn't certainty; it's a big stretch to say the majority of historical English bachelors were gay.

Pat, I formally withdraw my remark about Aragorn being gay.

Nevertheless, I really do think it's weird that they're all that old while being unmarried and childless. Being long-lived doesn't really explain anything, I feel. Even if Aragorn has a life expectancy of 300, wouldn't he still be looking for some action prior to age 87? That's a lot of time to go without nookie. And even the characters with children had tiny families. Denethor had only two children, and Theoden had one. One or two characters like this wouldn't be remarkable -- but it's a trend with nearly everyone in the series.

Quote from: jhkim;1108410Nevertheless, I really do think it's weird that they're all that old while being unmarried and childless. Being long-lived doesn't really explain anything, I feel. Even if Aragorn has a life expectancy of 300, wouldn't he still be looking for some action prior to age 87? That's a lot of time to go without nookie. And even the characters with children had tiny families. Denethor had only two children, and Theoden had one. One or two characters like this wouldn't be remarkable -- but it's a trend with nearly everyone in the series.

It's ahistorical and not particularly realistic, but I wouldn't say it's weird. Because Lord of the Rings isn't a pseudo historical fantasy, it's high fantasy. A romance in the Arthurian sense, and to a lesser degree in the more banal sense. Everything is vast and sweeping, stakes are high, the regions are huge, time stretches on endlessly, and everything comes to dramatic ends (with a few exceptions, like the Scourge of the Shire). Same with marriage; it's not a political convenience or a duty, or about getting some ass; from Beren and Luthien to Aragorn and Arwen, it's about the culmination of true love and sacrifice.

Quote from: Pat;1108346Though I don't think Chris24601 realizes how enormously improbable 33 triplets in row would be. Triplets occur in 1 in 200,000 births, and (0.000005)^3... well, let's just say you'd need about 175 digits to write it out. Even if triplets tend to run in families so we can reduce those odds a bit, it's safe to say it's still a lot less common than anything else being discussed.

Sequential triplets was just the only way I could cram 100 kids into a 30 year female reproductive window. The point was that in terms of representation the two gay gnomes far exceed the actual levels of the modern homosexual population. I wasn't specifically trying for the odds of multiple triplets... I was just trying to get the average family size to the point where it would as ludicrously over-represented.

Quote from: jhkimthen can you give some examples of how you would prefer it to be done? What are good examples of LGBT characters in RPG modules, and how do they differ from what's in the Essential Kit?

Quote from: tenbones;1108381I would prefer it - as I've stated- only if it contextually matters. I can't think off hand where it matters so much it *needs* to be done at all. But the rulers of Elversult in the Realms were long-established as lesbians. But it contextually didn't matter much. Which only supports my point. What you do at your table is fine. I don't know where the line is except that the selectiveness of the Woke Oppression Stack seems to be curiously one-sided in the modern era.

Just to check that I am understanding what you are saying here... What I understand is that if you only want LGBT characters if they contextually matter - but you can't think of any cases where it would matter. Thus, there are no positive examples you can cite of LGBT characters in an RPG. Is that a fair assessment?

Quote from: tenbones;1108381Conversely - I've asked you: what is the benefit and how is it measured for including it? How does it serve the fiction?

As I said, I don't think that there is an overall benefit or drawback to having LGBT characters. I don't think modules with LGBT characters are overall better than modules without LGBT characters, and conversely, I don't think modules without LGBT characters are better. If I hear that a module has an LGBT couple in it, it makes me neither more interested nor less interested in buying it.

Personally, I will include LGBT characters when they seem to fit. For example, last week I re-ran a game of my Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG (Cinematic Unisystem), and among the six PCs one was lesbian and one was bi. (NOTE: That doesn't mean that I think all games need 33% LGBT, it's just that this game happened to have two characters.) I thought they were both cool characters who fit well with the game, which was set in modern-day Santa Cruz. The first was "Ashley McBay, Gay Vegetarian Wiccan Rich Girl" -- which nicely captured a side of Santa Cruz, and who was roughly the Santa Cruz equivalent of Cordelia in the TV series. Here's her character sheet:

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/buffy/chars/display.cgi?shortname=slayerbot/ashley

The other character was Tori, "Goth Chick from Hell" -- a transplant from Sunnydale. Also a fun and cool character, I thought, for a comedy-action game.

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/buffy/chars/display.cgi?shortname=slayerbot/tori

Quote from: Pat;1108411It's ahistorical and not particularly realistic, but I wouldn't say it's weird.

I don't disagree with anything you said, so I think this is a to-may-to / to-mah-to sort of thing about how we're describing it.

Quote from: S'mon;1108408They're Seattle elves. They don't reproduce.

LOL! I can't decide whether that's tragic or hilarious!

Quote from: jhkim;1108419As I said, I don't think that there is an overall benefit or drawback to having LGBT characters. I don't think modules with LGBT characters are overall better than modules without LGBT characters, and conversely, I don't think modules without LGBT characters are better. If I hear that a module has an LGBT couple in it, it makes me neither more interested nor less interested in buying it.

That's about my view as well.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1108369Wait, I'm confused. Why is the ability a Corellon-related thing?

WOTC pulled a LOTR gag and cherry picked a comment from an old source. Essentially, depending on the source Corellon could be male or female. I believe 2es Complete Elves. sooooo. WOTC gender swapping elves! Because... Diversity!

Note that any elf can pick this one up. Including Drow. PC elves can select it at chargen.

Addendum: Actually it goes all the way back to Deities & Demigods. So it is not totally out of the blue.