You know what I'm talking about. Spells like Goodberry that produce 10 berries that each can create a merry-go-round of people getting knocked to 0 hp and then getting right back up, feeding a berry to someone else, etc.
Considering how easy it is to get them, it seems like it'll just shatter any immersion with people walking around with a bag of them every day.
Is it supposed to be this way?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;861122You know what I'm talking about. Spells like Goodberry that produce 10 berries that each can create a merry-go-round of people getting knocked to 0 hp and then getting right back up, feeding a berry to someone else, etc.
Considering how easy it is to get them, it seems like it'll just shatter any immersion with people walking around with a bag of them every day.
Is it supposed to be this way?
I know you weren't asking about Goodberry alone, but with regard to that particular spell, a technical reading of the spell can solve that problem for you.
Goodberry requires someone to use their own action to eat the Goodberry, which one can't do if one is unconscious.
As some of the recent threads on immersion bear witness, folks have different thresholds for immersion-breaky-ness. In any case, I'm a fan of tweaking things to how you like them. I suppose the only gotcha here is if you have a player who is invested in a particular gimmick, and doesn't agree with you on the immersion-breaky point. Things can get testy there, but that's a different topic.
Quote from: Natty Bodak;861133I know you weren't asking about Goodberry alone, but with regard to that particular spell, a technical reading of the spell can solve that problem for you.
Goodberry requires someone to use their own action to eat the Goodberry, which one can't do if one is unconscious.
As some of the recent threads on immersion bear witness, folks have different thresholds for immersion-breaky-ness. In any case, I'm a fan of tweaking things to how you like them. I suppose the only gotcha here is if you have a player who is invested in a particular gimmick, and doesn't agree with you on the immersion-breaky point. Things can get testy there, but that's a different topic.
Couldn't another player use their own Action to feed the downed character a berry though? Same with a health potion.
The way that I look at, the more powers and abilities that the party has that can make downed heroes rise up without much trouble, the more I turn up the danger and peril. After all, if the possibility of death is lessened via spells and class abilities, then a slight increase in chance of being knocked out shouldn't be that big of a deal, right?
(For perspective, I've been running a campaign of 5e for nearly a year and have had about a dozen KO's but no deaths yet)
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;861142Couldn't another player use their own Action to feed the downed character a berry though? Same with a health potion.
Not to be flip about it, but if you want it to be that way, sure.
The DMG specifically mentions spending an action to consume a potion or to administer a potion to another character, so there it would seem to explicitly allow giving a potion to another (presumably unconscious) character. There is no similar wording for Goodberry.
You could make an argument that one might give unconscious people liquids, but never solids because of the danger of choking. And you could make a counterargument of "magic!"
If you're in the position that popping Goodberries into the mouth of a downed character to pop them back up in combat is goofy/anti-immersional/whate-have-you (and honestly, I'm with you on that), there's nothing in the rules to say that it should be allowed*.
And nothing to say it shouldn't*.
* As far as I know...
It takes an action to feed someone the berry. An action is a precious thing, especially in a tense fight where people are getting knocked to 0. Think of all the damage the berry-feeder isn't doing for an entire turn for instance.
This situation doesn't bother me much as a result, but I'll admit a steady diet of Final Fantasy games has made me feel it's ok for mechanics and fiction to be somewhat detached.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;861122Is it supposed to be this way?
I think that 5th ed is a different beast from 3e and 4e altogether. See my sig for my thoughts on it.
TL;DR version is "It is as if the design team would have had an epiphany that it is not their problem what goes on in each individual gaming table, it is the job of the dungeon masters to even things out. This is a real improvement to the viewpoint that both 3.x and 4e tried to convey. “We tell you how it is supposed to be played”."
That is not immersion breaking spells. That is immersion breaking playstyle. And if the players are doing this on a regular basis then one would guess it is not immersion breaking for them.
I can just imagine players popping berries to save eachother while wailing to the heavens why god why!?!
ahem.
Is using a healing kit then "immersion breaking" what about listening at every door? Checking every 10ft square for traps and secrets? Anything done to excess can be a problem. And that is not a factor of any game.
As for Goodberry. An unconcious person cannot eat one as the rules for the berry specifically say the character must use an action to eat one. Nothing about feeding one to someone else. If you allow feeding an unconcious person one then that is on the DM.
I dunno about you guys, but on the face of it cramming food or drink into the mouth of an unconscious person sounds like a terrible idea - pretty much an ideal recipe for a choking hazard, or for something to go down the wrong way, or whatever.
Quote from: Warthur;861358I dunno about you guys, but on the face of it cramming food or drink into the mouth of an unconscious person sounds like a terrible idea - pretty much an ideal recipe for a choking hazard, or for something to go down the wrong way, or whatever.
I like the irony of choking to death on a magical healing fruit, but in practical terms it doesn't sound like a fun way to fix the problem.
Quote from: Warthur;861358I dunno about you guys, but on the face of it cramming food or drink into the mouth of an unconscious person sounds like a terrible idea - pretty much an ideal recipe for a choking hazard, or for something to go down the wrong way, or whatever.
I think that is probably why you can't feed someone else a berry in 5e.
Whose 'immersion' is getting broken? How? From the things you call out, this doesn't seem like any usage of the term I've encountered, but maybe there are details in the 5e version that weren't mentioned and might be more relevant.
This is why historical healing magic often took the forms of pills, powders or ointments.
Quote from: Phillip;861706Whose 'immersion' is getting broken? How? From the things you call out, this doesn't seem like any usage of the term I've encountered, but maybe there are details in the 5e version that weren't mentioned and might be more relevant.
Because you could in theory end up taking several times more damage than you could ever take just because it wasn't in 1 turn, because it knocks you to 0 and stops there.
You have 20 HP, you take 35 and hit 0. Someone revives you to 1 hp that turn.
You take another 35 HP of damage and hit 0 again. Now you've taken a total of 70 damage, but you're still at 0 and someone can revive you again just fine like nothing happened.
You take another 35 damage, and you've taken a total of 105 damage but you're still at 0.
When you think of it as in-game events it just doesn't make sense. Somebody's body is going to give out after taking that much pummeling on the edge of death.
As long as it doesnt take the character past their HP total. Yes.
But keep in mind someone has to waste an action stabalizing the downed character and if they arent fast enough then that could be the end o that character.
My personal problem is with non-magical aid popping the KOed character back up. Magic is magic - Spells, Potions, Powers - these things tend to defy natural laws and so arent an issue. Bandaging someone and having them up and running, even if its just 1 HP is ok. Having them up and down over and over can get a little funky. YMMV of course. Maybe its magical bandages?
Quote from: Omega;862699Having them up and down over and over can get a little funky. YMMV of course. Maybe its magical bandages?
That's what I meant. Knock them down, they get up, knock them down, they get up, knock them down, they get up. After a while it feels absurd.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;861122You know what I'm talking about. Spells like Goodberry that produce 10 berries that each can create a merry-go-round of people getting knocked to 0 hp and then getting right back up, feeding a berry to someone else, etc.
Considering how easy it is to get them, it seems like it'll just shatter any immersion with people walking around with a bag of them every day.
Is it supposed to be this way?
You're tilting at the wrong windmill there. The immersion breaking bit is that a person functions at 100% effectiveness with 1 HP when their total may be 100+, and 0 equals unconsciousness.
DnD has never had 'immersive' or 'simulationist' damage in its core.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;862705That's what I meant. Knock them down, they get up, knock them down, they get up, knock them down, they get up. After a while it feels absurd.
Take note though that in 5e they specifically call falling to 0 HP as "Falling unconcious"
Stabalizing them just puts them to a stable 0. Which so far makes sense.
Any sort of HP recovery though ops them back up. A healing kit just removes the need for a WIS check.
So it takes some sort of healing effect to actually pop them back up. Which I guess makes sense because. MAGIC! Or they recover in time. 1d4 hours.
So its not as horrible as some make it out to be. But if you have players well armed with healing potions you can get alot of up and down.
Quote from: dbm;862713You're tilting at the wrong windmill there. The immersion breaking bit is that a person functions at 100% effectiveness with 1 HP when their total may be 100+, and 0 equals unconsciousness.
DnD has never had 'immersive' or 'simulationist' damage in its core.
And I like it that way. Maybe it's because I came into tabletop from video games, but the ease of recovery and the lack of "death spiral" mechanics has never bothered me.
I've run Legend of the Five Rings, which does have a death spiral mechanic, and players gripe a lot about how one solid hit means you're effectively out of the fight even if you still have a lot of "HP" (in L5R terms) left.
Quote from: Omega;862715So its not as horrible as some make it out to be. But if you have players well armed with healing potions you can get alot of up and down.
Even given magic, I expect some consistency - for example, I would expect that the same spell should undo roughly the same amount of damage.
In 5E, a 1 hit point cure effect has almost no effect on a conscious person, but on an unconscious person, it can completely undo the effect of massive blows. That feels weird to me.
The phase of combat where PCs start popping up and down still seems really strange and immersion-breaking to me. It comes across more as a meta-game artifact than an effect of in-game magic.
A quick glance through 5es spells and in particular the cantrips shows no such ability. The Cleric has "Spare the Dying" cantrip. But all that does is stabalize a person. It can not wake them.
As for a spell doing 1 HP heal and waking someone. So? Perhaps all the rest of the magic went into reviving them. And in 5e you actually may not be able to heal for just 1 HP. You get the roll + your bonus. Goodberry as noted may not be administered to an unconcious person. (Though a DM might allow it.) But even that is a limited magic and requires action on someone elses part to apply. Outside of the nominally quirky berry its not so unreasonable.
If you dont want people getting back up full force then here is a simple fix. Apply a level of Exhaustion each time they are revived. Or several levels of exhaustion if they were hit or failed a death save along the way before reviving. Its what I use.
Quote from: dbm;862713You're tilting at the wrong windmill there. The immersion breaking bit is that a person functions at 100% effectiveness with 1 HP when their total may be 100+, and 0 equals unconsciousness.
DnD has never had 'immersive' or 'simulationist' damage in its core.
In some editions there's a strange inconsistency in this regard. For example, in B/X, if you don't rest for 10 minutes after an hour of dungeon exploration, you take a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls. So you can be in a life-or-death struggle, losing 95% of your hit points, and still attack at full strength, but walking at a snail's pace for an hour without taking a break will bring your fighting ability down a notch or two.
BX dungeoncrawling speed is 12ft per minute. (120' in 10 minutes)The rules state this is because the PCs are mapping, searching, and trying to be quiet as they go. As well as the dark environ. Which would be tiring after 50 minutes of that. Note that the penalty is a one time thing. Not cumulative.
The druid in my campaign mostly sits around chomping down goodberries and smiling while party members are making their death saves. He wears a girdle of wild goat skin and goes about barefoot. He really contributes nothing to any adventure in which he is involved but he's a funny enough player that we tolerate him.
Quote from: David Johansen;862826The druid in my campaign mostly sits around chomping down goodberries and smiling while party members are making their death saves. He wears a girdle of wild goat skin and goes about barefoot. He really contributes nothing to any adventure in which he is involved but he's a funny enough player that we tolerate him.
The druid's been pretty strong in my Abyss campaign...Goodberry pretty much nukes the whole "must forage for food and water in the Underdark" aspect of the campaign.
Druids are very DM-dependent. We're playing Razor Coast using 5e and our Druid is still using the same combat firm he had at 4th level even though we are now 8th. He has even taken two levels of Barbarian as a raging crocodile is fairly nasty (the DM allowed him to use the Brown bear as a base for the stats). He has only just seen a more dangerous animal form to adopt.
Of course nothing can legislate for a player who's concept is "my character dosen't get involved". We have a different,player who regularly falls into that trap...
Quote from: Doom;862827The druid's been pretty strong in my Abyss campaign...Goodberry pretty much nukes the whole "must forage for food and water in the Underdark" aspect of the campaign.
Where's he been getting the mistletoe needed to cast it?
Quote from: Omega;862824BX dungeoncrawling speed is 12ft per minute. (120' in 10 minutes)The rules state this is because the PCs are mapping, searching, and trying to be quiet as they go. As well as the dark environ. Which would be tiring after 50 minutes of that. Note that the penalty is a one time thing. Not cumulative.
My point was, if that's tiring enough to impose a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls, shouldn't a fight to the death in which you're brought down to 1 hp from having had 50 be at least as tiring? And yet the latter doesn't entail any similar penalties.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862837Where's he been getting the mistletoe needed to cast it?
Components aren't used in casting unless specifically said as such. So, one sprig is good for a lifetime. The whole "casters can never be inconvenienced" paradigm of 5e is all well and good until the party starts meeting casters, though.
Quote from: Doom;862854Components aren't used in casting unless specifically said as such. So, one sprig is good for a lifetime. The whole "casters can never be inconvenienced" paradigm of 5e is all well and good until the party starts meeting casters, though.
Now, this is a MASSIVE assumption for me, but assuming (and I admit that I could be wrong) that you've started the Abyss adventure as written, the PC start captured with everything stripped from them in terms of gear. That sprig is supposed to be gone, along with anything else PC's come equipped with. That was my point.
If you didn't have them captured, then that's fine, ignore my statement. Just in my case, because I'm running the Adventure's League at my local Game Store, I had to follow the adventure as it was written.
(And it's on page 203 of the PHB, unless it states that the material component is consumed, it's not. And
Goodberry does NOT say the item is consumed.)
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;861142Couldn't another player use their own Action to feed the downed character a berry though? Same with a health potion.
How does an unconscious character chew and swallow? Even if you stuck it down their throat wouldn't it likely cause a blockage of the windpipe and lead to suffocation?
Questions like are above are why I like 5E and postulate that immersion-breaking in this edition is a bit harder, because those are all legitimate questions you can contend with if you so desire.
Otherwise, if we start thinking goodberries are immersion-breaking then I have to ask why we aren't looking at magic missile as immersion breaking (always hit, no matter what???) and that way lies not merely madness but other, more mundane games that do not deal with magic.
It looks like "immersion-breaking spell" here really means, "I let players do something I think is absurd, but I don't want to take responsibility for creating my own problem."
That could be a distraction, though, from a real issue, something like that the dude just doesn't like healing magic that gets casualties leaping back into action. I think that stylistic preference in magic is not very helpfully described as "immersion breaking." It just is what it is, and one can choose to play a role in such a world or not.
The simple solution is what it has ever been: don't like it, don't use it. You're the Game Master, not a slave to some book. If there isn't tons more 'Official' stuff, covering an even greater gamut of "Too silly, or just enough?" half a decade hence, then WotC will be falling down on the job. Start now to decide for yourself what fits or doesn't fit your own campaign.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862886Now, this is a MASSIVE assumption for me, but assuming (and I admit that I could be wrong) that you've started the Abyss adventure as written, the PC start captured with everything stripped from them in terms of gear. That sprig is supposed to be gone, along with anything else PC's come equipped with. That was my point.
If you didn't have them captured, then that's fine, ignore my statement. Just in my case, because I'm running the Adventure's League at my local Game Store, I had to follow the adventure as it was written.
(And it's on page 203 of the PHB, unless it states that the material component is consumed, it's not. And Goodberry does NOT say the item is consumed.)
The party can regain their equipment back in the very first adventure. I could, I supposed, take away all their material components...but that's severe neutering of the spellcasters. And, even if I did that, there's still the generic "component pouch" or "spellcasting focus" that gets around the component issue, as well.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;862705That's what I meant. Knock them down, they get up, knock them down, they get up, knock them down, they get up.
I believe this is called the "Chumbawamba defense."
Quote from: dbm;862835Druids are very DM-dependent.
More the factor is the druids ability is like the wizards. It is
adventure dependent.
Example. Way back. Playing completely through Keep on the Borderlands and Isle of Dread I as the groups magic user found all of 6 spells to add to my collection. One in Keep and the other 5 in Isle. And of those I found, 2 I already had.
Quote from: Doom;862936The party can regain their equipment back in the very first adventure. I could, I supposed, take away all their material components...but that's severe neutering of the spellcasters. And, even if I did that, there's still the generic "component pouch" or "spellcasting focus" that gets around the component issue, as well.
I've been running the adventure directly from the book, and it doesn't state anywhere that they get their gear back, I made that assumption and it turned out I was wrong.
Now, I ain't saying how you're doing it is wrong, it's your game after all, I was just curious as to how your team got their components back, is all.
As for neutering, it's been an interesting thing for my players, those that can, the Druid and Cleric (for example) started looking for spells without Material Components. It's been fun, and tense. Luckily healing spells don't need them.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862886(And it's on page 203 of the PHB, unless it states that the material component is consumed, it's not. And Goodberry does NOT say the item is consumed.)
Actually it does say the berry is consumed. But it does not say the sprig component is. So yeah. You can get a-lot of mileage out of that sprig.
Now the DM could be within their rights to require the sprig to be fresh and so it "wears out" after XYZ days. (Less than a week according to some mistletoe producers).
Quote from: Omega;862993Actually it does say the berry is consumed. But it does not say the sprig component is. So yeah. You can get a-lot of mileage out of that sprig.
Now the DM could be within their rights to require the sprig to be fresh and so it "wears out" after XYZ days. (Less than a week according to some mistletoe producers).
Huhn. OK, thanks for the info.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;862989I've been running the adventure directly from the book, and it doesn't state anywhere that they get their gear back, I made that assumption and it turned out I was wrong.
Let me help you out here.
Page 14 of the Out of the Abyss book, in room 7, the very last paragraph (right above the section describing room 8):
"Additionally, the chest contains any valuables once held by the characters and NPCs, including any spellbooks, components, focuses, and magic items lost in the adventure."
Now, it certainly is possible for characters not to search this room. While the chest is locked, the dungeon layout is such that players that do much in the way of exploring will find this room, so it really seems like most players of this adventure will get their stuff back in a fairly convenient and the wholesale manner leads me to believe that the writers of this adventure rather intended this to happen.
Certainly, it could be much more intense without getting their stuff back...but the book I'm running the adventure out of sure allows for a high probability of the characters getting their stuff back.
Quote from: aspiringlich;862844My point was, if that's tiring enough to impose a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls, shouldn't a fight to the death in which you're brought down to 1 hp from having had 50 be at least as tiring? And yet the latter doesn't entail any similar penalties.
Per BX RAW you are expected to be resting for nearly 10 minutes after each fight. If the PCs refuse to do that then certainly it seems reasonable to apply the same -1 penalty.
Quote from: Omega;862963More the factor is the druids ability is like the wizards. It is adventure dependent.
Example. Way back. Playing completely through Keep on the Borderlands and Isle of Dread I as the groups magic user found all of 6 spells to add to my collection. One in Keep and the other 5 in Isle. And of those I found, 2 I already had.
Well, given the DM creates or runs the adventures I stand by my assertion. :)
I think Wizards have it easier than Druids. At least you get to pick two spells of your choice when you level up. The Druid has no such mechanism for learning new forms.
Quote from: dbm;863009Well, given the DM creates or runs the adventures I stand by my assertion. :)
I think Wizards have it easier than Druids. At least you get to pick two spells of your choice when you level up. The Druid has no such mechanism for learning new forms.
Youd be wrong then at some tables. If it does not fit the adventure either as fleshed out by the DM or from an unfolding freeform then it isnt going to show. The DM is not obligated to cater to your class.
As noted in an older thread on druids. The PC should start off with a base collection of animals known fitting their starting location. That should give non-Moon druids a good enough spread. For a moon druid. Finding those higher level forms could be an adventure unto itself. Convincing the group (and DM possibly) to set out to look for new creatures forms to learn.
If the DM is not imposing limits on the setting then a druid should be able to easily pick up a horse, dog, cat, and even an elephant by wandering around a city since PCs can buy elephants.
And so on.
For some players finding the extras is half the fun of the class. Others want their ubah powah nowah! As usual. Depends on the group.
Quote from: Omega;863016The DM is not obligated to cater to your class.
You're right. You could almost say that it depends on the DM, even that it was DM dependent...
Quote from: S'mon;863003Per BX RAW you are expected to be resting for nearly 10 minutes after each fight. If the PCs refuse to do that then certainly it seems reasonable to apply the same -1 penalty.
Even in OD&D/AD&D (with one-minute rounds), I find that it works well to round up to a 10-minute turn assumed to get filled out with patching up and rest. It would be a notable situation if people were too hard pressed for that. A -1 penalty seems if anything lenient (though accumulation could become a big deal).
Quote from: dbm;863044You're right. You could almost say that it depends on the DM, even that it was DM dependent...
As said. Not necessarily. In a freeform game it may not, and in a module game it will not. (without the DM actually catering which is a totally different matter.)
As noted. If it doesnt fit, then dont expect it to be there.
You are crossing a freshwater river 100klm from the ocean. Why are you bemoaning the lack or Orcas to study?
I have the Knock spell memorized. I do not expect or demand that there be a locked door or chest for me to use the spell on.