Quote from: Brendan;1103359For example, if I were running a D&D game for my girls and Dave Rubin's kids, having two married gnome kings is probably fine and might serve as an interesting "hook"...If on the other hand, I were running an open all-ages game at a convention or meetup, or for my kids with friends from their school whose parents I didn't know, I would probably omit any reference to their relationship status.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1103362That's very different than:

"The gnomes could be co-ruling kings, as ancient Rome had for a period of time. Their relationship could be entirely non-sexual and the issue kept purely political, for gaming with younger players."

Not really.  It's more nuanced, but not substantially different.  I provided an example of when one might want to omit the details of the gnomes' relationship in gaming with kids, and when one might not.  I didn't go into this level of detail in my original post because I didn't think it was necessary.  

Quote from: jhkim;1103344I pretty regularly run games for younger players at conventions, so I try to keep an eye on things. I try to avoid defined romantic interests for the PCs, leaving those ambiguous or optional.

Quote from: Brendan;1103353According to Rhedyn, this impulse makes you a closet homophobe and you need to examine your biases.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1103362(This where you laugh your ass off) I didn't say that.

Correct, you did not, but it is functionally the same as the option that seems to have you all bothered.  Either its reasonable to avoid / gloss over the realities of adult romantic relationships in games with children, or it isn't.  If it's wrong for me to suggest it, and implies some hidden sinister impulse on my part, it is also wrong for jhkim and equally suspect.  If it is okay for jhkim to want to avoid these issues in games with younger children, it is also okay for me to suggest that some gamers might want to avoid these issues in games with younger children.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1103362Personally, I've only had a problem with your logic and the contradiction in what you are saying.

I gave three options, one of which I said might be more appropriate for less mature gaming groups.  At no point did I say one was necessary or required. You may not like my position but that isn't a logic issue.  I'm not even sure HOW I could have logically contradicted myself, let alone where.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1103362I am far too apathetic about homosexuality to care about your's or anyone's opinion unless you were harassing someone I know.

Really?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1103296You know this opinion is considered hate speech?

... Just admit that you aren't comfortable with gay people in general and that this has little to do with how it was depicted here for you.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1103325Ooo touched a nerve.

No I'm not going to apologize. One thing this forum let's you do is call people out on their bullshit.

It's one thing to think this was a poorly done portrayal or maybe not wanting to upset parents at a school group (after all you don't control how other people raise their kids). It's another to imply that people in gay relationships are inappropriate for children.

Maybe you need to check yourself and what you really think about them. You may be very tolerant, but that isn't the same thing as accepting, which kind of colors your review of this particular aspect of this product.

There are a lot of people here who don't like sloppy writing. There are people here who just don't like gay people. And then there are people here who think tolerating gay people means you like them but find their inclusion in anything a detraction from the media.

Yes, clearly apathetic.  

Quote from: Rhedyn;1103362You assumed I am a liberal. I am not, I am a philosopher, which is academic speak for asshole.

Are you an academic?  That would explain a lot about the structure of this argument.  Unfortunately, it means you're probably doomed.

Quote from: Shasarak;1103368If you have Gay Gnome Kings does that mean they are Queens?


I'll show myself out.

I asked my a-fore mentioned gay friend, let's call him "J", how he would deal with the Gay Gnome Gnings.  This is his response (copy/pasted verbatim)

Quote from: Jas faggots are generally emotional bitches who are starving themselves, so you take king #1 out on a shopping spree and buy him chocolate cake, then fat shame him which keeps him busy while the others go out and explain to the emprisoned queer king that many other less fortunate people are also in prison and he needs to accept his gnome privilege and quit whining

I have no further comment.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1103278I got the EK, but from what I heard it's more like a loose collection of location scenarios than an adventure, per se, and thus will be harder to run for a new GM than the Starter Set. I still need to read the EK and see for myself.

That is how it felt at a glance. That may be because it is more a freeform approach than a linear one. I'll look at it more closely soon.

Quote from: Brendan;1103372Correct, you did not, but it is functionally the same as the option that seems to have you all bothered. Either its reasonable to avoid / gloss over the realities of adult romantic relationships in games with children, or it isn't. If it's wrong for me to suggest it, and implies some hidden sinister impulse on my part, it is also wrong for jhkim and equally suspect. If it is okay for jhkim to want to avoid these issues in games with younger children, it is also okay for me to suggest that some gamers might want to avoid these issues in games with younger children.

You specified gay gnomes "The gnomes could be co-ruling kings, as ancient Rome had for a period of time. Their relationship could be entirely non-sexual and the issue kept purely political, for gaming with younger players."

You have also clearly stated that it is not a problem for King and Queen to have an implied relationship for younger players.

I am pointing out how you do not lump those relationships together. If you want to clarify that you do and you meant that it would interesting and more appropriate for young players if "The gnomes could be a co-ruling King and Queen, as ancient Rome had for a period of time with their two consuls. Their relationship could be entirely non-sexual and the issue kept purely political, for gaming with younger players.", then fine. You are then treating the relationships as the same.

Quote from: Brendan;1103372Correct, you did not, but it is functionally the same as the option that seems to have you all bothered.  Either its reasonable to avoid / gloss over the realities of adult romantic relationships in games with children, or it isn't.  If it's wrong for me to suggest it, and implies some hidden sinister impulse on my part, it is also wrong for jhkim and equally suspect.  If it is okay for jhkim to want to avoid these issues in games with younger children, it is also okay for me to suggest that some gamers might want to avoid these issues in games with younger children.

There is a huge difference between

(a) pre-casting young players into romantic storylines with other players

(b) simply mentioning a romantic relationship between two NPCs

Yes, I avoid (a) with younger players. From experience, it can be awkward for both players. But (b) strikes me as insane. This isn't a preschool -- if a kid can play RPGs, they're old enough to have stuff like killing, or two people being married, or being mean to someone else. A kid-friendly game doesn't mean being more sanitized than a Disney cartoon.

Quote from: Shasarak;1103368If you have Gay Gnome Kings does that mean they are Queens?


I'll show myself out.

Quote from: Mistwell;1103384

Proof that Bard is the best character class.

I said that the King and Queen did not REQUIRE explanation, whereas two married co-Kings is unusual and therefore does.

I am not trying to "treat them the same", because they're not. One is a well established cultural and mythological institution, exists in every recorded human culture, and is based on the biological fact of human reproduction and the political need to establish clear lines of inheritance.  The other is a relatively modern phenomenon, based on a very recent emotional/psychological view of marriage, and grows largely from the need to stabilize human relations after a sexual revolution less than two generations old.  

This doesn't mean that gay married couples shouldn't be wished success and happiness and welcomed into public life.  They absolutely should.  It doesn't mean that you absolutely CAN'T have gay characters in your RPGs, whether with adults or children.  It's your game.  Do what you want.

What it does mean is that if you find it odd to re-cast sleeping beauty as a twink when telling bed-time stories to your six year old, and politely decline to do so, that doesn't make you a fucking bigot.

Quote from: Omega;1103376That is how it felt at a glance. That may be because it is more a freeform approach than a linear one. I'll look at it more closely soon.

hey mAcular heres what the adventure book does.

There is a sort of "Help Wanted" board and initially there are 3 starting quests. One to a dwarven excavation, one to escort a priestess back to town, and one for the aformentioned gnomes.

After you do 2 of these jobs then 3 follow-up quests appear.

Once you have done 2 of those then 3 more follow-up quests appear.

So it is a cross between free ranging and and quest sites.

But there are also a few places that are not on the quest roster that PCs can come across via exploration, maps, NPCs they meet, or rumours they hear.

Quote from: Brendan;1103387What it does mean is that if you find it odd to re-cast sleeping beauty as a twink when telling bed-time stories to your six year old, and politely decline to do so, that doesn't make you a fucking bigot.

What if Sleeping Beauty was always a dude of slender build? Would you have altered the bed-time story then?

Heck why are you against reading that kind of bed-time story to a 6 year old? What if it was an entirely new story that was excellently written?

*assuming parents of said child are not the easily triggered kind that Reeee like the Russian government when the word 'gay' is said around children. If you are once again hiding behind the intolerance of other people, then that is logically consistent.

Quote from: jeff37923;1103065Wouldn't that better represent his Twitter account?

Man, that is so dead on.:-)

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103067What are you, a fucking Nazi? Go back to oppressing women.

King Drumpf is a goblin alright, but he's got a huge chunk of his brain missing. So this brain damage make him more stupid than anything. He's the stupidest!

Isn't that what I implied? (I'm lost on the Nazi comment, though).

Quote from: cranebump;1103397Isn't that what I implied? (I'm lost on the Nazi comment, though).

I'm the one virtue signaling here! Get your own thread!

Quote from: jeff37923;1103385Proof that Bard is the best character class.

Bard or Champion?

Quote from: Brendan;1103387I said that the King and Queen did not REQUIRE explanation, whereas two married co-Kings is unusual and therefore does.

I am not trying to "treat them the same", because they're not. One is a well established cultural and mythological institution, exists in every recorded human culture, and is based on the biological fact of human reproduction and the political need to establish clear lines of inheritance.  The other is a relatively modern phenomenon, based on a very recent emotional/psychological view of marriage, and grows largely from the need to stabilize human relations after a sexual revolution less than two generations old.

So you're saying that there shouldn't be anything *unusual* in a fantasy game for kids?!? I mean, it's a frickin fantasy game. I've had all sorts of unusual stuff in my games for kids. Run your games however you want, but I don't see that something being unusual -- or even unique -- is a reason to keep it away from kids.

Quote from: Brendan;1103387This doesn't mean that gay married couples shouldn't be wished success and happiness and welcomed into public life.  They absolutely should.  It doesn't mean that you absolutely CAN'T have gay characters in your RPGs, whether with adults or children.  It's your game.  Do what you want.

What it does mean is that if you find it odd to re-cast sleeping beauty as a twink when telling bed-time stories to your six year old, and politely decline to do so, that doesn't make you a fucking bigot.

Sure, everyone can run games the way they like. But we can compare notes and ask questions -- that's why this is a discussion site. If someone says that sleeping beauty should be re-cast for kids -- I think it's reasonable to ask why. Conversely, if someone says that married kings should be re-cast for kids, I think it's reasonable to ask why.