so what IS your beef then?  That EB has the range of a bow but doesn't require two hands?

big deal.  It's not game breaking at all, nor nearly as big of a deal as you're thinking it is.

Here's a suggestion:  play with it in several game sessions, then see where you're at

Quote from: jibbajibba;797574Bit confused. You simply cant use a bow with one hand ....

I think he meant an archer could hit someone in melee and then shoot someone 100 feet away, not that an archer can shoot a bow with one hand. I assume Sacrosanct intended that the archer hits in melee (like Legolas or Oliver Queen the Arrow) by stabbing with an arrow or bashing with his bow as his melee attack.

Quote from: Bren;797575Thanks for the analysis Sacrosanct. it helps to see things calculated. It does. Until he runs out of arrows.

Whether that ever happens and how often it is likely to happen in a game obviously should be a factor in any comparison.

I won't lie, having a guaranteed long range attack is the reason I have that cantrip as a monk.  But I don't use it hardly at all because most of my ranged attacks are more effective using a bow or something.

it's just important to keep in mind that the EB is the warlock's deal.  At 10th level, they still can only cast 2 spells while being as squishy as a wizard.  If their EB is awesome?  Good.  They need some trade off for having a crappy AC and low hp

Quote from: Bren;797577I think he meant an archer could hit someone in melee and then shoot someone 100 feet away, not that an archer can shoot a bow with one hand. I assume Sacrosanct intended that the archer hits in melee (like Legolas or Oliver Queen the Arrow) by stabbing with an arrow or bashing with his bow as his melee attack.

no, a regular attack.  I don't have my book in front of me, but I recall one of the wonky things about 5e is you can take a bonus action to ready any weapon.

so attack with sword, bonus action to ready bow, action surge to attack with bow

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797570Let me put it like this.  If you're gonna be an archer, you probably have DEX as your highest stat.  So let's compare that to a warlock (highest stat CHA), and for equality, they both have a +3 modifier in their best stat, and no other bonuses

Level 1:
warlock: +5 to hit, 1d10 damage.  Can only cast one spell.  Typical AC 10, 8 hp
archer (fighter): +5 to hit, 1d8+3 damage, AC 15 (studded lthr+dex), 10 hp

archer has the clear advantage there

Level 5 (both used ability bump to raise their best stat 2 pts):
warlock: +7 to hit, 1d10+4 dmg (assumed to have invocation), 2 beams.  Can only cast 2 spells.  Typical AC 13 (mage armor), 24 hp
archer: +7 to hit, 1d8+5 (should have magic +1 weapon by this point). two attacks.  Champion now crits on a 19-20.  Action surge.  AC 16 (s. leather+dex), 32hp

Level 10: (archer gains one more feat option or ability increase above warlock.  Let's say that's a +1 bonus now to Con.  Both also increase their main stat to 20)
warlock: +9 to hit, 1d10+5 damage, 2 beams.  Can still only cast 2 spells.  AC 13 (mage armor), 46 hp
archer: +9 to hit, 1d8+6 damage (+1 wpn +dex), 2 attacks.  action surge.  AC: 19 (+1 s. leather + dex), 70 hp.  Gains a second fighting style (+1 AC)

It seems to me that the dedicated archer is still better.  Damage seems to be actually a bit higher because you add DEX bonus from the get go (warlock doesn't get that until they get that invocation), and they can get a magic weapon.  AC and HP are significantly higher, equaling a much longer staying power, and the warlock still only can cast 2 spells.

So yeah, IMO, the eldritch blast is not overpowered when taken in the context of the warlock class.

You give the archer a + on damage. I couldn't see that in the rules at all. I gave our archer a Mighty Bow so he culd get his Str damage bonus, but I totally pulled that shit out of my arse. In the rules only melee and thrown weapons are getting a damage bonus unless I missed something. Certainly can't see a rule saying an archer gets Dex bonus to damage. iIt's not a finese weapon. (I might have missed it though I give you that if you can identify the page woudl be great)

Also I am a bit confused as to how the Fighter in leather armour gets an ac of 19 at level 10. I can see studded leather AC 12 and +5 for his now 20 dex (which is something of an assumption but I will go with it) I think that gives them AC 17.

Back in the day the fact that the caster needed to hit would have been a big balancer but now the caster and the fighter by default have the same chance to hit.

Also you are the one doing all this in a white room. I am thinking about the actually use of a one handed missile weapon sans ammo with a range of 120 feet that deals more damage by default that a long bow and can be used in any circumstance you have a hand free because it doesn't need bracing, leverage or all that other stuff that mundane missile weapons need, in actual play.
The Magical blast type cantrips are equivalent to an automatic pistol that requires no ammo can be summoned at will; can't be dropped , broken or stolen; and probably uses the casters best stat to replace dex on the chance to hit.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797579no, a regular attack.  I don't have my book in front of me, but I recall one of the wonky things about 5e is you can take a bonus action to ready any weapon.

so attack with sword, bonus action to ready bow, action surge to attack with bow

Yeah well that is in the category of silly rules that make no sense :)I'll let you load your bow as a bonus action but not sheath your sword, ready your bow draw an arrow ...

dex applies to damage on ranged attacks.  Same page where it says str bonus is applies to melee and some thrown attacks.  Combat chapter.  AC 19 from studded leather+1, DEX 20, and second fighting style, as I listed above.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797529In 5e we have the Warlock doing 1d10 damage on an eldrich strike and by second level 1d10 +Chr bonus (probably +3) with a +5 to hit (proficiency +2 and that Chr bonus) .

The archer at 1st level is doing 1d8 with a bonus to hit (combat speciality archer +2) so +7 to hit (assuming a 17 dex)

anyone else making tweaks?

No, nor should you.

What being ignored is the fact anybody can go and be trained to fire a bow while a person has to sell his soul, seal a pact, or similar to be a warlock. Archers in the setting are always going to out number warlocks.

The 5e setting is a world where a few individual can fire blue bolts as go as or slightly better than an archer. But those individuals are in thrall or beholding to an supernatural entity with its own interest.

If your campaign have a problem with too many warlocks then you need to roleplay the effect of being in thrall to some supernatural force more. The only people who want to play warlock are those who find that interesting.

That how I get away with having overpowered elves and pumped up paladin in the Majestic Wilderlands. My players realize if they want to truly be free to set their own agenda they are better off being a fighter, rogue, or magic-user and to a lesser extent a cleric.

crap, I just realized I forgot to include the extra bonus to hit for archery in my example above.  Heck, the archer gets that much better then...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797576so what IS your beef then?  That EB has the range of a bow but doesn't require two hands?

big deal.  It's not game breaking at all, nor nearly as big of a deal as you're thinking it is.

Here's a suggestion:  play with it in several game sessions, then see where you're at

This has come up after several game sesisons.
Which is why I raised it.

we have a Warlock with EB and a Sorcerer with Firebolt.

The rogue with his shortbow and the Archer with his long bow are feeling a little put out. So the archer now has a "mighty bow" to help with damage. because I was feeling his 1d8 vers the Warlock's d10 + 3 was a little outmatched.
Espeically for all the other reasons I outlined of practial usage.

the sorcerer's firebolts have the sweet benefit of igniting flamable material whcih has been a boon as well.

I am asking not out of some desire to knock the system but becuase i feel teh attack cantrips are overpowered but I worry that nerfing them would weaken the casters so I was asking if people have observed the same.

Quote from: estar;797583No, nor should you.

What being ignored is the fact anybody can go and be trained to fire a bow while a person has to sell his soul, seal a pact, or similar to be a warlock. Archers in the setting are always going to out number warlocks.

The 5e setting is a world where a few individual can fire blue bolts as go as or slightly better than an archer. But those individuals are in thrall or beholding to an supernatural entity with its own interest.

If your campaign have a problem with too many warlocks then you need to roleplay the effect of being in thrall to some supernatural force more. The only people who want to play warlock are those who find that interesting.

That how I get away with having overpowered elves and pumped up paladin in the Majestic Wilderlands. My players realize if they want to truly be free to set their own agenda they are better off being a fighter, rogue, or magic-user and to a lesser extent a cleric.

Well not quite there are a bunch of cantrip missile attacks that are fairly easy for people to pick up in a variety of ways.
The Warlock is just an exemplar

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797585crap, I just realized I forgot to include the extra bonus to hit for archery in my example above.  Heck, the archer gets that much better then...

The archer gets archery +2 Prof +2 and a dex bonus call it +3 for +7 to hit at 1st level. Dealing 1d8 damage

The Warlock gets +2 Prof +3 from stat for +5 to hit 1d10 damage.

That was okay the archer was better at hitting .. fine

by second level the warlock got +3 damage on the blast. so now +5 to hit/1d10+3 damage versus +7 to hit/1d8 damage.

At that point the bow seems a fair bit weaker. Effectively the average damge from the EB is 9 versus 5 fromt eh bow so it kind of feels in play that eh bow is doing 1/2 the damage and hitting 10% more often.

So the archer got a bow that only he could pull back that gave a +4 damage (the archer has 19 Str) but that was me entirely using DM fiat and making up a thing.

In the RAW it would seem that the cantrip stays competative with the bow all the way through with the archers additional attacks being matched with the cantrip getting extra strikes etc (in fact eth EB can add a shed load of other specials but not essential tot eh thrust here).

When I first scanned the rules my expectation was that the damage cantrips woudl be about he same as the bow but as the PCs gained levels the cantrips woudl stay doing the same sort of damage and become outclassed by the caster's other spells and powers. Just like a wizard throwing daggers back in teh day but with more colour. But it seems that they actually improve to keep pace with the specialist archer type matching their extra attacks etc ... this I did not expect and think with no components/slots /limits its a little too tough

Quote from: snooggums;797551The archer can also take the Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter, can shoot more shots in a round with Action Surge when needed, can improve their crit range (Champion), and can get a magic weapon at some point.

Whether this balances out the other abilities a Warlock can get is subjective, and I do see the two as comparable because of the archer's ability to still be effective in melee combat when needed while the Warlock is likely to get squishy fast.

Warlock's can only girl 2 attacks if they are Blade Pact and use an evocation on it. Also to get the CHA add to damage requires a different evocation and still only allows one attack while an archer gets 4 seperate attacks per round. It evens out just fine.

ok, it's bad enough that you're ignoring the very easy to find rules, but you're also ignoring me no less than twice about dexterity bonus being added to damage.

I'm done.  Clearly you have some agenda to push for whatever reason

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797582dex applies to damage on ranged attacks.  Same page where it says str bonus is applies to melee and some thrown attacks.  Combat chapter.  AC 19 from studded leather+1, DEX 20, and second fighting style, as I listed above.

I need to check out that refernce as that makes a difference thanks.

I don't think you can get the AC benefit if you aren't using that style at the time.
You have an assumption of course tha the warlock will still be relying on mage armour at L10 Or that there will be a suit of studded leather +1 (in the old days magical studded leather was rarer than hen's teeth, no idea how this will look in 5e yet).