The rules for copying spells in 5e are weird. They're both abstract and specific.
(http://images.sanctuary-inc.net/spellcopying.jpg)
It talks about needing 50gp per level to represent the inks you need. OK, so far so good, if you want to abstract it. But what if you're in a cave or somewhere? Then it just doesn't make sense. Are you supposed to get some inks beforehand? If so, then where does the 50 gold come into play. Or are you supposed to not worry about it at all, in which case it breaks immersion.
Also, can you copy spells from another wizard's spellbook? I thought you couldn't, because the spellbook doesn't have ACTUAL SPELLS but just the random gibberish and notes of the wizard who uses the book.
Furthermore, if copying a scroll consumes it, does copying from a spellbook (if possible) consume the spell in it?
Actually that does not sound very abstract?
You have to pay 50gp/level of the spell in experimenting and special inks.
Copying the spell into the book, or a backup does not remove it from the book. Unlike a scroll. You can not cast a spell from the book like a scroll either.
But where do you spend it. Do you just sit down and decide "OK I'm deducting 50 gp" and poof, like magic, you have some inks? Even if you're in a desert? Can you use these inks for other things? Or are they only limited to the scrolls?
See, stuff like that.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388It talks about needing 50gp per level to represent the inks you need. OK, so far so good, if you want to abstract it.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388But what if you're in a cave or somewhere? Then it just doesn't make sense. Are you supposed to get some inks beforehand? If so, then where does the 50 gold come into play. Or are you supposed to not worry about it at all, in which case it breaks immersion.
There is no by the book answer to this. I recommend one of the following.
1) Don't worry about as the main limitations are supposed to be the time and cost of copying the spells. If they have both then why not let them do it. I recommend this option for a campaign where sessions are infrequent.
2) Have spellcasters add a box to their characters called magical components. It is a gold piece value. Assign some ratio of gp per pound to represent the weight. I recommend from 100 to 1,000 gp per lb depending on your conception of what magical components are. The spellcaster can only buy more components at a magic/potion/alchemist/sage shop. Otherwise they are stuck with what they got.
I recommend this for an on-going campaign. It eliminates the hassle of tracking bit and pieces of components and in my experience supports immersion in a way that #1 doesn't.
3) Have a price list of components with cost and lists.
Mostly players find this overly fiddly. I only require named components if they are are of a significant value. For example a 1,000 gp diamond named as needed for a spell.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388Also, can you copy spells from another wizard's spellbook? I thought you couldn't, because the spellbook doesn't have ACTUAL SPELLS but just the random gibberish and notes of the wizard who uses the book.
There are no explicit rules forbidding this. There is one rule from the ritual caster feat that explicitly allows this.
From the Ritual Caster Feat
QuoteIf you come across a spell in written form, such as a magical spell scroll or a wizard's spellbook, you might be able to add it to your ritual book. The spell must be on the spell list for the class you chose, the spell's level can be no higher than half your level (rounded up), and it must have the ritual tag.
What about a copy from one spell book to another?
Read the box titled on page 114 again. Note that it doesn't say that each spellbook is unique to each spellcaster what is says
QuoteYour spellbook is a unique compilation of spells, with its own decorative flourishes and margin notes. It might be a plain, functional leather volume that you received as a gift from your master, a finely bound gilt-edged tome you found in an ancient library, or even a loose collection of notes scrounged together after you lost your previous spellbook in a mishap.
That it is a unique OBJECT. I have a red leather bound book, you have a blue leather bound book that kind of thing. Also note this.
Quotea finely bound gilt-edged tome you found in an ancient library
and this from What is a Spell? on Page 201
QuoteUncounted thousands of spells have been created over the course o f the multiverse's history, and many of them are long forgotten. Some might yet lie recorded in crumbling spellbooks hidden in ancient ruins or trapped in the minds of dead gods. Or they might someday be reinvented by a character who has amassed enough power and wisdom to do so.
If you are going by the book, then I would rule that you can copy from spellbook another spellbook.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388Furthermore, if copying a scroll consumes it, does copying from a spellbook (if possible) consume the spell in it?
The Spell Scroll rules in the DMG explicitly state that the spell scroll is consumed.
For spell books note replacing your book. I would rule that you can copy from spellbook to another spellbook without detroying the spells in the original.
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Final world. My view is that how your setting works is the primary determination of how you should rule on these things. I get why people want to go By The Book for their campaign but in end it comes down to your answer to the question "How does my setting work?" or in this case "How do spellbook and copying spells work in my setting?"
There are some rules for any edition of D&D that if you change it, the game become something else other than that edition. For example feats in 3e, or the proficiency bonus in 5e. How spellbooks is not one of those those type of rules. The only crucial rule of spellbooks to how D&D 5e works is that you need it to change your list of prepared spells if you are a wizard. And that you need your ritual book to cast a ritual spell if you are a ritual caster.
Beyond that go with what you think how your setting ought to work.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876417But where do you spend it. Do you just sit down and decide "OK I'm deducting 50 gp" and poof, like magic, you have some inks? Even if you're in a desert? Can you use these inks for other things? Or are they only limited to the scrolls?
See, stuff like that.
The rules assume you are not out in the field doing the research and copying because its time consuming and costly.
If you cannot get to a town and get some supplies then you can not copy the spell into your book.
Now if you expect to be out and away a long long time then you might want to purchase a supply of materials to the tune of 50gp per level of the spell as a precaution.
Same as copying a spell into your book and memorizing it does not magically hand you the components needed yo cast it if you didnt have them allready. No component (or focus) - no casting it.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876417But where do you spend it. Do you just sit down and decide "OK I'm deducting 50 gp" and poof, like magic, you have some inks? Even if you're in a desert? Can you use these inks for other things? Or are they only limited to the scrolls?
You can easily limit this activity to places where the necessary materials would be available; say, in a town with merchants who can supply various spell components. Back when, we NEVER recovered spells except by going home to somewhere safe, and studying for several weeks. Characters just couldn't undertake spell research or spell book copying or enchanting magic items in the wilderness (or even recover many hit points from resting). I think the DMG has various options for making rests easier or harder.
If you do let players copy spells in the wilderness, you can require that they purchase supplies in advance; or you can abstract it a bit, and say that the character bought the inks (and components that get used up) the last time they had the opportunity even if it wasn't mentioned, or you can even invent some system by which some form of magic delivers these goods in return for the appropriate amount of coins. It also depends on how carefully you're enforcing the various material component rules for spell casting; it doesn't seem right to enforce the same thing carefully in one area but not in others.
There is some measure of game balance intended: a cost imposed on wizards in return for potentially having access to more spells than other arcane casters get. Some characters save up their money to get someone to cast the spell they need, or to buy good equipment or magic items; wizards also save up money to expand their list of spells when the opportunity arises. And there's also some vulnerability for the wizard, that they might lose their investment in their spellbook.
As to copying the notes and gibberish from some other wizard into your spell book, that's the deciphering part that takes several hours. I don't see anything that says this will not succeed if the time is taken; an enemy wizard could take various steps to protect their spellbook, but if those have been dealt with there does not appear to be any obstacle to acquiring the spells of suitable level, if you take the time and have the materials.
It sounds like your players did something you didn't like and you're looking for some rule to slap them down with. What did they do and why don't you like it?
If you don't want the characters to get spells from a captured spellbook every time they defeat a wizard, the simplest solution is to not let them find such a spellbook; a wizard who doesn't intend to prepare different spells can leave their spellbook somewhere safe.
Quote from: rawma;876530It sounds like your players did something you didn't like and you're looking for some rule to slap them down with. What did they do and why don't you like it?
Why do you always assume this? I just don't think the rule sounds very realistic, if per RAW you could go up into a mountain and throw 50 gp into the air and suddenly have your inks It's immersion breaking for me.
But the suggestions here so far are good. It just looks like by RAW you're still stuck.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876537Why do you always assume this? I just don't think the rule sounds very realistic, if per RAW you could go up into a mountain and throw 50 gp into the air and suddenly have your inks It's immersion breaking for me.
But the suggestions here so far are good. It just looks like by RAW you're still stuck.
Its more a problem you are reading RAW too litterally. The rule says that this process costs time, research and X gold worth of materials.
If you do not have the materials you can not copy the spell because a shop with those inks does not just poof into existence. The 50gp cost is useless if you have no access to a place you can buy the materials.
So your mage in a cave who finds Fireball on a scroll and has 150gp on hand. Can do nothing with the actual copying until they can get to a place where they can buy the needed materials.
Now if before setting out the wizard had the forethought to have purchased 150 worth of inks on the off chance they found a spell of 3rd level. Then they can sit down in their cave and have at it. Using up the 150 worth of wizard inks.
This is a case where rulings and not rules apply. The spirit of the rule is tacit: use common sense.
If every writer had to account for every particular wrinkle in the rules, we'd end up with another MERP. ;)
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876537Why do you always assume this?
Sorry! I didn't mean to offend.
The topics are interesting enough, even in the abstract, so it's OK either way. But if there's some underlying issue from actual play then we can offer more specific advice, and it seemed to me that it's often the case with your posts that there is. I will sincerely endeavor to avoid that assumption in the future, as I like 5e and don't want to discourage discussion of it.
In this particular abstract instance, I think you'd have more grounds for complaint if the rules said that a spell could always be copied on any short or long rest with automatic deduction of some number of gold pieces from the character's wealth. Clearly (well, to me) this copying should happen at an appropriate time and place, with appropriate steps to obtain the supplies needed; I don't see it as saying the inks automatically appear when you decide to copy a spell. Some groups don't track how many arrows are lost, most I've seen don't worry about material components except for ones with a cost that are consumed, a few barely track gold expenditures, and so on. If something's immersion breaking for you, then don't do it. Like the old joke:
Patient: It hurts when I do this!
Doctor: So don't do that!
Or, more briefly and less abrasively, what Omega and ZWEIHÄNDER said.
Or on the other hand a person might want to know what RAW actually is so he can be better informed when he makes a ruling.
I know 5e pretty well as a consequence of wanting learn it to publish for it eventually and practiced by answering questions over on RPG Stack Exchange. However in my campaign if the rules come into conflict with the reality of my setting, I am all about going "the rules can go to hell" and make a ruling that fits the situation. However because I learned 5e, most of the time I can make it consistent with how the system is designed.
Textual literalism is bad theology. It also is bad gaming.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;876597Textual literalism is bad theology. It also is bad gaming.
Well if we are going for the pithy one liner approach.
The problem is the application of the knowledge not the knowledge itself.
I don't see the issue.
Learning in a cave isn't going to work, it's like trying to build a chair out of 2x4s, but with no tools. You have to be in a spot where you can research in private, and yet, have access to all the materials necessary.
On an adventure doesn't allow you to do that.
Ah here's something a friend brought up.
If you have a party of multiple wizards, can the wizards all pass their spellbooks around and copy their spells off each other?
Also if it's 50 gp per level, does that mean cantrips are free?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876737If you have a party of multiple wizards, can the wizards all pass their spellbooks around and copy their spells of each other?
Yes an adventuring party would do that just that.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876737Also if it's 50 gp per level, does that mean cantrips are free?
Cantrips are not written in spellbooks. They are learned as part of the wizard's training as he levels. A cantrip is always available and can be cast at-will as many times during the day the wizard needs. There is no such thing as having extra cantrips.
If you want to CHANGE your existing selection of cantrips then you will need to make a ruling based on how you want it to work in your setting. I would recommend looking at the level training rules in the DMG and charge a fraction of the time and cost to do that
Quote from: rawma;876544Sorry! I didn't mean to offend.
No problem and thanks for the help.
Also interesting re: cantrips. I thought of them as "level 0" spells rather than something wholly different.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876737If you have a party of multiple wizards, can the wizards all pass their spellbooks around and copy their spells off each other?
Also if it's 50 gp per level, does that mean cantrips are free?
1: Yep. Trading spells used to be a passtime in BX and AD&D to fill in gaps.
2: Cantrips are imprinted in the caster and are akin to a power as it were. And as per the rules. You can not copy cantrips into a spellbook. Which re-inforces the idea that they are not treated as normal spells. Think of them as like race, backgrounds or feats. Once set. They dont change.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876417But where do you spend it. Do you just sit down and decide "OK I'm deducting 50 gp" and poof, like magic, you have some inks? Even if you're in a desert? Can you use these inks for other things? Or are they only limited to the scrolls?
See, stuff like that.
No, I would say "if you have the time" also means that you have access to the things you need.
If you're in a cave somewhere and didn't bring 50g in special inks beforehand just in case, you're shit out of luck.
And why wouldn't you, presuming you could afford it? It would probably be way lighter and less space-filling to take with you than coins, or even many gems.
Magical inks are common loot items when sacking wizard lairs. Or there may be a place to purchase magical inks in town, perhaps with ink prices changing with demand. Depending on background, the party may be able to harvest/make their own magical inks, which sounds like an adventure.
Quote from: Old One Eye;877423Magical inks are common loot items when sacking wizard lairs. Or there may be a place to purchase magical inks in town, perhaps with ink prices changing with demand. Depending on background, the party may be able to harvest/make their own magical inks, which sounds like an adventure.
I'd say that if inks are important to writing spells into spellbooks and scrolls, they should definitely be common loot items in Wizards' lairs.
But they should also be rare enough that they could only be bought in very large cities, for the most part.
Replace one or two of the "jewelry found" entries in the treasure table with "wizard inks"
IE in 5e replace one of the 25 gp Art Objects entry with "1 jar Wizard Ink", a 250 entry with "2 jars Wizard Ink" and so on.
I did the same with replacing some of those entries with trade goods like spices.
In 5e at least, the ink you see is just bottled ink, not "magic ink." And the ink you need to copy spells is just "fine inks."
So I don't think it would be that rare. Unless you just wanted to have some super rare special spell that needs special ink to copy.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;877807In 5e at least, the ink you see is just bottled ink, not "magic ink." And the ink you need to copy spells is just "fine inks."
So I don't think it would be that rare. Unless you just wanted to have some super rare special spell that needs special ink to copy.
True. But for me the reasoning for the general rarity is that the inks get used up fairly readily so at any given time a caster probably wont have much on them. Now a lair roll might be a different matter. But carried on the person I figured they might not have much on their person.
The entry says material components to experiment and the fine inks. So I bundle in some experimenting components with the inks. Normal inks cost 10gp.
Yeah that was another thing that confused me about the 50gp cost for copying the spell.
If it goes towards inks, how many bottles of ink are involved? 1? But then that's just 10 gold, there's still 40 left to account for. Or maybe it's 4 bottles of ink, leaving 10gp for other stuff.
If I want to make it more concrete that means figuring that stuff out.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;877933Yeah that was another thing that confused me about the 50gp cost for copying the spell.
If it goes towards inks, how many bottles of ink are involved? 1? But then that's just 10 gold, there's still 40 left to account for. Or maybe it's 4 bottles of ink, leaving 10gp for other stuff.
If I want to make it more concrete that means figuring that stuff out.
The cost implies that it may be 'magic' ink, after all.
The issue then becomes whether it should be allowed during stints in small towns where there aren't lots of expensive magical supplies. Suddenly the ability to copy spells is much more limited.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;877952The issue then becomes whether it should be allowed during stints in small towns where there aren't lots of expensive magical supplies. Suddenly the ability to copy spells is much more limited.
Fair enough.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;877952The issue then becomes whether it should be allowed during stints in small towns where there aren't lots of expensive magical supplies. Suddenly the ability to copy spells is much more limited.
Probably the point.
Its much like the PCs walking into some small town and expecting full plate in the shops or magic components in every town.
There are going to be times when, NO, you can not copy a spell because you are out in the boonies or away from more civilized locales.
Or the druid for example. The druid does not automatically know every animal shape in the PHB just because its in the PHB.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;877952The issue then becomes whether it should be allowed during stints in small towns where there aren't lots of expensive magical supplies. Suddenly the ability to copy spells is much more limited.
Thinking about matters such as this is one of my primary methods of world building. I find that setting up a rough supply chain for inks and other wizardry goods gives more grist-for-the-mill for a long-term sandbox than spending prep time on, say, some NPC' s backstory.
Are you REALLY saying that you need a rule to tell you that special inks are only available in places where special inks are available?
Just let them do whatever they want without restrictions or limits, they are wizards after all.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;878061Are you REALLY saying that you need a rule to tell you that special inks are only available in places where special inks are available?
Well if you just read the ability it doesn't say anything about that. If you were just a player reading that what would make you think you need anything but some spare time and 50gp?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878065Well if you just read the ability it doesn't say anything about that. If you were just a player reading that what would make you think you need anything but some spare time and 50gp?
Dood, it's Gronan, he's just here to spout that his way is the right way, because that's how he's been playing it since he was at Gygax's table.
er. The part where it says you need to spend 50gp per spell level in components to experiment and special inks to write it down? You even quoted it at the start?
QuoteFor each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it.
This is stuff that must be bought somewhere. That is what the 50/level cost represents. You dont just toss 50 gold in the air and poof! The characters are going to have to trudge into a town or city and look up the materials. Or have prepped beforehand and bought materials before setting off.
Seems like you are reading the entry too literally? Or not literally enough? Its hard to tell.
Addendum: Move down to the backup and replacement spellbook section. Are you also assuming that the book just appears from nowhere because it doesnt say "go out and buy one"?
Well, I don't understand why it says you need to use 50gp then. Or why it doesn't mention you need to have these materials beforehand. Why not just say "you need to use 50gp worth of ink and X Y and Z to do it."
The way it's written makes it sound like you throw up the 50gp and poof, there's your spell.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878072Well, I don't understand why it says you need to use 50gp then. Or why it doesn't mention you need to have these materials beforehand. Why not just say "you need to use 50gp worth of ink and X Y and Z to do it."
The way it's written makes it sound like you throw up the 50gp and poof, there's your spell.
Ok. I think I see the problem here.
You are reading "For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp." but not connecting it to the following "The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it."
The two have to be read together. Not read separately.
You need 50gp in stuff to do this. You can not do this without buying those 50gp worth of stuff and expending it.
Does that help?
Yes. It helps a lot. I guess my followup then is how do you know what components you need, specifically. If you want to buy the materials ahead of time so you can copy the spells even in the wilderness, wouldn't you need to know what these components are, so you can buy them at a shop.
It is abstract. Essentially you find a place with a shop selling the components and pay up. You get a batch of "components" and some "fine inks". They can be whatever the DM or player says they are. But Id say that they probably do not take up alot of space. A normal ink bottle weighs only an ounce. So you might say enough "stuff" to copy a single level 9 spell weighs a pound. Or some other method like 2oz per 50gp batch of components and inks.
Ah, so as a DM I just have to decide a certain store sells "components" and leave it at that.
I was confused because it looked like the whole "wave your hands, spend 50gp and poof" way was written on purpose since 5e is supposed to be rules light.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878146I was confused because it looked like the whole "wave your hands, spend 50gp and poof" way was written on purpose since 5e is supposed to be rules light.
Rules light doesn't mean your setting doesn't have to work illogically. It just means that there isn't detailed mechanics to handle certain things.
It is so important to you to get the letter of the rule right? I felt you "got it" a couple of posts back that is was more a setting detail rather than a hard and fast rule in the way that the to hit roll is a d20 roll high compared to the target's AC.
At this point, I have to ask how do you want spellbooks to work in your campaign? And that preference is practical in light how your campaign is managed? I seen referees go overly detailed on a pet peeve because it annoys them but runs just about everything else in a rules light fashion. I found that this inconsistency annoys most players as it clearly a result of DM bias.
On the other hand if it is about the same level of details you do for your other rulings then players just chalk it up as that the way the setting works.
If on the other hand the players are using the rulebook to bully you and usurp your authority then you need to explain that this is how the setting works. If they complain that not how 5e works, remind the point is to play your campaign which mostly but not always uses the 5e rules.
if it is the middle of a campaign and you already stuck with a ruling, then explain that the next time you run a 5e campaign it is going to work like X. Even if it means going more by the book rather than something unique to the setting. If you think your past ruling is just that bad, then take some time before the session and talk to the player about it. Likely there will be complaints however if they don't convince them then stick to your guns and make the change.
In this particular instance, changing how copying spells into the spellbooks works shouldn't be a big deal provided you make the announcement of the change PRIOR to the session starting. Do NOT do this in the middle of the session prior to the players wanting to copy spells into the spellbooks. Most players will rightly consider this an unfair ruling.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878146Ah, so as a DM I just have to decide a certain store sells "components" and leave it at that.
I was confused because it looked like the whole "wave your hands, spend 50gp and poof" way was written on purpose since 5e is supposed to be rules light.
Thats what rules light often is. Not everything is hammered down in minute detail. And the general assumtion is that everything is not allways availible everywhere. Though I think that is one thing they should have stated more clearly in the books.
Chainmail for example: Its not stated what gauge its made from, the dimensions of the rings, the style of the linking, etc.
Quote from: estar;878154Rules light doesn't mean your setting doesn't have to work illogically. It just means that there isn't detailed mechanics to handle certain things.
It is so important to you to get the letter of the rule right? I felt you "got it" a couple of posts back that is was more a setting detail rather than a hard and fast rule in the way that the to hit roll is a d20 roll high compared to the target's AC.
At this point, I have to ask how do you want spellbooks to work in your campaign?
It's more that I'm trying to figure out what setting the rules themselves provided in this case. Usually there's an implied setting or the rule says something about the setting itself.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878182It's more that I'm trying to figure out what setting the rules themselves provided in this case. Usually there's an implied setting or the rule says something about the setting itself.
It's 2 hours and 50gp (in material components and notation) per spell level.
Implied setting is the spell's noted components, cross referenced with the Equipment chapter, along with assumed notation methods. Check sundries, gear, trade goods, etc. for material components. Notation would logically include paper as well as ink, (these are setting dependent if magical writing uses paper and ink).
It's not just 50gp/lvl of ink; it's 50gp/lvl of material components and fine inks (and presumably paper). So if the material components are negligible (bat guano?, grasshopper legs?), the implied setting presumes the notation will take the better part of the cost. If the material component for one casting is more costly than the total for learning the spell, similarly again the implied setting presumes notation would take the better part of the cost.
Does that help?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878182It's more that I'm trying to figure out what setting the rules themselves provided in this case. Usually there's an implied setting or the rule says something about the setting itself.
Because of it origins in the wargaming community of the 1970s, the normal of OD&D is to kitbash whatever you need to run the scenario/campaign that you were interested. This idea of kitbashed fantasy continued with D&D up to 3.0. Of course each edition had a different focus but still targeted the original idea of kitbashing your fantasy campaign.
D&D 4.0 had a focus and definitive take on the fantasy genre. D&D 5e marks a return to the older idea kitbashing your fantasy campaign.
So if you are looking for a definitive default setting for D&D 5e, you are not going to find it.
Rather what you should do is look at the different stuff (items, monsters, spells, etc) that D&D 5e gives you and decide how your fantasy campaign will work.
So if your vision is that inks and quills are light and easy to carry and allows wizards to scribe spells in a cave then go with that. If you think they need to be a comfortable room, with a desk with an elaborate and delicate assortment of inks and components. Then go with that.
What I can do is give advice is how easy or hard it is to translate your vision into D&D 5e mechanics. How spells are scribed into spellbooks is a trivial amount of work on your part. You just need to decide how it works and stick with it. There is literally no right answer on this particular mechanic .
The only things that remained consistent is that there are spellbooks, that spell can be scribed into them for the wizard to memorize/prepare for later, and that it take time and money to do this.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878182It's more that I'm trying to figure out what setting the rules themselves provided in this case. Usually there's an implied setting or the rule says something about the setting itself.
Yes, there's an implied setting given equipment costs and such. I think the cost to copy spells exists merely so that wizards can't just make hundreds of spell books for free, and to provide specifics that would allow a wizard who captures enough wealth to make many copies if they want. So I wouldn't read too much about the setting into the relative costs of different equipment; in D&D it's as likely to be driven by game balance considerations as any deep thought about the implicit setting.
One person's RPG that doesn't overspecify things will be dismissed by another person as only a kit for building an RPG and not an RPG. That varying mileage thing.
Quote from: Omega;877793Replace one or two of the "jewelry found" entries in the treasure table with "wizard inks"
IE in 5e replace one of the 25 gp Art Objects entry with "1 jar Wizard Ink", a 250 entry with "2 jars Wizard Ink" and so on.
That's a good idea, though of course even better if you only do this in cases where you at least have an idea why there would be fine ink among the particular loot found.
In 5e you dont find much important on monsters unless its lair loot. So either this wizard has some inks on them. Or its stored wherever he was making a base.
Common sense too. An adventuring wizard might not be carrying all this stuff on their person if they were planning to head back to town or evil wizard lair. Ehereas a travelling wizard might have a batch "just in case". Though honestly the idea of dragging inks and testing materials around can get a little or alot silly.
Quote from: Omega;879028In 5e you dont find much important on monsters unless its lair loot. So either this wizard has some inks on them. Or its stored wherever he was making a base.
Common sense too. An adventuring wizard might not be carrying all this stuff on their person if they were planning to head back to town or evil wizard lair. Ehereas a travelling wizard might have a batch "just in case". Though honestly the idea of dragging inks and testing materials around can get a little or alot silly.
Only if you find the concept of bags of holding to be silly. ;)
Quote from: Old One Eye;879089Only if you find the concept of bags of holding to be silly. ;)
Someone has to have one first. It an Uncommon item so you probably wont see one till after level 5. If ever.
Quote from: Omega;879313Someone has to have one first. It an Uncommon item so you probably wont see one till after level 5. If ever.
Technically, 3rd level is when various sources suggest that you start disbursing some magic items. (And the 5e DMG has Bags of Holding as one of the 1-5 tier rewards.)
Quote from: Omega;879313Someone has to have one first. It an Uncommon item so you probably wont see one till after level 5. If ever.
The PCs are 17th level in my 5e campaign. It has been over a year of real time since they last saw 5th level.
From 5 to 17 in just a year? That's fast. We've played for a year and everyone is around level 5. Though we play like once a month, maybe twice a month.
Hoard of the Dragon Queen took a few months of running and saw the party of three to level 10. Once we get into Rise of Tiamat finally I suspect the group will finish around level 17-20. If there were more players theyd have both had an easier time and probably be lower level than they are due to EXP being spread out more.
Current group I am playing in I am level 10, Kefra is level 9 and Jan is level 5. (Her previous character died.) Over alot of weekly sessions we have yet to find a single Bag of Holding. Whereas another 5e player I know lucked out and got one around level 5 I think according to her accounts.
A 1% chance on table A of getting one and a 3% chance on table B. (1d4 or 1d6 checks on tables depending on your rolls.)
Kefra has suggested that we just sit down and make our own during an extended downtime. She may have a point there. Would have come in handy to stuff her remains in to lug back to town to have raised. :D
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;879464From 5 to 17 in just a year? That's fast. We've played for a year and everyone is around level 5. Though we play like once a month, maybe twice a month.
Somewhat over a year, however long since the day the PHB was released to go from 1-17. And I play long sessions. 10-12 hours is about average. In game time has been a little longer. Maybe three years or so has passed.
5e levels fast. We probably only spend about half the time actually adventuring. Half the time has been roleplaying in town, domain management, and whatnot.
Quote from: Omega;879313Someone has to have one first. It an Uncommon item so you probably wont see one till after level 5. If ever.
I sure don't think Bags of Holding are silly. I think they're one of the most useful magic items around for a party's practical needs. And thus, it is almost criminal if they are easily available at some magic shop or some other bullshit like that.
Quote from: RPGPundit;879925I sure don't think Bags of Holding are silly. I think they're one of the most useful magic items around for a party's practical needs. And thus, it is almost criminal if they are easily available at some magic shop or some other bullshit like that.
Exactly. 5e makes them fairly rare and discourages magic shops. Interestingly the higher CR lairs have diminishing chance for bags of holding to be found.
Quote from: Omega;879952Exactly. 5e makes them fairly rare and discourages magic shops.
That was one of the things I strongly advised when consulting; though certainly some of the designers were already advocating for that as well.