I know we tossed this about a few months back but now I am into a 5e campaign I am a bit more worried about cantrips damage strikes.

In 5e we have the Warlock doing 1d10 damage on an eldrich strike and by second level 1d10 +Chr bonus (probably +3) with a +5 to hit (proficiency +2 and that Chr bonus) .

The archer at 1st level is doing 1d8 with a bonus to hit (combat speciality archer +2) so +7 to hit (assuming a 17 dex)

The archer needs to track ammo but has a better range , though underground or inside this is probably moot.

This "balance" continues up the levels with 11th level both the warlock and the archer having 3 attacks with the same differences in damage and to hit (so by default the warlock gets +Chr bonus damage and the archer gets +2 to hit). The warlock can add a couple of extra features to his Eldrich blasts as well.

I wasn't entirely comfortable with Cantrips that deal significant damage and now I see the cantrip compared to the bow in play I am less comfortable.

I have tried to alieviate this by giving our fighter a "Mighty Bow" that you need 18 strength to draw so he can get his Str bonus on damage.

anyone else making tweaks?

The warlock is extremely limited in spellcasting ability compared to other casters, so EB is sort of his thing.  Nerf that, and he's not left with much except being squishy like a wizard, but with a fraction of the spells.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797536The warlock is extremely limited in spellcasting ability compared to other casters, so EB is sort of his thing.  Nerf that, and he's not left with much except being squishy like a wizard, but with a fraction of the spells.

So the archer's compensation is they are less squishy?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797536The warlock is extremely limited in spellcasting ability compared to other casters, so EB is sort of his thing.  Nerf that, and he's not left with much except being squishy like a wizard, but with a fraction of the spells.

Not so squishy... d8 HP and Mage armour at will... and are you suggesting Warlocks just "spam EB" as the kidz say these days ?

But you can have another caster using the eldrich blast cantrip for 1d10 just without the damage bonus.
Thinking about it woudl the archer be better getting the feat that lets him learn 2 cantrips and picking Eldrich blast?

Never had a problem with a caster hitting for massive damage with a spell but unlimited missile for more than a bow seems a little meh..

Quote from: Bren;797546So the archer's compensation is they are less squishy?

The archer can also take the Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter, can shoot more shots in a round with Action Surge when needed, can improve their crit range (Champion), and can get a magic weapon at some point.

Whether this balances out the other abilities a Warlock can get is subjective, and I do see the two as comparable because of the archer's ability to still be effective in melee combat when needed while the Warlock is likely to get squishy fast.

Quote from: snooggums;797551The archer can also take the Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter, can shoot more shots in a round with Action Surge when needed, can improve their crit range (Champion), and can get a magic weapon at some point.

Whether this balances out the other abilities a Warlock can get is subjective, and I do see the two as comparable because of the archer's ability to still be effective in melee combat when needed while the Warlock is likely to get squishy fast.

yep. Also, the archer has more HP, better AC (even at will mage armor can't compare to armor), and other benefits like you mention.  And yes, if you only have 2-4 spell slots, you're going to rely on EB often.  So I don't see a problem at all with the way it's currently structured.  Haven't seen a problem during game play either

Quote from: snooggums;797551The archer can also take the Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter, can shoot more shots in a round with Action Surge when needed, can improve their crit range (Champion), and can get a magic weapon at some point.

Whether this balances out the other abilities a Warlock can get is subjective, and I do see the two as comparable because of the archer's ability to still be effective in melee combat when needed while the Warlock is likely to get squishy fast.

I included Archery fighiting style that is the +2 to hit.
I agree with action surge and they get second wind etc etc ...

but warlocks get a bunch od magic spells as wel
and forget Warlock per se its just an example but any caster could get a cantrip doing consistent ranged damage with no ammo.
An Eldrich knight with Eldrich blast?
Is an archer comparable to a fighter with the magic use feat and the eldrich blast cantrip?

As I say I gave the Archer a "mighty bow" so they get +str damage on bow damage but the damage cantrips do feel a little  ummm.. a couple of players have already called it out

let me address the "any class can get it" thing you've mentioned twice so far.  Most of those classes won't have CHA as one of their best stats, so they won't have a bonus to hit near what they would have with another option.  Also, they might not even be able to learn it in the first place if it's not on their spell list.  I have a monk with magic initiate with that cantrip, but it's only for a long range attack for emergencies.  I have no CHA bonus to hit, so I'm much better off using a DEX based ranged attack

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797556let me address the "any class can get it" thing you've mentioned twice so far.  Most of those classes won't have CHA as one of their best stats, so they won't have a bonus to hit near what they would have with another option.  Also, they might not even be able to learn it in the first place if it's not on their spell list.  I have a monk with magic initiate with that cantrip, but it's only for a long range attack for emergencies.  I have no CHA bonus to hit, so I'm much better off using a DEX based ranged attack

Okay .... but now you are kind of slicing it down a bit. Even if it only gets +1 damage (a 12 Chr isn't a big ask...) its still looking better than a long bow.  

There are loads of practical advantages to being able to shoot missiles from your fingertips with no need to hold a weapon and carry ammo,. I can shoot from the back of a horse, hanging from a rope, holding a mcGuffin, climbing a cliff, holding a sheild, a sword, a torch etc etc
A fighter with EB could easily hit someone in melee then action surge to take a ranged shot at a guy 100 feet way.

I am just looking to see if anyone else has encountered it and taken an action?
The +str damage on the box really helps but only in this one instance as the player rolled 18 Str... and still decided to be an archer , but that is what you get with new players who don't think about optimisation.

The other PCs with shortbows certainly felt outclassed by the sorcerer and his firebolt.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797562I am just looking to see if anyone else has encountered it and taken an action?

Note: I have not played this or done anything but spit ball an idea so this fix may well be worse than the problem that jibbajibba is seeing.

What if each casting of the firebolt cost the caster 1 HP "damage" for each bolt (or maybe every five bolts) due to exhaustion, dissipation of chi, expenditure of mana, or whatever fictional rationalization you wanted. Would that tip the balance too far in the other direction?

Quote from: jibbajibba;797554Is an archer comparable to a fighter with the magic use feat and the eldrich blast cantrip?

If you continue to ignore all of the stuff that makes a fighter who specializes in bows good at things other than shooting a bow, then yeah a Warlock spamming Eldritch Blast as the only thing they ever do in a white room will do more damage than a fighter shooting a bow in a white room.

I just don't see a fighter character shooting a bow most of the time being terrible compared to a Warlock casting Eldritch Blast in a way that would need any kind of house rule to address this "problem" when durability and utility of the classes are quite different outside of their primary shooting attack.

Let me put it like this.  If you're gonna be an archer, you probably have DEX as your highest stat.  So let's compare that to a warlock (highest stat CHA), and for equality, they both have a +3 modifier in their best stat, and no other bonuses

Level 1:
warlock: +5 to hit, 1d10 damage.  Can only cast one spell.  Typical AC 10, 8 hp
archer (fighter): +5 to hit, 1d8+3 damage, AC 15 (studded lthr+dex), 10 hp

archer has the clear advantage there

Level 5 (both used ability bump to raise their best stat 2 pts):
warlock: +7 to hit, 1d10+4 dmg (assumed to have invocation), 2 beams.  Can only cast 2 spells.  Typical AC 13 (mage armor), 24 hp
archer: +7 to hit, 1d8+5 (should have magic +1 weapon by this point). two attacks.  Champion now crits on a 19-20.  Action surge.  AC 16 (s. leather+dex), 32hp

Level 10: (archer gains one more feat option or ability increase above warlock.  Let's say that's a +1 bonus now to Con.  Both also increase their main stat to 20)
warlock: +9 to hit, 1d10+5 damage, 2 beams.  Can still only cast 2 spells.  AC 13 (mage armor), 46 hp
archer: +9 to hit, 1d8+6 damage (+1 wpn +dex), 2 attacks.  action surge.  AC: 19 (+1 s. leather + dex), 70 hp.  Gains a second fighting style (+1 AC)

It seems to me that the dedicated archer is still better.  Damage seems to be actually a bit higher because you add DEX bonus from the get go (warlock doesn't get that until they get that invocation), and they can get a magic weapon.  AC and HP are significantly higher, equaling a much longer staying power, and the warlock still only can cast 2 spells.

So yeah, IMO, the eldritch blast is not overpowered when taken in the context of the warlock class.

Quote from: jibbajibba;797562Okay .... but now you are kind of slicing it down a bit. Even if it only gets +1 damage (a 12 Chr isn't a big ask...) its still looking better than a long bow.  

No, not really.  Not when the archer gets a much higher + to hit and damage.

QuoteThere are loads of practical advantages to being able to shoot missiles from your fingertips with no need to hold a weapon and carry ammo,. I can shoot from the back of a horse, hanging from a rope, holding a mcGuffin, climbing a cliff, holding a sheild, a sword, a torch etc etc

There is nothing that implies that you would not suffer the same penalties for using an eldritch blast as you would a bow.  both are described at attacks.  As a DM, I would impose the same penalty to hit with EB as I would with a bow in the same scenario.  Also, EB requires a free hand to cast, same as any other one handed ranged weapon.

QuoteA fighter with EB could easily hit someone in melee then action surge to take a ranged shot at a guy 100 feet way.

He can do the same thing with a bow, according to the rules

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797573No, not really.  Not when the archer gets a much higher + to hit and damage.



There is nothing that implies that you would not suffer the same penalties for using an eldritch blast as you would a bow.  both are described at attacks.  As a DM, I would impose the same penalty to hit with EB as I would with a bow in the same scenario.  Also, EB requires a free hand to cast, same as any other one handed ranged weapon.



He can do the same thing with a bow, according to the rules

Bit confused. You simply cant use a bow with one hand and you can't use a long bow (at least not an English longbow) from a horse not a disadvantage a physically impossibility. I was using the long bow as its the best missile weapon. If I used daggers , handaxes or other one handed missile weapon the EB is vastly superior.

Thanks for the analysis Sacrosanct. it helps to see things calculated.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;797570It seems to me that the dedicated archer is still better.

It does. Until he runs out of arrows.

Whether that ever happens and how often it is likely to happen in a game obviously should be a factor in any comparison.