This came up over on RPGG and while the argument keeps drifting to pendanticland. There is a point in there I wonder?

Goes like this.

Opportunity attacks trigger when someone leaves reach. Which is normally 5ft.

Weapons with the Reach addition though have a 10ft reach when attacking. Additionally Polearm Master adds Opportunity when someone enters reach.

The argument being that Reach weapons create a problem by actually extending the safe movement zone around the weilder. The enemy could run round and round at 9ft and never trigger OA.

But someone walks into that 10ft radius and that triggers OA for the Polearm Master.

Or does Reach only apply to straight up attacks and OA does not count?

And on a related bit off topic note. I thought Opportunity attacks used up your attack for the round. Or is it like a bonus and added on? And of added. Then the full attack spread?

There's no problem, it's all very easy.

Reach extends your melee weapon reach by 5'.

Weapon Properties
Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 47.)

Opportunity Attacks are still attacks.

Opportunity Attacks only occur when a hostile someone (that you can see) leave another someone's reach.

Opportunity Attacks use your reaction.

Everyone gets per start of their turn:
1x Action
1x Move
1x Bonus Action Slot (zero to many bonus actions may be available to use this slot)
1x Free Interact with Environment
1x Reaction.

Opportunity Attacks
     In a fight, everyone is constantly watching for enemies to drop their guard. You can rarely move heedlessly past your foes without putting yourself in danger; doing so provokes an opportunity attack.

     You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack interrupts the provoking creature’s movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach.

     You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. For example, you don’t provoke an opportunity attack if an explosion hurls you out of a foe’s reach or if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 74.)

Polearms Master feat is a rules exception that allows you to use your opportunity attack under an additional circumstance: Entering Your Reach.

If your Reach is 10', as long as they never exit out into 11', they do not trigger Opportunity Attack's clause.

Yes, Rank Formation is a good thing.

Any other questions?

So basically what I said.

That was what this fellow is getting hung up on. That using a polearm makes you less effective at that.

I thought about that and it makes a sort of sense because one of the things they teach you is to try and get inside the effective range of a weapon so that they cannot bring it to bear on you as easily. The pointy end it now past you. (if its a spear or most pole arms and even a few swords.)

Yes, a polearm without help from a formation will suffer from lack of Opportunity Attacks. This is a good thing, it mimics close to life. Some players are complaining because they don't nova in a snowflake blizzard of diamond dust off on their lonesome. The complaint is ridiculous, and you had it right.

Yeah. I recalled my one session in Ragnarok, a sort of less safe boffer combat game and I had a spear and was up against their best guy who was just mowing down opponents in a sort of arena contest.

He got inside my spear and it was wham-wham and over. But I scored a leg hit and was one of only three out of about a dozen to even touch him. Being small had its advantages. But once he was inside the spear that was that.

He obliterated me in a an earlier test. Two short swords vs me in shield and sword. He was big enough to reach over my shield and tag me. Darn giants!

The misconception here is that being able to move around at 9 feet is a advantage against a pole arm weilder. It not because the fighter with the pole arm is able to attack the runner normally. Including if the attacker is within 5 feet. It may mean something against one of the pole arm fighter's allies or that the target gets to continue to use ranged attacks without disadvantage being more. than 5 feet away but that is as good as it gets.

EDIT: nevermind, I misunderstood. Obviously you can attack someone WITHIN your reach, right?

You can obviously attack within reach. The complaint is about the expectation to trigger more uses of one's Reaction. What's the most commonly available offensive reaction? Opportunity Attacks.

One of the big things with Rogues is trying to maximize triggering Opportunity Attacks as well, because you can Sneak Attack with it too. Similarly, a polearm master not using its reaction in attacking people either entering or leaving is also not maximizing. Basically you want to milk action economy for every last damage-per-round drop.

It's very white room analysis, as any wargamer can tell you that once you hit the table it is hard to control the variables of battle. But to whine without working together with your party in formation? That's just sad.

Regular reach is 8 squares. Ten foot reach is 16 squares. Sure if you're the lone polearm PC spread out upon an empty field it sucks. But a squad of polearms? Nasty. You can lock people into squares facing multiple OAs & space out against AoE attacks. You can tight formation and get twice as much melee attacks per forward face. And so on.

But that requires party coordination and adaption. Many new players don't take an array of weapons like we used to. It's all over-invest in one's single trick.

Quote from: estar;815065The misconception here is that being able to move around at 9 feet is a advantage against a pole arm weilder.

Exactly. This fellow was hung up for some reason on the Opportunity Attack thing. But think we are starting to get closer to understanding. Assuming he doesn't obsess.

Unfortunately... he obsessed... Though he has some good points in there.

Quote"Omega2064" I played in one of the rougher boffer melee simulators. And its been stated in instructional videos as well as demonstrated.

Quick example. I was in an arena style fight against one of the best. He had a sword and I had a spear. He got in past the spear and it was wham-wham and I was done. But I was one of the few to actually score a hit (leg) on him the whole contest. Once he was past the spear that was it.

"TheisMagle" Are you talking about a computer game o real life fighting? But it is a ruleset, that has to be balance. I like the 3.5 more than 5e, but I still need to find the right balance in the game system before realisme.
But again it is more a argument of disadvange in close combat than other things...

"Omega2064" Read the comment on Opportunity attack. It says that you stop the opponent moving at the edge of your range. So that means that the pole arm master can stop someone coming in that round at the edge. Theyd be inside thereafter. But that is a round possibly where they did not get to hit you.

"TheisMagle" where should I read this? on witch page. Nothing about in Players hand book page 195. Nothing about stoping them. On feat polearm Mastery on page 168 it also say nothing about stoping. Where do you get this stoping effekt from???

You talking about edge of range (belive you mean reach). But we just have a diffrent edge of reach. Yours 10 ft my 5 ft.

"Omega2064" If Both have polearm mastery here is the thing. One has to still move into the zone of the other to attack. So say I have my halberd and he has his. If I move in to hit him and he has mastery then I am going to trigger his OA the second I step in. I can still attack him. But He got first hit before me and if he has not attacked allready. He will get another attack on me soon after. Wham-Wham at 10ft vs 10ft.

"TheisMagle" If it's not about using the advange of a longer weapon, why is the ability only for polearm??? If you can do halberd vs halberd and attack him right when he inter you attack reach. Why should you not have that ability to Greatsword vs Greatsword. The advange come from the longe weapon and that you train to use this advange. You should not have it aginst other reachweapon. Or if you mean you should have it, normal weapon also should have the ability...

With regards to OA or Polearm Mastery ending one's movement, to put it simply, you're wrong, he's right. Only Sentinel feat stops movement outright with OA. OA, as written and cited above, merely interrupts the movement process to insert an attack.

As for him worried about great swords and axes being on par with polearms in some DPS pissing contest... :rolleyes: Polearms are already pretty much capped by d10 or Special text (lance). Besides, he's arguing within available weapon choices to a single best choice. There's no good argument about the unviability of other weapons, or class features limiting flexible utility.

We have this weird image of a lone lancer (or lone great axeman) lost on the plains with no other weapons. It's a bizarre image to argue from.

Quote from: Opaopajr;815116We have this weird image of a lone lancer (or lone great axeman) lost on the plains with no other weapons. It's a bizarre image to argue from.

Throughout most all of human history the reach of his weapon will be irrelevant since in any combat between the loner and the plains inhabitants the axe or lance clunched in the dead hands of his arrow riddled corpse won't be a threat to anyone.

I did enjoy your explanation of attacks of opportunity.

It is hard to describe my utter sense of bewilderment of returning to RPGs in '09 and looking at 3e/PF characters who wouldn't bother beyond a singular weapon. I would ask about at least a ranged weapon, or even a fucking dagger to cut rope!, and only get blank stares in return. Another weapon? Using rope? Who'd bother with that when you can fly, with sparkles!
:rolleyes:

5e might be causing system shock to a whole new generation by being rather grounded in comparison.

I think there's pretty good balance when two-handed weapons w/o reach do a little more damage (2d6) versus two-handed weapons w/ reach (10' reach, 1d10 damage). Weapons are pretty well balanced; each special feature diminishes damage.

There's times when a small weapon (dagger) is better than an one-handed weapon (longsword), a two-handed weapon (greataxe), or reach weapon (halbred). That's the nature of the fight. Circumstances and your opponent make a huge impact on weapon selection.

Of course, this is a common critique of mine with Fighters; rather than work to make the character versatile, so many players build them to be single-mindedly obsessed with a singular weapon, to get "best DPS" and other silly shit. The idea of Tripping, Disarming, and god forbid Sundering ("we're losing out on LOOT!") gear is lost on many players.

Quote from: Opaopajr;815119It is hard to describe my utter sense of bewilderment of returning to RPGs in '09 and looking at 3e/PF characters who wouldn't bother beyond a singular weapon. I would ask about at least a ranged weapon, or even a fucking dagger to cut rope!, and only get blank stares in return. Another weapon? Using rope? Who'd bother with that when you can fly, with sparkles!
:rolleyes:

5e might be causing system shock to a whole new generation by being rather grounded in comparison.

We used to carry different weapons, even where it didn't make a difference at all (and not considering the occasional golf bag of magic swords). Stone hammer (and wooden shield) for rust monsters, or resistance to edged weapons; silvered edged weapon for lycanthropes; spare one handed weapon if a critical hit disabled one of your arms and prevented two-handed weapon use. Even with encumbrance limits enforced, we still tried to max out the number of weapons (critical miss/broken weapon). My biggest disappointment with AD&D weapons was that the holy water sprinkler did not get bonus damage against undead.

I now need to make a mace-sized aspergillum & holy water bucket cleric.