Quote from: Omega;1103731Are you two really that deficit in imagination?

Heheh do you *really* think we are lacking in imagination? c'mon! *I* could make a scenario with two-gnomish rulers that happened to be gay and put it in an adventure. I wouldn't do it arbitrarily - because the mere fact of those conditions demands recognition of the unusual circumstances.

That's PRECISELY why I said - why is it assumed to be not arbitrary? jhkim is posting "3.5%" is not unusual. Because you know... that's as stupid as saying "It's like 50/50 - you either get 3.5% or 96.5%! so 50/50! Nothing unusual at all."

It's arbitrary and sloppy for the express purposes of pretending it's normal.

I'm not asking them *not* to do it. I'm saying they should MAKE IT MATTER.

Quote from: Mistwell;1103745Yes, that is in fact meaningful. For fucking China, the most populous nation on the planet, when considering the population of Jews in the world. Most nations have zero you realize, right?

Not sure why I am debating this with you any more though. You appear to have an odd agenda at this point.

I guess that goes both ways, because I don't understand what your point is anymore.

What area or country are these gnomes Kings of?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103831I guess that goes both ways, because I don't understand what your point is anymore.

When we talk about people, absolute numbers matter.  100,000 people is 100,000 people whether they're in a country of 100,000 or 100,000,000,000.  In terms of culture, the place where they are a minority will certainly end up being significantly different than the place where they are the only cultural group.  

If the number of Jews in Poland is significant, the number of Jews in China is also significant, because they're similar numbers.  It's quite possible for Jews in Poland to be represented more frequently in culture and society because they make up a more significant minority population than they do in China, but either way, you have significant numbers of people.  

This is indicative and important in a gaming context as well in regard to creating a realistic seeming world.  While you don't normally EXPECT to run into samurai in 'Western Fantasy Settings', you often do run into a few Western Fantasy characters in 'Fantasy Asia' (if only the PCs).  If you think about that for a moment, including a few Samurai in the docks of 'not Paris' isn't STRANGE, but it is INTERESTING.  The fact that people are moving around the world without regard to the PCs actually makes it easier to suspend belief - AND it offers some additional adventuring hooks if the PCs decide it is interesting.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103854If you think about that for a moment, including a few Samurai in the docks of 'not Paris' isn't STRANGE, but it is INTERESTING.

Isnt' it interesting because it's strange?
What would be strange?

Quote from: jhkim;1103819How succession works isn't defined, but it is implied that seniority is important for the council members. This isn't terrible, but it isn't particularly feudal - and seems just as modernist as declaring successors rather than having them by birth descent (which has happened in many cases in history).

Or its VERY Dark Ages (i.e. between Fall of Rome and c. 1000 AD) Medieval.

Many of the earliest kings in that period were elected from among the warrior caste of a society. Many kings would designate one of their sons (not necessarily the oldest) as who they would like to succeed them and often the warrior caste obliged, but it was not a guarantee, particularly if the king became unpopular or the heir he wanted to get the crown wasn't (a lot of times it still stayed in the family, it just went to a different son that the warrior caste preferred). Only later did bloodline primogeniture become the norm.

In other words, if you're in a "post-Imperial collapse" type setting where a king leads not more much than a large clan (ex. England during that period had either six or seven kings each ruling a different part of the island) then some sort of system where the king declares his chosen successor (usually, but not always, one of his sons) and it is confirmed by the body that is warrior caste (i.e. the nobles) would actually be right in line with the period.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103856Isnt' it interesting because it's strange?
What would be strange?

Strange would be things that don't have easy explanations.  Samurai being there because they were abducted by aliens is STRANGE; them being there because they took a boat as part of a cultural exchange program wouldn't be.  

If you think about the real world and you posit that something has a 1 in 1 million chance of happening to a person on a given day, it'll happen to 7,500 people EVERY DAY.  Something that happens 1 in a billion times still happens to 7 people every day.  Fantasy worlds should include things that appear odd in part because the real world does.  Sometimes the thing that seems weird is perfectly normal (but unexpected) and sometimes it is really STRANGE, but having things that appear interesting and unusual to players gives them reason to investigate and explore the world.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103854This is indicative and important in a gaming context as well in regard to creating a realistic seeming world.  While you don't normally EXPECT to run into samurai in 'Western Fantasy Settings', you often do run into a few Western Fantasy characters in 'Fantasy Asia' (if only the PCs).  If you think about that for a moment, including a few Samurai in the docks of 'not Paris' isn't STRANGE, but it is INTERESTING.  The fact that people are moving around the world without regard to the PCs actually makes it easier to suspend belief - AND it offers some additional adventuring hooks if the PCs decide it is interesting.

Oh you mean putting context to that strange oddity in the game? Is that actually happening here with this scenario? Maybe you should be the one talking with jhkim.

I've actually done exactly what you mentioned above. I placed an pagoda, with a big wall around it, smack dab in the middle of Elversult (right off the Dragonmere in the Realms) with a kensai and retainers living there - complete with backstory, reason they're there, woven into the tapestry of the city.

At some point like a year into the campaign, one of the players wandered there, a Paladin, that ended up kicking off a series of adventures that led to him adopting many of the practices of the owner, and led eventually to his quest that granted him his Holy Avenger... a katana.

The point being that I've been saying - if it's done well, there is every reason you can have Two Gay Gnome Co-Kings as silly and stupid as that sounds... if you give it the right context. IS that happening? It certainly doesn't sound so.

I should add that Elversult is, ironically, ruled by two lesbians, in-canon. They've been semi-major NPC's in my games for decades.

Quote from: tenbones;1103827That's PRECISELY why I said - why is it assumed to be not arbitrary? jhkim is posting "3.5%" is not unusual. Because you know... that's as stupid as saying "It's like 50/50 - you either get 3.5% or 96.5%! so 50/50! Nothing unusual at all."

3.5% isn't the norm, but it's also not very rare and doesn't require a special explanation. In a room of 30 people - like a high school classroom, say - it's likely that 1 person has a given 3.5% trait. Traits of similar rarity include grey eyes, or a man with height over 6 foot 2 inch (187 cm).

I've had several gay co-workers, have two gay cousins, and many gay friends.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1103722Yeah, the big deal isn't the event itself. I have casually gay characters in several of my products, no one ever seems to notice.

The big deal is the Motive.

Interesting. Can you talk about some examples of gay characters in your products? Did you feel that you had to put in special context to make their gayness matter?

Quote from: Chris24601;1103857Or its VERY Dark Ages (i.e. between Fall of Rome and c. 1000 AD) Medieval.

Many of the earliest kings in that period were elected from among the warrior caste of a society. Many kings would designate one of their sons (not necessarily the oldest) as who they would like to succeed them and often the warrior caste obliged, but it was not a guarantee, particularly if the king became unpopular or the heir he wanted to get the crown wasn't (a lot of times it still stayed in the family, it just went to a different son that the warrior caste preferred). Only later did bloodline primogeniture become the norm.

In other words, if you're in a "post-Imperial collapse" type setting where a king leads not more much than a large clan (ex. England during that period had either six or seven kings each ruling a different part of the island) then some sort of system where the king declares his chosen successor (usually, but not always, one of his sons) and it is confirmed by the body that is warrior caste (i.e. the nobles) would actually be right in line with the period.

I think I'm going to go something like this, only more Gnomic. That basically the Gnay Gnome Knings were chosen by acclamation to lead the clan, and after them it'll be someone else.

Quote from: S'mon;1103880Gnay Gnome Knings

LMAO!

Quote from: jhkim;11038783.5% isn't the norm, but it's also not very rare and doesn't require a special explanation. In a room of 30 people - like a high school classroom, say - it's likely that 1 person has a given 3.5% trait. Traits of similar rarity include grey eyes, or a man with height over 6 foot 2 inch (187 cm).

Stop moving the goalpost. *I* didn't say "very rare" - I disagreed with you claiming it's "not uncommon". It IS uncommon. And stop pretending that scale doesn't matter. Of course it matters.

If your selection size is 30... and 2 people meet the selection criteria - they are by definition UNCOMMON. Extrapolate all that out by the other criteria I outlined (Gnome, Non-Gnome cultural Title, Primary Ruler position - MULTIPLY that by 2, on top of a presumed non-gnome dominated citizenry)... and yeah, you're getting into magically small fractions. Wait... are we doing the contrarian dance? It really isn't a good look dude.

Quote from: jhkim;1103878I've had several gay co-workers, have two gay cousins, and many gay friends.

Aaaaannnd? What bit of data does this serve without any other contextual facts? Do you have 5,000,000 friends in your inner-circle? No one else in your life other than these people that happen to be homosexual? I mean, it's kind of non-sequitur. Does it matter?

I have a bunch of gay friends, family too. Doesn't change the overall averages of *reality*.

Quote from: tenbones;1103892Stop moving the goalpost. *I* didn't say "very rare" - I disagreed with you claiming it's "not uncommon". It IS uncommon. And stop pretending that scale doesn't matter. Of course it matters.

If your selection size is 30... and 2 people meet the selection criteria - they are by definition UNCOMMON. Extrapolate all that out by the other criteria I outlined (Gnome, Non-Gnome cultural Title, Primary Ruler position - MULTIPLY that by 2, on top of a presumed non-gnome dominated citizenry)... and yeah, you're getting into magically small fractions. Wait... are we doing the contrarian dance? It really isn't a good look dude.



Aaaaannnd? What bit of data does this serve without any other contextual facts? Do you have 5,000,000 friends in your inner-circle? No one else in your life other than these people that happen to be homosexual? I mean, it's kind of non-sequitur. Does it matter?

I have a bunch of gay friends, family too. Doesn't change the overall averages of *reality*.

"I don't know anybody who voted for Nixon."

Quote from: Antiquation!;1103881LMAO!

I'm gnetting mnore and mnore extreme as the thread pnrogresses.

Quote from: S'mon;1103897I'm gnetting mnore and mnore extreme as the thread pnrogresses.

Ha, it's the best part of this topic.  I'm taking notes for when my "ancient gnomes" finally come out of hiding in my current campaign.