Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;797809JibbaJibba

There are no components, its at at will effect that counts as an action
I guess you could restrictbit to needing two hands free and a set amount of space to cast effectively ascribing somantic components and requiring a lot of space


Well Somatic and Verbal.

I still say that verbal is not quiet or something that can be hidden and Somatic requires some stable platform to use. but that is me. Every bit as reasonable as the restrictions you set on long bow use, in my mind.

But to be honest I would ignore most that stuff becuase 5th ed to me is suppose to be simple and fun not realistic. It can be run that way perfectly well as long as you apply realism across the board equally. Sometimes that is hard to do with magically stuff as it is not real but I think you can balance it out as I have said.

Just my thoughts.

Hmm... I think your casters might get a bit peeved if you told them they were unable to cast sitting down or whatever.

I will admit that this is an approach I could use though.

I have been seeing the cantrips as small magics where you mutter "prestigionom" and point your finger and zap, but as Krueger points out that is my UA bias coming out becuase that was what cantrips were like when they first showed up.

Quote from: Omega;797771I play a Warlock so lets look at this and see. Works more or less the same for an Evocer wizard.

Eldrich Blast is range 120 ft. verbal and somatic.
Needs a to-hit roll. Prof and CHA bonus to hit.
Does 1d10 force damage. No bonus unless you pick up an evocation to add the CHA bonus. And another to extend the range to 300 ft.
2 beams at 5th level, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. and each needs a seperate attack roll.

Fighter with bow and Archery style.
1d8 damage, +X to hit from proficiency, +X to hit and damage from DEX mod, +2 to hit and damage from Archery. Weapon Master Precision Attack maneuver can add a spent maneuver die as damage. This is limited.
Gets 2 attacks at level 2, and if I am reading this right, 4 attacks at level 5. (or 3 at level 5 if I am reading it wrong, which I am pretty sure I am...) via Action surge which is limited in uses. And another attack at 11. bringing them up to 3 attacks, 4 with action surge, (6 if I am reading that wrong...)

Note that you can recover half your spent ammo after each battle.

Sharpshooter feat allows you to do +10 damage if you take a -5 to hit.

Ranger gets Archery style as per fighter, and DEX mod. Also extra attack at level 5. And at 7th level taking the Hunter path can do Volley which hits ALL targets in sight as long as you have enough ammo to do so.
Ranger has though spells that play off archery. Hunters Mark, Hail of Thorns, Lightning Arrow, Summon Volley. These are limited of course.

So at 11 the Archer fighter is doing up to 1d8+5(20 DEX) +2 (archery) damage up to three times a round. With sharpshooter on all the time that is another +10. So a potential +17 damage. 8-15 or 18-25 damage.

The warlock at the same level is 1d10 +5(20 CHA and evocation) 6-15.

The caster, Warlock or Evocer does not have the ammo problems of the Archer. But, in a magic dead or silenced area, the caster looses that power. As for cover and shooting through small openings. Archers can do the same thing. Castles were built with arrow slits for such occasions.

So at level 11 they are nearly equal. But if the archer goes for sharpshooter then the archer outstrips the caster. As long as ammo lasts. And with a finess melee weapon the archer is still formidible.

Its the Ranger that feels a little off here. Volley is nice. But situational. The spells are nice. But are limited. For a class that has been traditionally seen as very archery adept - they arent outputting at the same level.

By the way. Thanks for posing this question as it certainly increased my appreciation of the fighter class. I have passed this along to Jannet who is our groups archery focused player.

Archery is a +2 to hit mno damage bonus.

Quote from: CRKrueger;797735You just have to deal with the altered paradigm, Jibba.  Everyone is meant to do roughly X output in combat, every round, without expenditure of resources (except archers).  Fighters swing, casters cantrip, thieves sneak attack, rangers slayer/horde breaker and we're all combat equals when it comes to base damage.  You start expending resources like Rage, Spells, Actions Surge, Superiority Dice and the wtfpwnage comes out.  The Fighter's "what can I do best?" is not damage it's live longer.  It's not as bad as 4e but the fingerprints are there - Fighter is more of a Tank/Controller then a Striker.

The Warlock is one of the more specialized classes though and meant to be more of a base magic power class centered on invocations and pacts, more of a supernatural creature then a caster, they are much less flexible as a result even if their cantrips are superior.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

the odds thing though was that it was players that called this out. These are guys that have only played RPGs with me to any degree. They have played my heartbreaker in a fantasy setting, the game base rules in a sci fi setting, then Fables with an Amber diceless Engine, Mutants and masterminds 2e and now 5e.
So most of their RPG knowledge comes from Computer games.
They thought it was odd that the casters could constantly chuck out magical bolts with no cost.

Looking at a "fantasy Economy" you can see elite mercenary units switching archers for casters (it even rhymes ) just cos Arrows cost money.

Hmm... I think your casters might get a bit peeved if you told them they were unable to cast sitting down or whatever.

I will admit that this is an approach I could use though.

I have been seeing the cantrips as small magics where you mutter "prestigionom" and point your finger and zap, but as Krueger points out that is my UA bias coming out becuase that was what cantrips were like when they first showed up.


They would but  no more peeved than the archer If I said the same thing about the Long Bow.  Like I said hard to inject realism into magic when you have no basis. It is more a matter of injecting Balance than realism.

I've played for 33+ years. so played the olde stuff, different stuff and new stuff. I adjust the system a lot, I am a certified rules tweeker, but  mostly for balance and sometimes for realism. You just have to find your happy groove.

I know its hard to shake Cantrips old school were they were nothing to 5th ed where they are something else entirely.

As for casters as ranged attackers I think that falls to magic still being special just not among the players.  Kind of like being millionaires, its a different world for the rich folk and a different world for the adventurers.


Characters are professional athletes compared to the rest of the world. They might have come up from nobodies but eventually they stand way the hell out. That's how I usually run it.

Just my thoughts.

Quote from: Omega;797771Fighter with bow and Archery style.
1d8 damage, +X to hit from proficiency, +X to hit and damage from DEX mod, +2 to hit and damage from Archery. Weapon Master Precision Attack maneuver can add a spent maneuver die as damage. This is limited.
Gets 2 attacks at level 2, and if I am reading this right, 4 attacks at level 5. (or 3 at level 5 if I am reading it wrong, which I am pretty sure I am...) via Action surge which is limited in uses. And another attack at 11. bringing them up to 3 attacks, 4 with action surge, (6 if I am reading that wrong...)
.

This is not correct.  As an action, the fighter can take 1-4 attacks a turn (depending on level).  Action surge lets you take another attack action, so a level 20 fighter would 8 attacks during his or her turn.  Also, archery does not grant additional damage.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797819Looking at a "fantasy Economy" you can see elite mercenary units switching archers for casters (it even rhymes ) just cos Arrows cost money.

It all boils down to how common class levels are in the campaign setting.

As long as not anyone can attain a class level, it may be more feasible to have hundreds of commoners (or NPC soldiers) with bows and slings, rather than some dozen blasters.

Also, especially becoming a warlock comes with a price tag beyond the stats. Unless it is an evil theocracy (or a nation worshipping feys over everything else), forcing an entire army to sell their souls to inhuman entities is not really feasible.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797825This is not correct.  As an action, the fighter can take 1-4 attacks a turn (depending on level).  Action surge lets you take another attack action, so a level 20 fighter would 8 attacks during his or her turn.  Also, archery does not grant additional damage.

Thats why said, "if I am reading this wrong." And the example stopped at 11 so I didnt go past 11 for that. So the fighter does 2 less damage than figured. Still doling out the hurting well and with the aformentioned sharpshooter it still jumps the damage signifgantly.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797825This is not correct.  As an action, the fighter can take 1-4 attacks a turn (depending on level).  Action surge lets you take another attack action, so a level 20 fighter would 8 attacks during his or her turn.  Also, archery does not grant additional damage.

Can you explain the 8 attacks?

I can see 4 attacks base + 1 extra from action surge or can you action surge every action theat seems .... unlikely.

Quote from: Skyrock;797827It all boils down to how common class levels are in the campaign setting.

As long as not anyone can attain a class level, it may be more feasible to have hundreds of commoners (or NPC soldiers) with bows and slings, rather than some dozen blasters.

Considering Joe the fighter can, upon reaching level 2 just say " I'm gonna take a level of wizard"  and POOF he gets a spellbook and knows the secret incantations to cast 3 cantrips I don't think the bar is very high.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797817Archery is a +2 to hit mno damage bonus.

That still puts the Archer type at 6-13/16-23 vs the warlocks 6-15.

A +2 bow would compensate. A level 11 group might have acquired one by then. Though with 5e's reduction in magic items. Possibly not.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797837Can you explain the 8 attacks?

I can see 4 attacks base + 1 extra from action surge or can you action surge every action theat seems .... unlikely.

Action surge allows you to take another action. A fighter gets a specific number of attacks on his/her turn when the attack action is chosen.

At 20th level, this means means 4 attacks per attack action.

Thus with action surge, you get a whole 2nd attack action, which equals 4 attacks at level 20.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;797843Action surge allows you to take another action. A fighter gets a specific number of attacks on his/her turn when the attack action is chosen.

At 20th level, this means means 4 attacks per attack action.

Thus with action surge, you get a whole 2nd attack action, which equals 4 attacks at level 20.

Yeah that was what I was afraid of.... shooting 8 arrows in 6 seconds. Forget that elf in Hawk the slayer....

that might be a rule I nerf.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797850Yeah that was what I was afraid of.... shooting 8 arrows in 6 seconds. Forget that elf in Hawk the slayer....

that might be a rule I nerf.

So you went from wanting to nerf the eldritch blast for being too good over a bow, and now wanting to nerf a bow because it's too good lol?

How about just play the game as it's designed first and save yourself a lot of potential worrying.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797850Yeah that was what I was afraid of.... shooting 8 arrows in 6 seconds. Forget that elf in Hawk the slayer....

that might be a rule I nerf.

At level 20, a fighter gets to do a lot of damage in a round once per short rest, while a caster is making WISHES that can alter time and space. I'd recommend that you don't start changing things you don't understand because it sounds scary without context.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797850Yeah that was what I was afraid of.... shooting 8 arrows in 6 seconds. Forget that elf in Hawk the slayer....

that might be a rule I nerf.

At level 11 its max 6 a round and only one time a rest. Theres videos up of people firing an arrow a second so that is within modern grasp for a speed.

Another person who has  trained really hard with bows got off 10 shots in 5 seconds stationary and 8 while walking sideways/strafing. He was also shown firing 3 arrows in about 1.5 seconds and still able to hit a target some 200ft away. I am pretty sure it was not a long bow. But it was still within the limits of D&D speeds somewhat.