I think part of the reason this is a neuralgic point in D&D in particular is the presence of alignment and interventionist deities. Unlike other games, where it can just be 'part of the setting' without necessarily incorporating value judgments one way or the other, including such elements in D&D carries the assumption that they're being called out as "Good" or "Evil," and as divinely approved or disapproved.

Quote from: jhkim;1103639Characters in fantasy modules don't have to conform to their proportions in modern U.S. society.

Exactly. Fantasy Gnomes might just be gayer than real-life humans. The question I always have is "why"? When orcs are eviler than modern humans it serves a purpose in the module -- to create an enemy we can slay without moral conundrum. What purpose is served by inventing a new ratio of gay-to-straight gnomes in a fantasy game? Or a fantasy movie like Dark Crystal?

When the ratios are changed with no connection to a module's plot or theme, it seems to me that either the author is intentionally trying to "over-normalize" the concept, or they are deluded about the real life ratios (just as the aforementioned 12-year-old). Or they're just virtue-signaling, because you know, gay is better than straight.

Quote from: Mistwell;1103637And if it had been the guards who help you access the dungeon where one King is imprisoned instead, you'd be claiming that's the notable NPC there almost as if it's to accommodate their sexual orientation.

How is being a guard comparable to a monarchy, with lineages and inherited positions?

QuoteTypically it's Chinese and Japanese, yes. There is actually a meaningful Jewish population in China, who went there during and just after WW2.

According to wiki, the jewish population in China is 0.00018 percent. I guess that's meaningful in that there aren't very many.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103644According to wiki, the jewish population in China is 0.00018 percent. I guess that's meaningful in that there aren't very many.

2494 people.

Quote from: Zalman;1103642The question I always have is "why"? When orcs are eviler than modern humans it serves a purpose in the module -- to create an enemy we can slay without moral conundrum. What purpose is served by inventing a new ratio of gay-to-straight gnomes in a fantasy game? Or a fantasy movie like Dark Crystal?

Making things fantastic can help fire the imagination.  It's like a writing prompt - finding a starting point to build a fantasy world is pretty important.  Most people struggle most with figuring out where to start.  And maybe gnome monarchy isn't the first place you'd THINK to start, but once you do start, your creative imagination may take you in a lot of places you wouldn't have gone without a starting point.  Instead of 'gnomes are just like humans except short' you now have a fantasy world and interactions with gnomes is suddenly more dynamic and less wooden.  

As far as the importance of representation you can find a number of sources to cover it.  

Here's a quote from the linked article:

QuoteThere are two primary reasons why representation is important: inclusivity and perception.
Seeing people who look, act, and experience life like them in media makes a person feel included in a society, and it reinforces positive views of themselves and what they can achieve in society. Also, members of other groups, especially majority groups, base their ideas of groups on what they see in the media. For example, a hiring manager who watches too many police procedurals might view candidates of minority races as having criminal tendencies.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103644According to wiki, the jewish population in China is 0.00018 percent. I guess that's meaningful in that there aren't very many.

Huh...  There are almost as many Jews in China as in Poland.  That sounds meaningful to me.

>>For example, a hiring manager who watches too many police procedurals might view candidates of minority races as having criminal tendencies.<<

"His resume is perfect, but he's a WASP from the Upper West Side! No way am I hiring one of them - they're always murderin' people and blaming it on the Puerto Rican guy!"

Quote from: jhkimCharacters in fantasy modules don't have to conform to their proportions in modern U.S. society.

Quote from: Zalman;1103642Exactly. Fantasy Gnomes might just be gayer than real-life humans. The question I always have is "why"? When orcs are eviler than modern humans it serves a purpose in the module -- to create an enemy we can slay without moral conundrum. What purpose is served by inventing a new ratio of gay-to-straight gnomes in a fantasy game? Or a fantasy movie like Dark Crystal?

When the ratios are changed with no connection to a module's plot or theme, it seems to me that either the author is intentionally trying to "over-normalize" the concept, or they are deluded about the real life ratios (just as the aforementioned 12-year-old). Or they're just virtue-signaling, because you know, gay is better than straight.

I dislike this sort of armchair psychologizing. By exactly this same logic, then if an author puts in 0% gay NPCs in a module, then they must be trying to erase gays - or they're deluded that gays don't really exist and are only manufactured by modern liberal propaganda - or they're just virtue signaling to conservative players. I don't think such motive-questioning is warranted.

I don't have to know that an author's motives are pure. If it's a fun module, it's a fun module.

There doesn't need to be a special reason for an NPC to be gay, just like there doesn't need to be a special reason for that NPC to be straight.

Does every NPC have to have their orientation listed? That is what some of these "inclusion" nuts demand as if it has some sort of vast meaning.

No. We do not need to freaking know every damn NPC's orientation. We do not need to know even the important ones orientation unless it somehow impacts the adventure.

Or better yet. Do like we used to and leave it totally open so a DM or players can make of it what they will.

But now in this age of insane identity politics infesting every damn corner... they feel they need to force their agendas on people, or insert some little jab in as a "statement!" which does more harm than good because it is invariably done so ham handedly or ineptly.

If you are going to stick this stuff in gaming material then at lease make it relevant or dont bother.

If I had been writing that section I would have added some notes as to why these two are an item. Even if it is as simple as - gnomes, or at least the ones in the Phandalin region, picked this up from the local elves who have a higher population with Blessing of Corellon and thus change gender like others change clothes. - And then tie that into the elves elsewhere in the book.

Build up connections so it feels more organic and the region feels more connected and alive.

And since I have not yet finished reading the adventures. Maybee that is in there somewhere.

Quote from: Rhedyn;11036472494 people.

Compared the total population.

I bough the Wssentials, may run the adventure. Changed one of them to a Queen. Done.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103650Huh...  There are almost as many Jews in China as in Poland.  That sounds meaningful to me.

Yes. It means Poland has about the same amount of Jews as China. Nothing else aside from how vanishingly small that population is in China compared to Poland due to the immense population differences and the sizes of the countries in question. (Poland: nearly 40 million vs China: nearly 1.4 billion. )

Its like comparing the population of wizards across the Sword Coast with the population of wizards in Halruaa.

Context.

And far as I am seeing so far in the module there is no indicators of how relevant these gnomes are or anything really. Again. It is just there like the entry in Curse of Strahd.

Quote from: jhkim;1103655I dislike this sort of armchair psychologizing. By exactly this same logic, then if an author puts in 0% gay NPCs in a module, then they must be trying to erase gays - or they're deluded that gays don't really exist and are only manufactured by modern liberal propaganda - or they're just virtue signaling to conservative players. I don't think such motive-questioning is warranted.

Isn't that exactly what is happening? This is precisely why I say - why does it matter? Unless you *make* it matter in the context of the setting. This allows anyone to insert they want into the setting as they see fit without people have to do *exactly* what you say you don't want happening - that is actually happening.

Quote from: jhkim;1103655I don't have to know that an author's motives are pure. If it's a fun module, it's a fun module.

There doesn't need to be a special reason for an NPC to be gay, just like there doesn't need to be a special reason for that NPC to be straight.

Yes there does. Your post above just indicated that. Just because *you* don't see there is a reason why anything should be contextualized doesn't mean everyone else isn't doing that. Be they, straight, gay, from another culture, or whatever.

In some ways I think your position is worse in terms of play - because you're kinda saying "nothing matters". I'm saying if it's worth noting - then make it matter. That's a pretty big difference.

I think it's a larger stretch of the imagination to do what you're indicating and say "Ignore the jarring element in the room because it *could* happen" - never mind the conceits of the setting implied or otherwise.

Quote from: Omega;1103658We do not need to freaking know every damn NPC's orientation. We do not need to know even the important ones orientation unless it somehow impacts the adventure.

Or better yet. Do like we used to and leave it totally open so a DM or players can make of it what they will.

I don't know about you, but I used to play classic modules like Village of Hommlet and Ravenloft where they wouldn't pussyfoot around and would just say "Strahd loved Tatiana" or in Gygaxian "Smigmal is the leman of Falrinth". If you can't stand the mention of romantic relationships, then buy a Sharpie and black out those offensive lines. It's not like they take up much room, so I don't personally see the need - but you do you.

Quote from: Omega;1103658If I had been writing that section I would have added some notes as to why these two are an item. Even if it is as simple as - gnomes, or at least the ones in the Phandalin region, picked this up from the local elves who have a higher population with Blessing of Corellon and thus change gender like others change clothes. - And then tie that into the elves elsewhere in the book.

This presumes that in order to have a single gay couple, then the entire race has to change gender like others change clothes. If you want to have gnomes change gender in your game, then go right ahead. But it's not like that's necessary in order to have a single gay couple.

You walk into the throne room of Suzail, it is festooned with the finest Corymian decor, with additional handwoven carpets from far-flung Calimshan, bronzework statues from Chessenta, and draperies of the great Houses of Cormyr made of the finest Kozakuran silk. Standing on the throne is Fat Albert and the Gang, with Fat Albert wearing his Burger King Crown on his brow, held fast by a piece of half-chewed Wrigley's Juicy-Fruit gum in his hair. His chamberlain, Mushmouth steps forth...

"Heybuh Kibing Fabat Albubert. Hebere ibis yourba heberoes!"

With dimensional magic being possible in the Realms... there is *nothing* weird about this scene. Right?