Quote from: jibbajibba;797562There are loads of practical advantages to being able to shoot missiles from your fingertips with no need to hold a weapon and carry ammo,. I can shoot from the back of a horse, hanging from a rope, holding a mcGuffin, climbing a cliff, holding a sheild, a sword, a torch etc etc

My approach in 4e has always been to rule that making a spell ranged attack is as difficult as making a missile ranged attack with a bow or similar - they both take similar levels of concentration and movement. This would be a good approach in 5e too by the sound of it.

Quote from: S'mon;797685My approach in 4e has always been to rule that making a spell ranged attack is as difficult as making a missile ranged attack with a bow or similar - they both take similar levels of concentration and movement. This would be a good approach in 5e too by the sound of it.

Except for the endless ammo, the rules already treat all ranged attacks the same.

A cantrip user is at disadvantage trying to shoot if an enemy is adjacent, just like any other missile weapon.

A guy with a thrown javelin or knife can throw it while holding onto a rope or a maguffin.

The endless ammo IS a huge advantage in a gritty survivalist style game where ammo and other supplies are hard to come by.

Quote from: snooggums;797673You keep saying that it came from ACTUAL PLAY but are complaining about the rules you didn't follow correctly as problems with the rules. Playing it differently than the rules doesn't make the rules wrong.

Absolutely.
And the mistake I made was genuine and the fix I employed to fix a perceived gap was very similar to the genuine rule.

I still think the fact that blast escalates as much as it does is surprising.

Quote from: Opaopajr;797664Ahh, so you missed the extra weapon damage. That explains the players' lackluster feeling.



Unless Eldritch Blast has some sort of special rules that obviates typical line of sight rules, you can't really do this while excluding bows. The best you can do, for both EB and arrows, is 3/4 cover shots (which grants +5 AC, both ways). However, since a Rogue can usually get Sneak Attack from Ranged Weapons, and by 2nd lvl has Cunning Action to Dash/Disengage/Hide to go be horrifying again next round, EB is quite small in the pants here as well.


(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 80.)

I strongly suggest a slow and steady read through of the Basic rules for everybody. And then I strongly suggest a slow and steady RAW play-through for everybody. It's really the fastest way to stay on top of the rules, get a real sense of their feel, and then know what to expect when you attempt to tweak it.

I disagree about line of sight there a mirror gives you line of sight. In that  situation. The nearest equivalent to a cantrip blast attack is going to be a handgun for purposes of how, what and when.

A long bow requires, 8 feet of head space, somewhere to stand a host of stuff. I sure you have tried to have a go with one.
A short bow will need less room of course.
In the game I am running the party are about to enter a goblin layer in an old temple, goblins are 4 feet tall they dig 5 foot tall tunnels the goblin warrens will thus render the archer's long bow unusable. Now this isn't me fucking the player over this is goblins digging a goblin scale lair.

There are going to be dozens of situations in actual play (I have seen a bunch already) where being able to point your finger through a small gap and zap a thing with damage will be great. And I have no issue with that as a spell its the ubiquitous nature that worries me.

Re your multi-classed Rogue. I agree that multi-classing to get a stronger "build" is going to be tougher. I am hoping to avoid that as that is all I disliked about 3e.


For now I am going to continue to play adjusting the ranged damage. And see what happens as we move forward the players will reach Level 3 next session and we will see if the sense amongst the party evens out.

Our rogue has yet to get the tactics down once he does I have no doubt that the ranged sneak attacks are going to be very effective. Then maybe the archer will notice that he is less effective that the rogue at ranged combat

And thanks to the guys that pointed out I had missed that rule I just didn't scan "hits with a weapon" to include missile.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797693There are going to be dozens of situations in actual play (I have seen a bunch already) where being able to point your finger through a small gap and zap a thing with damage will be great.

Is that how the blast works?

I think a little gesturing e.g. a fist punch kind of motion would seem more stylish to me. It would also be slightly more restrictive. Also if you are pointing your finger through a small gap you would also need to have your eye in the small gap so you could see. A small gap gives you very good cover, but it is worth noting that if the cover fails to protect that is potentially a lot of damage (goblin arrow to the eye) when a hit scores.

I think part of the issue is you are assigning real world issues to the bow when there are no real world issues to Eldritch blast, because its not real. So to fix that assign some real world issues to it to balance it out.

Why is it point and shoot out a finger, There may be a ton of other physical requirements to make it work. I don't know what components are required since my book is at home but surely it is not that simple.

Just my thoughts.

You just have to deal with the altered paradigm, Jibba.  Everyone is meant to do roughly X output in combat, every round, without expenditure of resources (except archers).  Fighters swing, casters cantrip, thieves sneak attack, rangers slayer/horde breaker and we're all combat equals when it comes to base damage.  You start expending resources like Rage, Spells, Actions Surge, Superiority Dice and the wtfpwnage comes out.  The Fighter's "what can I do best?" is not damage it's live longer.  It's not as bad as 4e but the fingerprints are there - Fighter is more of a Tank/Controller then a Striker.

The Warlock is one of the more specialized classes though and meant to be more of a base magic power class centered on invocations and pacts, more of a supernatural creature then a caster, they are much less flexible as a result even if their cantrips are superior.

Quote from: CRKrueger;797735You just have to deal with the altered paradigm, Jibba.  Everyone is meant to do roughly X output in combat, every round, without expenditure of resources (except archers).  Fighters swing, casters cantrip, thieves sneak attack, rangers slayer/horde breaker and we're all combat equals when it comes to base damage.  You start expending resources like Rage, Spells, Actions Surge, Superiority Dice and the wtfpwnage comes out.  The Fighter's "what can I do best?" is not damage it's live longer.  It's not as bad as 4e but the fingerprints are there - Fighter is more of a Tank/Controller then a Striker.

The Warlock is one of the more specialized classes though and meant to be more of a base magic power class centered on invocations and pacts, more of a supernatural creature then a caster, they are much less flexible as a result even if their cantrips are superior.

Um...the archer we're talking about is a fighter.  Perhaps you should take your 3/4e argument back to those editions where it belongs.  Fighters in 5e are the most consistent damaging martial class in the game.  Even the most basic fighter, without worrying about any temp resources/powers/whatever, will have up to 4 attacks each round, scoring a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.  No other class remotely comes close to that level of consistent damage

The fact that the fighter is still #1 in terms of at-will damage is not the paradigm shift.  

The paradigm shift is that the other classes are much closer to the fighter in terms of at-will damage then editions Jibster is more familiar with, like AD&D2.  

The Thief's damage, while still situational, is much more easy to obtain.  
The Ranger's damage is not confined to humanoids.  
Casters - that's the biggest jump in sustained at-Will output of course.

So, overall, the rest of the party is more capable at sustained damage output - their capability to do so is expected - paradigm shift carried over from 4e and to a lesser degree, 3e.

It's not just the fighter, the niches overall are less defined (and this is a 5e paradigm shift) for example, a Fighter can take backgrounds that give him proficiency with thieves' tools or musical instruments.  Due to the flattened math, proficiency without expertise can still be effective with decent stats.  Do I want the halfling thief to pick the lock?  Preferably, but the half-orc fighter might not be too bad at it, and the wizard might be able to masquerade as a minstrel to eavesdrop on an important dinner.

I play a Warlock so lets look at this and see. Works more or less the same for an Evocer wizard.

Eldrich Blast is range 120 ft. verbal and somatic.
Needs a to-hit roll. Prof and CHA bonus to hit.
Does 1d10 force damage. No bonus unless you pick up an evocation to add the CHA bonus. And another to extend the range to 300 ft.
2 beams at 5th level, 3 at 11th, 4 at 17th. and each needs a seperate attack roll.

Fighter with bow and Archery style.
1d8 damage, +X to hit from proficiency, +X to hit and damage from DEX mod, +2 to hit and damage from Archery. Weapon Master Precision Attack maneuver can add a spent maneuver die as damage. This is limited.
Gets 2 attacks at level 2, and if I am reading this right, 4 attacks at level 5. (or 3 at level 5 if I am reading it wrong, which I am pretty sure I am...) via Action surge which is limited in uses. And another attack at 11. bringing them up to 3 attacks, 4 with action surge, (6 if I am reading that wrong...)

Note that you can recover half your spent ammo after each battle.

Sharpshooter feat allows you to do +10 damage if you take a -5 to hit.

Ranger gets Archery style as per fighter, and DEX mod. Also extra attack at level 5. And at 7th level taking the Hunter path can do Volley which hits ALL targets in sight as long as you have enough ammo to do so.
Ranger has though spells that play off archery. Hunters Mark, Hail of Thorns, Lightning Arrow, Summon Volley. These are limited of course.

So at 11 the Archer fighter is doing up to 1d8+5(20 DEX) +2 (archery) damage up to three times a round. With sharpshooter on all the time that is another +10. So a potential +17 damage. 8-15 or 18-25 damage.

The warlock at the same level is 1d10 +5(20 CHA and evocation) 6-15.

The caster, Warlock or Evocer does not have the ammo problems of the Archer. But, in a magic dead or silenced area, the caster looses that power. As for cover and shooting through small openings. Archers can do the same thing. Castles were built with arrow slits for such occasions.

So at level 11 they are nearly equal. But if the archer goes for sharpshooter then the archer outstrips the caster. As long as ammo lasts. And with a finess melee weapon the archer is still formidible.

Its the Ranger that feels a little off here. Volley is nice. But situational. The spells are nice. But are limited. For a class that has been traditionally seen as very archery adept - they arent outputting at the same level.

By the way. Thanks for posing this question as it certainly increased my appreciation of the fighter class. I have passed this along to Jannet who is our groups archery focused player.

It is an altered paradigm, I agree.

But it is one where the previous WotC mechanics have been bent to give nod to previous diversity & expected competence.

Yes, anyone can buy thieves' tools or musical instruments, but only those trained in it can truly benefit (add PB, allow Proficiency-only uses) — and both still pale to a class with expertise in it. That's akin to 2e and WP/NWPs, or old weapon & armor restrictions and Thief Skills (treated as safety net %, not sole permission %). There were things everyone could *try*, but a few were blessedly good at. Interestingly enough, the old WotC modifier bloat that pissed everyone off was lopped at the knees (stilts included) by the "nothing fucking stacks, ever!, till we say so! motherfuckers!"

As for damage output, they are definitely on the Anti-Whiff bandwagon. HP bloat is where the game is now because rolling and failing to hit anything has been deemed unexciting. OSR is ok with a high % of attacks missing. WotC has fine-tuned things to where missing % has been replaced with hitting for low value, chip-away damage. It makes high HP, and good HP recharge, a huge thing. It also makes being able to switch from far/medium/short/melee and keep up the "deeps" (DPS) another huge thing.

It very much is a paradigm shift. But it is less an indictment than a sign they are trying to learn from the past. As for who ends up giving them an 'A for effort' is another thing.

Note that unlike previous editions, it's very easy for an archer fighter to be good in melee, because finesse weapons let you add Dex to attack and damage, with no special investment.

Yeah Wood Elves dual wielding with shortswords and Dual Fighting Style = yowtch.  Make it a Ranger and decide that the first hand hit makes the second hand hit count for Slayer and Ay Caramba.  Now be a Halfling and multiclass into thief with Slayer and Sneak Attack because the little fucker is nearly always hidden...Jesus Wept.

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;797731I think part of the issue is you are assigning real world issues to the bow when there are no real world issues to Eldritch blast, because its not real. So to fix that assign some real world issues to it to balance it out.

Why is it point and shoot out a finger, There may be a ton of other physical requirements to make it work. I don't know what components are required since my book is at home but surely it is not that simple.

Just my thoughts.

There are no components, its at at will effect that counts as an action
I guess you could restrictbit to needing two hands free and a set amount of space to cast effectively ascribing somantic components and requiring a lot of space

JibbaJibba

There are no components, its at at will effect that counts as an action
I guess you could restrictbit to needing two hands free and a set amount of space to cast effectively ascribing somantic components and requiring a lot of space


Well Somatic and Verbal.

I still say that verbal is not quiet or something that can be hidden and Somatic requires some stable platform to use. but that is me. Every bit as reasonable as the restrictions you set on long bow use, in my mind.

But to be honest I would ignore most that stuff becuase 5th ed to me is suppose to be simple and fun not realistic. It can be run that way perfectly well as long as you apply realism across the board equally. Sometimes that is hard to do with magically stuff as it is not real but I think you can balance it out as I have said.

Just my thoughts.