Quote from: Sacrosanct;797852So you went from wanting to nerf the eldritch blast for being too good over a bow, and now wanting to nerf a bow because it's too good lol?

How about just play the game as it's designed first and save yourself a lot of potential worrying.

well I didn't nerf EB I improved the archer's damage actually to make the two more equitable so ... meh. I do think that EB getting additional strikes at higher level is problematic.

That would becuase I want to put things in a setting that remains coherent and makes sense.

I care more about the "setting/roleplay/characters" than I do about the "game I guess.

I don't want anything too be good or bad just to make logical sense.
So do I think that a fighter can fire 8 arrows in 6 seconds .... hmmm struggling.

When I create a game it creates a space in my imagination I understand how that space works. I get its physics and its innate logic. A game that doesn't work in that space becomes problematic.
I don't worry that the fighter is too powerful I worry that his actions are impossible and I don't want the fighter doing impossible things.

I want some balance so unlimited cantrip blasts worry me but most of all I want a world that works as a world.
My concerns about AC, HP, combat actions falling etc are all linked. I don't want high level fighters to get a base AC increase to make them toughter or more balanced or so I can play a High Level Fighter who is impossible to hit. I want high level fighters to get an AC increase because all that experience should make you harder to hit.

So I worry about things like missile attack getting sneak attack advantage not because its tough but because the idea of the sneak attack is that you are able to get in close to someone without them noticing you and get into their armour, hit an artery etc . If you are bowing someone that is a different skill maybe sniper or something.

So doubling an "attack action" that itself contains 4 attacks to me is akin to the CCG card combo that lets you put a bird ally on a motorbike to get extra intercept, because allies can use equipment uless it says otherwise.

An action surge to take an additional action is fine but if that action itself contains 3 additional actions .. meh leaves me cold and breaks immersion.

Quote from: snooggums;797853At level 20, a fighter gets to do a lot of damage in a round once per short rest, while a caster is making WISHES that can alter time and space. I'd recommend that you don't start changing things you don't understand because it sounds scary without context.

hehehe I don't care that a wizard can cast WISH so a figher should get a boost so his bow is as powerful as a wish....

A high level wizard can cast a WISH its awesome world changeing that is what wizards do.

A fighter even if he is 20th level is still doing a mundane thing. Give him a Bow of speed, and he can shoot a dozen arrows a round,  it conforms to the logic of the setting.

What I don't want to see is the mundane being made supernatural without actually refering to it as a supernatural thing.

And don't patronise. I totally get how I want my world to work. I totally understand what I want the outcomes of actions to be at higher levels so if I want to change it I probably will or will you be coming round my house to take my books away....

Quote from: jibbajibba;797816Hmm... I think your casters might get a bit peeved if you told them they were unable to cast sitting down or whatever.

I will admit that this is an approach I could use though.

I have been seeing the cantrips as small magics where you mutter "prestigionom" and point your finger and zap, but as Krueger points out that is my UA bias coming out becuase that was what cantrips were like when they first showed up.

Cantrips are a big deal in 5e because at 20th level as a wizard you get 27 prepared spells with 7 at-will effects unless you're a High Elf or Tiefling and/or take Spell Sniper with 22 total slots a day with the chance to recharge 10 spell levels NOT spell slots under 6th level. It's restricted big time. As a wizard you wind up and watch and wait for the kill shot while letting the fighter and rogue do their their thing or use field tilting concentration spells(many being buff spells better used on frontline types then yourself) with everybody all hands on deck defending the wizard no pass go.

I've learned this from playing the game and realizing how actual party composition alters it and what serves that individual party the best.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797816Hmm... I think your casters might get a bit peeved if you told them they were unable to cast sitting down or whatever.

I will admit that this is an approach I could use though.

I have been seeing the cantrips as small magics where you mutter "prestigionom" and point your finger and zap, but as Krueger points out that is my UA bias coming out becuase that was what cantrips were like when they first showed up.

Yeah, whereas coming from 4e I see them as the At Will attack powers, supposed to be more or less balanced against sword & bow attacks, and similarly easy/hard to use.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797874hehehe I don't care that a wizard can cast WISH so a figher should get a boost so his bow is as powerful as a wish....

A high level wizard can cast a WISH its awesome world changeing that is what wizards do.

A fighter even if he is 20th level is still doing a mundane thing. Give him a Bow of speed, and he can shoot a dozen arrows a round,  it conforms to the logic of the setting.

What I don't want to see is the mundane being made supernatural without actually refering to it as a supernatural thing.

And don't patronise. I totally get how I want my world to work. I totally understand what I want the outcomes of actions to be at higher levels so if I want to change it I probably will or will you be coming round my house to take my books away....

Hm, it sounds as if 3e/Pathfinder would be the system for you.

Jibba after reading your responses in this thread it is obvious you have not ONE clue about how the rules work in 5e or even give a damn about it. With that I'm out and have fun with your heartbreaker. Other people do the same just ask Lord Vreeg just don't expect Dnd (any edition) to be the reality simulation game type you obviously prefer because it will never do that and never will be able to do so no matter what crazy houserule you add. The base system isn't built for it.

Double double.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797816Hmm... I think your casters might get a bit peeved if you told them they were unable to cast sitting down or whatever.

I will admit that this is an approach I could use though.

I have been seeing the cantrips as small magics where you mutter "prestigionom" and point your finger and zap, but as Krueger points out that is my UA bias coming out becuase that was what cantrips were like when they first showed up.

Cantrips are a big deal in 5e because at 20th level as a wizard you get 27 prepared spells with 7 at-will effects unless you're a High Elf or Tiefling and/or take Spell Sniper with 22 total slots a day with the chance to recharge 10 spell levels NOT spell slots under 6th level. It's restricted big time. As a wizard you wind up and watch a wait for the kill shot while letting the fighter and rogue do their thing.

Quote from: Marleycat;797890Jibba after reading your responses in this thread it is obvious you have not ONE clue about how the rules work in 5e or even give a damn about it.With that I'm out and have fun with your heartbreaker. Other people do the same just ask Lord Vreeg just don't expect Dnd (any edition) to be the reality simulation game type you obviously prefer because it will never do that and never will be able to do so no matter what crazy houserule you add. The base system isn't built for it.

well.. I disagree.
I think there is penty of scope in 5e. I like backgrounds, I like a number of the mechanical features, particularly Advantage/disadvantage. I have always like the timbre / cadence of D&D and I think there is a lof of good stuff here.

I will pick the rules up if I sit down and read through sections fully, which i admit to seldom doing. Weirldy I am actually pretty good at understanding game rules if I actually read them properly:)  Notw that doesn't mean I like all game rules.  In fact I don't think I have ever played any game since snakes and ladders by RAW.

5e was aimed , apparently at people like me, so if you don't mind, and it causes you no offence I will continue to play it and hack it into a shape I like

The base game by the way can do exactly what I like, I know this to be the case because the base game is D&D 6 stats, d20, goblins, fireballs... and I have been playing the base game for 35 years

the 5e defenders seem to be up in arms but my request was only how does the game balance bow combat with the power and flexibility of cantrip spell blasts. The rule was there I just missed it (in my defense its not a terribly clearly presented rule, IMHO).
I suspect that at the highest levels 5e will be too much "KABANG", "WOW", "FUN" for me as written but I will play through and tweak as I go. I can always go back to 2e if it gets too much or as you point out play my heartbreaker....

Quote from: Marleycat;797892Cantrips are a big deal in 5e because at 20th level as a wizard you get 27 prepared spells with 7 at-will effects unless you're a High Elf or Tiefling and/or take Spell Sniper with 22 total slots a day with the chance to recharge 10 spell levels NOT spell slots under 6th level. It's restricted big time. As a wizard you wind up and watch a wait for the kill shot while letting the fighter and rogue do their thing.

27 spells is not "restricted big time".
Any 20th level wizard who isn't able to bend the world to their will simply by threatening to cast a spell needs to take a long look at themselves in a mirror....

Quote from: jibbajibba;79789527 spells is not "restricted big time".
Any 20th level wizard who isn't able to bend the world to their will simply by threatening to cast a spell needs to take a long look at themselves in a mirror....

In Mage? Sure. In 5e? Not happening sorry. High level field tilting spells are extremely strictured in multiple ways. It's just a base assumption of the game itself and what the majority of players and DM's prefer for current Dnd.

I

Quote from: jibbajibba;797894well.. I disagree.
I think there is penty of scope in 5e. I like backgrounds, I like a number of the mechanical features, particularly Advantage/disadvantage. I have always like the timbre / cadence of D&D and I think there is a lof of good stuff here.

I will pick the rules up if I sit down and read through sections fully, which i admit to seldom doing. Weirldy I am actually pretty good at understanding game rules if I actually read them properly:)  Notw that doesn't mean I like all game rules.  In fact I don't think I have ever played any game since snakes and ladders by RAW.

5e was aimed , apparently at people like me, so if you don't mind, and it causes you no offence I will continue to play it and hack it into a shape I like

The base game by the way can do exactly what I like, I know this to be the case because the base game is D&D 6 stats, d20, goblins, fireballs... and I have been playing the base game for 35 years

the 5e defenders seem to be up in arms but my request was only how does the game balance bow combat with the power and flexibility of cantrip spell blasts. The rule was there I just missed it (in my defense its not a terribly clearly presented rule, IMHO).
I suspect that at the highest levels 5e will be too much "KABANG", "WOW", "FUN" for me as written but I will play through and tweak as I go. I can always go back to 2e if it gets too much or as you point out play my heartbreaker....

I can give a fuck what you do I just suggest you keep to a system without the conceits you seem to willfully misunderstand.. There are good and solid reasons why at-will spells are a thing in 5e. Change it as you will but do everyone a favor and ACTUALLY understand the rules ok? Combat cantrips are really only used regularly at low levels or when the wizard/bard/sorcerer is borked and has no decent options (which is rare given their class/archetype options).

Why for example would ANY 18th level wizard use a combat cantrip given they can cast Magic Missile or Misty Step at-will or use a Summoned Creature with extra hitpoints that the wizard in question completely ignores concentration on while teleporting 30 feet anywhere or teleporting any willing target in a switch pretty much anytime they feel? But there are times when a small attack is appropriate or the ONLY option they may have because of a myriad of circumstances not the least being they're out of spell slots. Paradigm shift it isn't 0-2e it's a different game with different baseline assumptions and conceits.

Quote from: Marleycat;797899I
I can give a fuck what you do I just suggest you keep to a system without the conceits you seem to willfully misunderstand.. There are good and solid reasons why at-will spells are a thing in 5e. Change it as you will but do everyone a favor and ACTUALLY understand the rules ok? Combat cantrips are really only used regularly at low levels or when the wizard/bard/sorcerer is borked and has no decent options (which is rare given their class/archetype options).

Why for example would ANY 18th level wizard use a combat cantrip given they can cast Magic Missile or Misty Step at-will or use a Summoned Creature with extra hitpoints that the wizard in question completely ignores concentration on while teleporting 30 feet anywhere or teleporting any willing target in a switch pretty much anytime they feel?

I thought combat cantrips were a big deal in 5e because a Wizard was so "restricted big time" and would "wind up and watch a wait for the kill shot while letting the fighter and rogue do their thing" but apparently that isn't the case and "Combat cantrips are really only used regularly at low levels" because the caster  "can cast Magic Missile or Misty Step at-will or use a Summoned Creature with extra hitpoints that the wizard in question completely ignores concentration on while teleporting 30 feet anywhere or teleporting any willing target in a switch pretty much anytime they feel" ...

So either at-will combat cantrips are critical to allow high level casters to participate in massive scale battles at high level or they are totally trivial at high levels and no one will ever use them. Which is it? Currently you seem to be saying its both.

Now my thoughts on at will cantrips was that they were going to be a nice themeic touch that replaced the Wizard chucking a dagger occassionally at levels 1-5. But when they are dealling 1d8 /1d10 + bonus and at high levels generate multiple blasts they seems to have exceded that "remit". Maybe just me.

Now I actually don't imagine High Level D&D games as 5 PCs take on Zeus in a slugathon, I have played "shit loads" of high level D&D and its not mid-level D&D with bigger monsters, so make sure I can strike 16 times a round for 20d10 per blow or I can't compete with Meteor Swarm. I think that would be a game of "always fighting orcs". YEMV.

Marley, I often like your input, but you seem bizarrely hostile for no reason toward Jibba. Please stop?


Jibba: my recommendation, with any system, is hold off on house rules until you've played a game for a year. Though removing classes/backgrounds or other options for flavor is more doable.

We just don't grok the system effects well enough, and you'll end up in an endless loop of correction/over correction.

Believe me, I've been there.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797903So either at-will combat cantrips are critical to allow high level casters to participate in massive scale battles at high level or they are totally trivial at high levels and no one will ever use them. Which is it? Currently you seem to be saying its both.

This is why I'm uninterested in 5e.