The rules for copying spells in 5e are weird. They're both abstract and specific.



It talks about needing 50gp per level to represent the inks you need. OK, so far so good, if you want to abstract it. But what if you're in a cave or somewhere? Then it just doesn't make sense. Are you supposed to get some inks beforehand? If so, then where does the 50 gold come into play. Or are you supposed to not worry about it at all, in which case it breaks immersion.

Also, can you copy spells from another wizard's spellbook? I thought you couldn't, because the spellbook doesn't have ACTUAL SPELLS but just the random gibberish and notes of the wizard who uses the book.

Furthermore, if copying a scroll consumes it, does copying from a spellbook (if possible) consume the spell in it?

Actually that does not sound very abstract?

You have to pay 50gp/level of the spell in experimenting and special inks.

Copying the spell into the book, or a backup does not remove it from the book. Unlike a scroll. You can not cast a spell from the book like a scroll either.

But where do you spend it. Do you just sit down and decide "OK I'm deducting 50 gp" and poof, like magic, you have some inks? Even if you're in a desert? Can you use these inks for other things? Or are they only limited to the scrolls?

See, stuff like that.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388It talks about needing 50gp per level to represent the inks you need. OK, so far so good, if you want to abstract it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388But what if you're in a cave or somewhere? Then it just doesn't make sense. Are you supposed to get some inks beforehand? If so, then where does the 50 gold come into play. Or are you supposed to not worry about it at all, in which case it breaks immersion.

There is no by the book answer to this. I recommend one of the following.

1) Don't worry about as the main limitations are supposed to be the time and cost of copying the spells. If they have both then why not let them do it. I recommend this option for a campaign where sessions are infrequent.

2) Have spellcasters add a box to their characters called magical components. It is a gold piece value. Assign some ratio of gp per pound to represent the weight. I recommend from 100 to 1,000 gp per lb depending on your conception of what magical components are. The spellcaster can only buy more components at a magic/potion/alchemist/sage shop. Otherwise they are stuck with what they got.

I recommend this for an on-going campaign. It eliminates the hassle of tracking bit and pieces of components and in my experience supports immersion in a way that #1 doesn't.

3) Have a price list of components with cost and lists.

Mostly players find this overly fiddly. I only require named components if they are are of a significant value. For example a 1,000 gp diamond named as needed for a spell.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388Also, can you copy spells from another wizard's spellbook? I thought you couldn't, because the spellbook doesn't have ACTUAL SPELLS but just the random gibberish and notes of the wizard who uses the book.

There are no explicit rules forbidding this. There is one rule from the ritual caster feat that explicitly allows this.

From the Ritual Caster Feat

QuoteIf you come across a spell in written form, such as a magical spell scroll or a wizard's spellbook, you might be able to add it to your ritual book. The spell must be on the spell list for the class you chose, the spell's level can be no higher than half your level (rounded up), and it must have the ritual tag.

What about a copy from one spell book to another?

Read the box titled on page 114 again. Note that it doesn't say that each spellbook is unique to each spellcaster what is says

QuoteYour spellbook is a unique compilation of spells, with its own decorative flourishes and margin notes. It might be a plain, functional leather volume that you received as a gift from your master, a finely bound gilt-edged tome you found in an ancient library, or even a loose collection of notes scrounged together after you lost your previous spellbook in a mishap.

That it is a unique OBJECT. I have a red leather bound book, you have a blue leather bound book that kind of thing. Also note this.

Quotea finely bound gilt-edged tome you found in an ancient library

and this from What is a Spell? on Page 201

QuoteUncounted thousands of spells have been created over the course o f the multiverse's history, and many of them are long forgotten. Some might yet lie recorded in crumbling spellbooks hidden in ancient ruins or trapped in the minds of dead gods. Or they might someday be reinvented by a character who has amassed enough power and wisdom to do so.

If you are going by the book, then I would rule that you can copy from spellbook another spellbook.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876388Furthermore, if copying a scroll consumes it, does copying from a spellbook (if possible) consume the spell in it?

The Spell Scroll rules in the DMG explicitly state that the spell scroll is consumed.

For spell books note replacing your book. I would rule that you can copy from spellbook to another spellbook without detroying the spells in the original.

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Final world. My view is that how your setting works is the primary determination of how you should rule on these things. I get why people want to go By The Book for their campaign but in end it comes down to your answer to the question "How does my setting work?" or in this case "How do spellbook and copying spells work in my setting?"

There are some rules for any edition of D&D that if you change it, the game become something else other than that edition. For example feats in 3e, or the proficiency bonus in 5e. How spellbooks is not one of those those type of rules. The only crucial rule of spellbooks to how D&D 5e works is that you need it to change your list of prepared spells if you are a wizard. And that you need your ritual book to cast a ritual spell if you are a ritual caster.

Beyond that go with what you think how your setting ought to work.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876417But where do you spend it. Do you just sit down and decide "OK I'm deducting 50 gp" and poof, like magic, you have some inks? Even if you're in a desert? Can you use these inks for other things? Or are they only limited to the scrolls?

See, stuff like that.

The rules assume you are not out in the field doing the research and copying because its time consuming and costly.

If you cannot get to a town and get some supplies then you can not copy the spell into your book.

Now if you expect to be out and away a long long time then you might want to purchase a supply of materials to the tune of 50gp per level of the spell as a precaution.

Same as copying a spell into your book and memorizing it does not magically hand you the components needed yo cast it if you didnt have them allready. No component (or focus) - no casting it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876417But where do you spend it. Do you just sit down and decide "OK I'm deducting 50 gp" and poof, like magic, you have some inks? Even if you're in a desert? Can you use these inks for other things? Or are they only limited to the scrolls?

You can easily limit this activity to places where the necessary materials would be available; say, in a town with merchants who can supply various spell components. Back when, we NEVER recovered spells except by going home to somewhere safe, and studying for several weeks. Characters just couldn't undertake spell research or spell book copying or enchanting magic items in the wilderness (or even recover many hit points from resting). I think the DMG has various options for making rests easier or harder.

If you do let players copy spells in the wilderness, you can require that they purchase supplies in advance; or you can abstract it a bit, and say that the character bought the inks (and components that get used up) the last time they had the opportunity even if it wasn't mentioned, or you can even invent some system by which some form of magic delivers these goods in return for the appropriate amount of coins. It also depends on how carefully you're enforcing the various material component rules for spell casting; it doesn't seem right to enforce the same thing carefully in one area but not in others.

There is some measure of game balance intended: a cost imposed on wizards in return for potentially having access to more spells than other arcane casters get. Some characters save up their money to get someone to cast the spell they need, or to buy good equipment or magic items; wizards also save up money to expand their list of spells when the opportunity arises. And there's also some vulnerability for the wizard, that they might lose their investment in their spellbook.

As to copying the notes and gibberish from some other wizard into your spell book, that's the deciphering part that takes several hours. I don't see anything that says this will not succeed if the time is taken; an enemy wizard could take various steps to protect their spellbook, but if those have been dealt with there does not appear to be any obstacle to acquiring the spells of suitable level, if you take the time and have the materials.

It sounds like your players did something you didn't like and you're looking for some rule to slap them down with. What did they do and why don't you like it?

If you don't want the characters to get spells from a captured spellbook every time they defeat a wizard, the simplest solution is to not let them find such a spellbook; a wizard who doesn't intend to prepare different spells can leave their spellbook somewhere safe.

Quote from: rawma;876530It sounds like your players did something you didn't like and you're looking for some rule to slap them down with. What did they do and why don't you like it?

Why do you always assume this? I just don't think the rule sounds very realistic, if per RAW you could go up into a mountain and throw 50 gp into the air and suddenly have your inks It's immersion breaking for me.

But the suggestions here so far are good. It just looks like by RAW you're still stuck.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876537Why do you always assume this? I just don't think the rule sounds very realistic, if per RAW you could go up into a mountain and throw 50 gp into the air and suddenly have your inks It's immersion breaking for me.

But the suggestions here so far are good. It just looks like by RAW you're still stuck.

Its more a problem you are reading RAW too litterally. The rule says that this process costs time, research and X gold worth of materials.

If you do not have the materials you can not copy the spell because a shop with those inks does not just poof into existence. The 50gp cost is useless if you have no access to a place you can buy the materials.

So your mage in a cave who finds Fireball on a scroll and has 150gp on hand. Can do nothing with the actual copying until they can get to a place where they can buy the needed materials.

Now if before setting out the wizard had the forethought to have purchased 150 worth of inks on the off chance they found a spell of 3rd level. Then they can sit down in their cave and have at it. Using up the 150 worth of wizard inks.

This is a case where rulings and not rules apply. The spirit of the rule is tacit: use common sense.

If every writer had to account for every particular wrinkle in the rules, we'd end up with another MERP.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;876537Why do you always assume this?

Sorry! I didn't mean to offend.

The topics are interesting enough, even in the abstract, so it's OK either way. But if there's some underlying issue from actual play then we can offer more specific advice, and it seemed to me that it's often the case with your posts that there is. I will sincerely endeavor to avoid that assumption in the future, as I like 5e and don't want to discourage discussion of it.

In this particular abstract instance, I think you'd have more grounds for complaint if the rules said that a spell could always be copied on any short or long rest with automatic deduction of some number of gold pieces from the character's wealth. Clearly (well, to me) this copying should happen at an appropriate time and place, with appropriate steps to obtain the supplies needed; I don't see it as saying the inks automatically appear when you decide to copy a spell. Some groups don't track how many arrows are lost, most I've seen don't worry about material components except for ones with a cost that are consumed, a few barely track gold expenditures, and so on. If something's immersion breaking for you, then don't do it. Like the old joke:
   Patient: It hurts when I do this!
Doctor: So don't do that!

Or, more briefly and less abrasively, what Omega and ZWEIHÄNDER said.

Or on the other hand a person might want to know what RAW actually is so he can be better informed when he makes a ruling.

I know 5e pretty well as a consequence of wanting learn it to publish for it eventually and practiced by answering questions over on RPG Stack Exchange. However in my campaign if the rules come into conflict with the reality of my setting, I am all about going "the rules can go to hell" and make a ruling that fits the situation. However because I learned 5e, most of the time I can make it consistent with how the system is designed.

Textual literalism is bad theology.  It also is bad gaming.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;876597Textual literalism is bad theology.  It also is bad gaming.

Well if we are going for the pithy one liner approach.

The problem is the application of the knowledge not the knowledge itself.

I don't see the issue.

Learning in a cave isn't going to work, it's like trying to build a chair out of 2x4s, but with no tools.  You have to be in a spot where you can research in private, and yet, have access to all the materials necessary.

On an adventure doesn't allow you to do that.

Ah here's something a friend brought up.

If you have a party of multiple wizards, can the wizards all pass their spellbooks around and copy their spells off each other?

Also if it's 50 gp per level, does that mean cantrips are free?