Quote from: S'mon;1103789I get the impression WoTC & Paizo see "King" as equivalent to "CEO", like Lisa Stevens is the King of Paizo (with her consort Queen Wertz). A CEO doesn't need to worry about producing an heir.

Nearly all of D&D past maybe Blackmoor and Greyhawk have tended to be like that. Apparently just assuming that kings and queens are replaced by someone totally different every time a new one is needed. Or in a few weird cases seem to assume the populace elect a new king.

Forgotten Realms is all over the place and you have elected leaders and hereditary leaders dotting the landscape.

All bets are off though with demi human, humanoid, and non human races. Orcs tend to be lead by whomever is strongest and can hold, or take, the position. As are many other humanoid races. Others are more structured and orderly like some depictions of goblins, kobolds, and a few others for example.

But keep in mind that just like with comics. There oft is no consistency due to different writers working on the same setting or parts of and putting their own spins on what they think an area or whole setting 'should' be.

Its like with this whole demon obsession 5e seems to have where a number of established creatures and races have been retooled to now be the product of some demon or diabolic force.

Quote from: jhkim;1103819I don't have the Essentials Kit, so I'm not sure how they handle it there. But D&D has never had much semblance of feudalism. I mentioned the government of the Village of Hommlet before. I had thought that it wasn't defined, but when I checked this morning, it turns out I was wrong. The government is defined as follows:

How succession works isn't defined, but it is implied that seniority is important for the council members. This isn't terrible, but it isn't particularly feudal - and seems just as modernist as declaring successors rather than having them by birth descent (which has happened in many cases in history).

Actually that probably follows how many towns are handled in feudal times. You are confusing Town with Kingdom. Towns even back then could and did have the eldest as leader. Others were hereditary. Others had no town leaders at all apparently.

But this does roll back to the Essentials gnome Kings. What are they kings of? This is a tiny little place. On AD&D terms its a Thorpe, not even big enough to rate as a Hamlet. It has a population of only 30, counting the 'monarchs'.

Quote from: tenbones;1103826It could happen! The D&D cartoon characters appeared in the Realms.

They also appeared in Mystara, and Known World, and Greyhawk, AND in the TV series some unknown world that may or may not have been "The Realm" from Keep on the Borderlands.

I think the only place they have not yet appeared is Eberron, Birthright, Spelljammer, and Planescape. yet. :cool:

Quote from: Omega;1103731J: Not necessarily. Something may be irrelevant to the adventure. But there to give the DM ideas and make of it what they will. Or to give the NPC a little more life than just a stat block and a name.
Do I need to know why Diana the Fighter level 5 is wearing a cooking pot on her head? No. I have enough brain cells still active to come up with all sorts of possible reasons. And just because an entry is effectively meaningless in no way means that entry can not be embellished, changed, or whatever the DM or even the players think it can be applied to.

Are you two really that deficit in imagination?

In isn't a matter of being deficit in imagination, it is a matter of the content creator giving the target audience what they paid for. Any GM worth a damn may expand upon an insignificant line of text to make it important to their Player group running through that module or setting. The question comes back to whether or not that information is significant to the work created. If Diana the Fighter is wearing a cooking pot on her head, why is that important to the adventure? If you have two gnay gnome kings co-ruling, why is their sexual orientation important to the adventure? Sure, we can make up reasons - but if the author included that in the adventure then there must be a reason why that is related to the adventure or else the author was just padding their word count in order to get more pay (not like that has never been done before, I'm looking at you Herman Melville).

Quote from: CRKrueger;1103844What area or country are these gnomes Kings of?

In the game? Phandalin is along the Sword Coast. In and around the Sword Mountains and south of Neverwinter Woods where some adventures will go as well.

Quote from: jhkim3.5% isn't the norm, but it's also not very rare and doesn't require a special explanation. In a room of 30 people - like a high school classroom, say - it's likely that 1 person has a given 3.5% trait. Traits of similar rarity include grey eyes, or a man with height over 6 foot 2 inch (187 cm).

Quote from: tenbones;1103892Stop moving the goalpost. *I* didn't say "very rare" - I disagreed with you claiming it's "not uncommon". It IS uncommon. And stop pretending that scale doesn't matter. Of course it matters.

You're using "not uncommon" in quotes here - but I never said the words "not uncommon". I just searched the thread. You used the terms unusual and weird -- and more specifically, in post #163 you compared the characters being gay to characters coming in from another dimension. Having characters be gay is not equivalent weirdness to being from another dimension -- it's the equivalent to someone being 6 foot 3 inches. I'm sitting across from a 6 foot 3 inch co-worker now.

Quote from: tenbones;1103892If your selection size is 30... and 2 people meet the selection criteria - they are by definition UNCOMMON. Extrapolate all that out by the other criteria I outlined (Gnome, Non-Gnome cultural Title, Primary Ruler position - MULTIPLY that by 2, on top of a presumed non-gnome dominated citizenry)... and yeah, you're getting into magically small fractions.

Magically small fractions? That seems like a misuse of statistics.

If I pick a random person out of a country and they happen to be a king, then yes, that would be a strange coincidence. But the NPCs in a module aren't randomly selected average citizens of the country. The king of the region is a notable NPC, and they are detailed *because* they are king. It's not a weird coincidence that the king is a king. Given a non-randomly selected king in the module, the chance of them being gay is 3.5% -- if we assume percentages is the same as the real world. (Which there's no need to do.)

Someone might argue "But 100% of the kings in this module are gay, which is far above 3.5%." But that's a problem of small statistics. If there's only one set of rulers in the module, then it's either 0% or 100%. To see the actual prevalence, you have to look across multiple modules. At least in my experience, WotC modules don't have frequent gay rulers. I'm pretty sure that they have over 30 sovereigns detailed that aren't gay among their various modules.

Also, I don't have the module yet, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the ruler is a gnome of a primarily non-gnome citizenry. I see references online that this is part of the Gnomengard quest, which by its name I think it a primarily gnomish country.

Quote from: Omega;1103900Nearly all of D&D past maybe Blackmoor and Greyhawk have tended to be like that. Apparently just assuming that kings and queens are replaced by someone totally different every time a new one is needed. Or in a few weird cases seem to assume the populace elect a new king.

Forgotten Realms is all over the place and you have elected leaders and hereditary leaders dotting the landscape.

Agree on the Realms, it's one of the things I always thought was silly about the gray box, the 1/2e hardback, and so on. It always felt like each little vale, city-state, or region needed it's own little form of government, and none of them were particularly historical, sensible, or even interesting.

Though from a broader perspective, the Realms is very short on kingdoms in the first place. Most of the familiar areas are independent city states or farming communities, with empires and broken nations scattered around the edges. Cormyr is the only real kingdom in the middle of it all, and it bears no resemblance to feudal kingdoms, because instead of a noble class ruling over feudal feifdoms, there's a lord assigned to each town and Azoun has the "fealty" of an ever-changing group of merchant lords.

Quote from: S'mon;1102858So, I got my EK yesterday. One adventure (set in the Forgotten Realms) involves two homosexual gnome 'kings' who are married to each other and co-rule in tandem, only one has gone mad and imprisoned the other.

Wondering if I can/should try to make this work, or ignore it. Making them brothers might make more sense. OTOH I have had gay male NPC relationships in my FR before, but only for humans, and I presented it as tolerated not socially sanctioned. I suppose I could go with Gnomes Are Into That Kinda Thing... but I'd like it make some kind of sense. I guess neither could be a hereditary monarch - they'd have to be elected together?

Late to the thread and I don't have enough time to read through it all right now but I'd keep everything as is and make them brothers. That way they could both have a legitimate claim to the throne. Also the entire "royal" family could believe in keeping it in the family which would help explain away the madness of the one brother.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910Magically small fractions? That seems like a misuse of statistics.

If I pick a random person out of a country and they happen to be a king, then yes, that would be a strange coincidence. But the NPCs in a module aren't randomly selected average citizens of the country. The king of the region is a notable NPC, and they are detailed *because* they are king. It's not a weird coincidence that the king is a king. Given a non-randomly selected king in the module, the chance of them being gay is 3.5% -- if we assume percentages is the same as the real world. (Which there's no need to do.)

Also, I don't have the module yet, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the ruler is a gnome of a primarily non-gnome citizenry. I see references online that this is part of the Gnomengard quest, which by its name I think it a primarily gnomish country.

I am guessing here you got the wrong impression of the situation...

In the adventure these gnomes are a reclusive faction and total a mere 20, formerly 22, and if the PCs dont do something about the problem the population will probably eventually be... ZERO.

Their "Kings" are literally just there and I am not seeing any indication of even why they are kings or what they are kings of as they do not represent any other gnomes in the region. This is a little Thorpe as AD&D would classify it as noted prior. Interestingly the population is evenly divided. 10 males, 10 females listed.

Take note that this whole thing is played more for laughs. These are Rock Gnomes and appear to be stand-ins for Tinker Gnomes and act just as goofball sometimes. And the place is littered with mechanical traps and gadgets. Not on the wack-o lefels of Tinker Gnomes. But it is not played seriously.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910At least in my experience, WotC modules don't have frequent gay rulers. I'm pretty sure that they have over 30 sovereigns detailed that aren't gay among their various modules.

How do you know they aren't gay? Are all 30 explicitly heterosexual? Or are you counting non-mentions as "not gay" because you actually believe that's the normal baseline?

Quote from: jhkim;1103910To see the actual prevalence, you have to look across multiple modules. At least in my experience, WotC modules don't have frequent gay rulers. I'm pretty sure that they have over 30 sovereigns detailed that aren't gay among their various modules.

At least one is possibly Bi. and in Curse of Strahd, Strahd is now stated up front to be Bisexual. But that module has an obvious agenda. Essentials does not.

Quote from: Omega;1103938At least one is possibly Bi. and in Curse of Strahd, Strahd is now stated up front to be Bisexual. But that module has an obvious agenda. Essentials does not.

All NPCs in Paizo APs are by default bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Quote from: Omega;1103938At least one is possibly Bi. and in Curse of Strahd, Strahd is now stated up front to be Bisexual. But that module has an obvious agenda.

Then I must be obtuse, because the only agenda I picked up on was 'let Hickman trash the 2E setting, which he never liked.' But that's probably why I didn't give it a close reading (although close enough to pick up on Strahd) and might have missed other factors.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910You're using "not uncommon" in quotes here - but I never said the words "not uncommon". I just searched the thread. You used the terms unusual and weird -- and more specifically, in post #163 you compared the characters being gay to characters coming in from another dimension. Having characters be gay is not equivalent weirdness to being from another dimension -- it's the equivalent to someone being 6 foot 3 inches. I'm sitting across from a 6 foot 3 inch co-worker now.

So rather than engage the actual point - you want to quibble about quotations as if you don't know there is indeed a forest surrounding the tree on the hill you're apparently willing to rhetorically die on. The pattern of being a contrarian, intellectually disingenuous individual is really starting to take shape.

But I'm still waiting for you to stop ignoring the fact I've repeatedly said it's not just about being gay. I've said it several times. But you help me build my alternate, and real point below. Come along... I'll show you, fearless tree-watcher.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910Magically small fractions? That seems like a misuse of statistics.

Yes. Magical. Literally in a narrative sense magical. When you cherry-pick my points that led me to this claim - but never address them, it's definitely magical. Much in the same way you magically ignore them.

Gay Gnome Dual-Kings in a setting historically rare (and to my recollection - never established at all - Gnomish Kings as a thing... there are no actual "kingdoms" of Gnomes in the Realms. Until now apparently - but it gets better. They're so rare - they literally had to create Gnomegarde out of thin air. It's brand new. /shrug. Magic indeed.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910If I pick a random person out of a country and they happen to be a king, then yes, that would be a strange coincidence. But the NPCs in a module aren't randomly selected average citizens of the country. The king of the region is a notable NPC, and they are detailed *because* they are king. It's not a weird coincidence that the king is a king. Given a non-randomly selected king in the module, the chance of them being gay is 3.5% -- if we assume percentages is the same as the real world. (Which there's no need to do.)

But by that standard - then a King isn't even a king. Because you're inserting context as if the module is not part of a larger established setting. It IS. And therefore the taxonomy of the established setting which the module resides in supersedes the precedents set in the module/adventure. So much so that it literally *defines* anything out of the norm as "Uncommon". In this case: A new and FIRST Gnomish Kingdom in 30+ years of the Forgotten Realms, that happens to be ruled by two gay male Gnomes. And you're claiming that's not weird despite all other contextual realities.

That takes an awful lot of disingenuous logic or... other things that frankly make you look worse, by ignoring.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910Someone might argue "But 100% of the kings in this module are gay, which is far above 3.5%."

Someone might. But I'm not. I think it's a cheap tactic to do - because I'm all about context. The MODULE is not a self-contained universe. As I stated above. It exists in the Forgotten Realms. If this were just a module and free-standing - I wouldn't care *at all*.

No more than I'd care if they made them Asian Gnomes, Keebler Elves, or Lawn Gnomes in a free-standing module. Because the only context of it is self-referential. Call it a Gnomish Empire if you want. But that's not what they did.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910But that's a problem of small statistics. If there's only one set of rulers in the module, then it's either 0% or 100%. To see the actual prevalence, you have to look across multiple modules. At least in my experience, WotC modules don't have frequent gay rulers. I'm pretty sure that they have over 30 sovereigns detailed that aren't gay among their various modules.

The Forgotten Realms are pretty well established. But you're doing your own argument a disservice here. Either it's astronomically uncommon or not. Small statistics aside - there are *no* actual Gnomish kingdoms in the Forgotten Realms. That alone is 100% factually true until now. That alone shoots your argument down about it not being fantastically odd to have Two Gay Gnomish Co-Kings of a Gnomish Kingdom. Since until now - there have been precisely ZERO. And it's arbitrary to call them Kings. It's arbitrary to make them Gnomes. It's arbitrary to decide it's "uncommon" to you since using real-world numbers in direct proportion to the assumed rarity of Gnomes withing the Realms, and the assumption that homosexuality among them are equal to humans - still registers as "not odd" to you. I'm not sure what else would suffice.

Would the Asian Gnome thing be weird? If so - why? If not... then carry on, because then that would explain your position perfectly.

Quote from: jhkim;1103910Also, I don't have the module yet, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the ruler is a gnome of a primarily non-gnome citizenry. I see references online that this is part of the Gnomengard quest, which by its name I think it a primarily gnomish country.

I looked it up. It's Gnomish. Changes nothing since Gnomes don't have kingdoms in the Realms (until now). Gnomes are also pretty rare in the Realms, their settlements rarely are above village status going over 1-2k in population. And here - we're talking a small village of less than 40. Some "kingdom".

The very fact you insist that your 3.5% is not uncommon - it literally took a writer to create a Gnomish Kingdom whole of cloth without *any* real characteristics of an actual Kingdom - and arbitrarily make the rulers of the Kingdom gay, doesn't seem to register to you that there is an agenda here beyond the obvious need to self-contextualize this.

I think it says more about you than me. Of all the arbitrary characteristics to append to something written and designed whole of cloth to the established norms of the setting itself without the slightest bit of skepticism seems grossly obtuse of you. or contrarian if you will. But you choose that position at the expense of your own credibility of logic. The persistence of which says other things. But hey - whatever floats your boat.

Quote from: jeff37923;1103905... or else the author was just padding their word count in order to get more pay (not like that has never been done before, I'm looking at you Herman Melville).

Heretic.