Quote from: Marleycat;797592Warlock's can only girl 2 attacks if they are Blade Pact and use an evocation on it. Also to get the CHA add to damage requires a different evocation and still only allows one attack while an archer gets 4 seperate attacks per round. It evens out just fine.

You missed a point EB at 11th level sends out 3 separate blasts that can target 3 separate targets, so its equivalent to 3 attacks from an archer.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797593ok, it's bad enough that you're ignoring the very easy to find rules, but you're also ignoring me no less than twice about dexterity bonus being added to damage.

I'm done.  Clearly you have some agenda to push for whatever reason

Yes you said it but I missed in the text so I will take a look at that and thanks ... its a change from the old days so I just guessed I missed it as i scanned the rules .

That does make a difference and its basically what I did myself to rectify the perceived gap.

No agenda just looking for solutions to a problem that arose in play is all.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797594I need to check out that refernce as that makes a difference thanks.

I don't think you can get the AC benefit if you aren't using that style at the time.
You have an assumption of course tha the warlock will still be relying on mage armour at L10 Or that there will be a suit of studded leather +1 (in the old days magical studded leather was rarer than hen's teeth, no idea how this will look in 5e yet).

Likely the warlock would rely on Mage Armor given the only better armor is plate and the best bonus is +3 and considered artifact level. There is a magic item meant to combine with Mage Armor that matches plate +3 at best but only with maximum DEX even then. The warlock is better served by taking Spell Sniper and being in the back line unlike the Archer who can either shoot into melee, move and shoot again and again or just whip out a rapier and do the same or better damage anytime they feel.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797579no, a regular attack.  I don't have my book in front of me, but I recall one of the wonky things about 5e is you can take a bonus action to ready any weapon.

so attack with sword, bonus action to ready bow, action surge to attack with bow

Oh. That sounds odd. But to be fair I don't understand enough about 5E to conclude whether or not it acutally is odd from a rules perspective.

When thinking about what is the character really doing, I'd probably be happier seeing the actions as the archer stabbing people with an arrow in hand or whacking them across the face with his bow rather than seeing it as the archer has a ready bow and arrow in one hand, hits someone with his sword, which is in his other hand, then he instantaneously sheathes his sword, nocks arrow, draws bow, and fires.

I suppose it might help in seeing the scene to know if sheathing and unsheathing a weapon is an actual action that must be taken in 5E or just something assumed to happen before a character attacks.

EDIT

Quote from: jibbajibba;797594...Or that there will be a suit of studded leather +1 (in the old days magical studded leather was rarer than hen's teeth, no idea how this will look in 5e yet).

I expect that it will look how the GM wants it to look. Do you want magical leather to be rarer than hen's teeth or as common as roving orc bands?

Quote from: Bren;797605.

I expect that it will look how the GM wants it to look. Do you want magical leather to be rarer than hen's teeth or as common as roving orc bands?

In the old days I would just roll on the treasure table .... magical studded armour not very common ....

Everything you need to know about the basic rules is in the Basic .pdf. It is free and immediately available at WotC website. What do you want to know?

About Drawing and Sheathing a Sword. It is part of your "Other Activities on Your Turn," or also known as your one free interaction with the environment.

Other Activities on Your Turn

Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move...
[communicate as able through brief utterances and gestures...]
[interact with one object or feature of the environment for free...]

[Green Box Text of Examples Later in the Same Page]
Interacting with Objects Around You

Here are a few examples of the sort of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and your action:
• Draw or Sheath a Sword [etc. ...]
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p.70.)

Ammo is a very specific property. You may load the weapon and fire all in one action.

Ammunition
[...] Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack. [...]
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 45.)

Melee attacks receive STR mod to their damage. Range attacks receive DEX mod to their damage. Thrown allows melee weapons to be thrown not as an improvised weapon, and includes their STR mod (to atk & dmg). Finesse weapons allows melee weapons to use their DEX mod (to atk & dmg). Certain Ranged weapons are designed to not have ammo keyword (dart, net), they must have the thrown property as a Ranged Weapon; Darts have finesse atop thrown to allow using either STR or DEX (for the atk & dmg).

Specifically about Weapons getting their atk mods added to the damage roll:

Damage Rolls

[...]
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier — the same modifier used for the attack roll — to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.
[...]
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 75.)

Any other questions?

The "Archer" is not a class, so I assume the comparison is to a Fighter? Anyone can use a bow, you just don't get your Proficiency Bonus to the attack roll.

As for the advantage of Eldritch Blast forever and ever v. the entire range of other weapons available, I'm assuming this is a joke discussion. Jibba Jabba, you are aware that damage comes in a variety of types and that Vulnerabilities (double damage) and Resistances (half damage) are huge nowadays. I am also sure you know that context matters, i.e. what makes for awesome sauce on the vast open plains upon a horse sucks balls inside of indoor hallways with lots of corners.

Besides paper theoretical ideas, what exactly are you seeing as the great advantage of Warlock (as if they are all the same) v. the Fighter (as if they are all the same). Have you even played 5e yet? The difference is enormous from the get go. The fighter "archer" can choose to wear heavy armor in close quarters and keep the warlock's butt alive in the back safely plinking away. That's an amazing start that should be addressed.

Okay I found the damage rule for Dex bonus to missile damage in the PHB and why I missed it.

Its not in the combat section at all its in the Character creation rules on page 14 under weapons. Which is why I missed it.

the combat section simply says "when attacking with a weapon you add your ability modifier to the damage" that seems a little vague

So I think that does make a difference and I will rethink the mighty bow I handed out.

Quote from: Opaopajr;797638The "Archer" is not a class, so I assume the comparison is to a Fighter? Anyone can use a bow, you just don't get your Proficiency Bonus to the attack roll.

As for the advantage of Eldritch Blast forever and ever v. the entire range of other weapons available, I'm assuming this is a joke discussion. Jibba Jabba, you are aware that damage comes in a variety of types and that Vulnerabilities (double damage) and Resistances (half damage) are huge nowadays. I am also sure you know that context matters, i.e. what makes for awesome sauce on the vast open plains upon a horse sucks balls inside of indoor hallways with lots of corners.

Besides paper theoretical ideas, what exactly are you seeing as the great advantage of Warlock (as if they are all the same) v. the Fighter (as if they are all the same). Have you even played 5e yet? The difference is enormous from the get go. The fighter "archer" can choose to wear heavy armor in close quarters and keep the warlock's butt alive in the back safely plinking away. That's an amazing start that should be addressed.

Yes I am aware of those things but very few things have vulnerability to piercing arrows I suspect...  and I totally agree with your other points which is why the benefit of the bow, its superior range is pretty useless in any dungeon, building or whatever where the EB pointy finger is easily superior. want to fire round a corner without exposing your self a shiny surface to get a reflection and you can just point your finger round the corner etc etc ...

The whole debate had come up because of ACTUAL PLAY the archer (yes that is correct a fighter with the Archery fighting style) and the rogue were feeling rather overshone by the Warlock once he reached second level and was blasting stuff for d10+3.  

Now I agree a lot of this is becuase I missed the damage modifier rule in the PHB.

I agree with the assessment of most others that ITT an issue gets evoked that doesn't actually exist in the game.

Magic weapons alone are an important equalizer that greatly improves the constant damage output of the bow-shooting Fighter - and we are not even talking about other class features yet.
The champion sub-class gets a lot of passive extras to its fighting stuff, but if you really want to cook with gas, try the battlemaster. Any weapon attack you want to can get a maneuvre added to inflict special statuses like prone or disarmed. That allows to control the flow of the battle especially against strong foes in ways the simple HP damage of Eldritch Blast can't.
Or even better yet, do some teamwork and have all combine their abilities to achieve things none could accomplish on their own in the white room. Let the Battlemaster shoot that Wand of Death out of the hands of the BBEG mage with his disarming maneuver, then have the Warlock blast the BBEG back several 10', and then let the Rogue Dash over there to pick it up scotsfree and Hide with it before the BBEG gets his next turn.

Ahh, so you missed the extra weapon damage. That explains the players' lackluster feeling.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797649...  and I totally agree with your other points which is why the benefit of the bow, its superior range is pretty useless in any dungeon, building or whatever where the EB pointy finger is easily superior. want to fire round a corner without exposing your self a shiny surface to get a reflection and you can just point your finger round the corner etc etc ...

Unless Eldritch Blast has some sort of special rules that obviates typical line of sight rules, you can't really do this while excluding bows. The best you can do, for both EB and arrows, is 3/4 cover shots (which grants +5 AC, both ways). However, since a Rogue can usually get Sneak Attack from Ranged Weapons, and by 2nd lvl has Cunning Action to Dash/Disengage/Hide to go be horrifying again next round, EB is quite small in the pants here as well.

QuoteA Clear Path to the Target

To target something you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover.

If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of the obstruction.

(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 80.)

I strongly suggest a slow and steady read through of the Basic rules for everybody. And then I strongly suggest a slow and steady RAW play-through for everybody. It's really the fastest way to stay on top of the rules, get a real sense of their feel, and then know what to expect when you attempt to tweak it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797589Well not quite there are a bunch of cantrip missile attacks that are fairly easy for people to pick up in a variety of ways.
The Warlock is just an exemplar

Fairly easy for a player making up a character. From a setting standpoint all those options require a serious commitment in order to acquire. If you don't roleplay that then of course it will seem unbalanced.

If your setting is one where cantrips shouldn't equal that of an arrow then reduce the damage to something like 1d4 or even 1 point.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797649The whole debate had come up because of ACTUAL PLAY the archer (yes that is correct a fighter with the Archery fighting style) and the rogue were feeling rather overshone by the Warlock once he reached second level and was blasting stuff for d10+3.  

For this specific situation you need to roleplay the complications of the Warlock's pact more. Then the fighter and rogue players will go "Oh man I don't care if he can do Eldritch Blast, at least I don't have to put up with that."

Quote from: jibbajibba;797649The whole debate had come up because of ACTUAL PLAY the archer (yes that is correct a fighter with the Archery fighting style) and the rogue were feeling rather overshone by the Warlock once he reached second level and was blasting stuff for d10+3.  

You keep saying that it came from ACTUAL PLAY but are complaining about the rules you didn't follow correctly as problems with the rules. Playing it differently than the rules doesn't make the rules wrong.

From actual play in my FLGS campaign, the party is now (mostly) 3rd level and there is a warlock in the group. No one feels that eldritch blast is overpowered or that the warlock outshines anyone.

The Halfling rogue in the party took a level of fighter and the archery fighting style. With an 18 DEX the little bugger has a +8 to hit with a short bow and does 1d6+4 per shot and quite often gets sneak attack damage as well due to targeting enemies that are already fighting (thus adjacent) to other party members.

The warlock does a bit more damage sometimes (1d10+3) when the rogue isn't getting sneak damage but not often.

In our game, it hasn't been a problem at all.