Since 5e Basic is considered to be a self-contained game, I'd like to discuss different house rules that people are coming up with. Not for some cause or for system mastery, just for FUN.
It would be handy to have a pile of these house rules all in one place.
I recognize that there's still some ambiguity on how 5e Advanced (ie- the Game Master's Guide) will handle some things, but for the sake of moving forward I'd still like to play the hacking game with Basic for now.
I'll start (and hopefully others will submit their ideas as well):
* * *
Races - Basic-Basic Edition
work in progress
I want to strip out all of the mechanical differences between the races. Not for the sake of "balance" or "fairness", but for simplicity.
Instead, the idea is to differentiate each race (and sub-race) with Advantages for situations in which their popular traits would be relevant. Eg.: Dwarves are stubborn and resolute, halflings are likable and stealthy, Elves are graceful and wise. Or whatever.
For Humans, I'd give them similar Advantages based on their home region. People of the northern steppes are hardy in the cold. People of the Islands are used to maritime environments. People from the "City of Thieves" are great at deception and persuasion.
The Advantage would work like this: "[race] gets an Advantage on [skill] checks in [this context]"
I don't know HOW MANY of these Racial Advantages there would be. Maybe just three (I'm a fan of the number). Nor do I know which Advantages would be assigned to each race. And I certainly don't know yet how this will affect Ability Scores...
Not a perfect idea, I'm sure, but I'm working on it.
What about you?
A split between HP's and Body Points. BP's=Average of STR/CON. When you take a crit, you lose 1 BP, in addition to HP's. Level drain drains BP's as well. Each lost BP is -1 to everything you do until healed. If at 0 HP's and 0 BP's, you're dead (0 HP's and positive Body means you're unconscious). If at 0 HP's, all hits are crits, so you lose BP's. I like this better than death saves.
Quote from: cranebump;767154A split between HP's and Body Points. BP's=Average of STR/CON. When you take a crit, you lose 1 BP, in addition to HP's. Level drain drains BP's as well. Each lost BP is -1 to everything you do until healed. If at 0 HP's and 0 BP's, you're dead (0 HP's and positive Body means you're unconscious). If at 0 HP's, all hits are crits, so you lose BP's. I like this better than death saves.
How are you handling the recovery of BPs? At what rate do they heal naturally and how does healing magic affect them?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;767162How are you handling the recovery of BPs? At what rate do they heal naturally and how does healing magic affect them?
1 BP/day of complete rest (could also rule 1 BP/week, for slower heals). Takes spell effects worth 10HP's healing to affect a BP (so a spell that heals 10 HP's would heal the HP's AND a BP). Could also rule that spells must be dedicated to EITHER BP or HP (not both), if you wanted to make it rougher on the players.
Along with this, I was thinking about ruling that HP's recover naturally at 10%/max per hour. You could still use the PC's HD pool, which constitutes a sort of "stamina reserve." I'd slow-heal those HD, too, though, probably same manner as BP's. OR just use the HD rules as written. Spells might end up being as much about Body loss as anything.
A split between Hitpoints and "true injuries" seems indeed like a good idea, mostly due to accelerated rate of HP recovery. Using HP strictly as some sort of Endurance and Injury Points as "true injuries" works well enough in a similar system (the one from 3rd edition is a decent example). Of course, having suffered a wound automatically means some sort of penalties; it was the fatigued rider in 3rd edition, for 5e I would go with "automatic disadvantage".
I would, however, link the regeneration of Inury Points to Constitution saves, to give a slight edge to fighters and the like who are supposed to be a bit tougher. Something like regaining 1 Injury Point per week, plus 1 per day for each successful Constitution Save. Magic Spells heal 1 Injury Point per level of the spell.
What I currently miss is any rule to intercept spellcasting. There are no attacks of opportunity or different speed rates to do so, and I want spellcasters to really, really want to have bodyguards around them to cast savely, creating mutual dependencies between various characters. So, probably spellcasting will take longer (effects only materialize after everyone's turn, when the spellcaster gets distracted in that time (e.g. by being stabbed) the spell fails.
My house rules:
No inspiration rule. Flaws/bonds/ideals is something that you play out during roleplay, and don't need a mechanic for.
Healing: No hp recovery after a long rest. You get back HD, but no additional healing
Those are the big two I can think of. I was thinking of limiting at will cantrips, but it hasn't been a problem, so there's no need to find a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
Quote from: Beagle;767196A split between Hitpoints and "true injuries" seems indeed like a good idea, mostly due to accelerated rate of HP recovery. Using HP strictly as some sort of Endurance and Injury Points as "true injuries" works well enough in a similar system (the one from 3rd edition is a decent example). Of course, having suffered a wound automatically means some sort of penalties; it was the fatigued rider in 3rd edition, for 5e I would go with "automatic disadvantage".
I would, however, link the regeneration of Inury Points to Constitution saves, to give a slight edge to fighters and the like who are supposed to be a bit tougher. Something like regaining 1 Injury Point per week, plus 1 per day for each successful Constitution Save. Magic Spells heal 1 Injury Point per level of the spell.
What I currently miss is any rule to intercept spellcasting. There are no attacks of opportunity or different speed rates to do so, and I want spellcasters to really, really want to have bodyguards around them to cast savely, creating mutual dependencies between various characters. So, probably spellcasting will take longer (effects only materialize after everyone's turn, when the spellcaster gets distracted in that time (e.g. by being stabbed) the spell fails.
Making martial classes better at recovery is not a bad idea. However, if you did go with the %/hp's idea, they are more hardy anyway, as 10% of a fighter's HP's are higher than 10% of a mage's HP's. Plus CON, in 5th Ed, is already pretty highly valued for HP generation and saves. I can see either working just fine, though.
With spells, I thought Mages still had to worry about losing Concentration spells if hit?
Same here.
Though I'm also fairly certain I'm going to ban feats when the PHB comes out.
Okay some more thought on my Basic-Basic Races idea.
Ability Scores: Each Race has one primary Ability increase of +2, then another one based on their Sub-race (+1 or +2, but I can't figure out how they determine which). I'm just going to propose a +1.
Since I'm working on ditching all mechanical differences, how would this work?
Dwarf: +2 Constitution, +1 Wisdom (Hill) or +1 Strength (Mountain)
Elf: +2 Dexterity, +1 Intelligence (High) or +1 Wisdom (Wood)
Halfling: +2 Dexterity, +1 Charisma (Lightfoot) or +1 Constitution (Stout)
Human: +2 to the Ability of your choice, +1 to the Ability of your choice
Each race's Advantages will be tied to their most widely accepted traits and tropes. I'm guess 2 for the core, and another 1 for the sub-race. Humans will just have 1 or 2 that are universal, and another one tied directly to their "environment".
I'm thinking about adding 1/2 profiencency to non-profiencent saves.
I'm not thinking about house rules until I have run the intro adventure with RAW to see what needs tweaking.
Any critical hit with a lethal weapon, and any injury that drives you to 0 HP, calls for an immediate Con save to avoid a major injury. Major injuries are determined by rolling d100 and consulting an old-schoolish crit table, but all of the effects have nothing to do with damage — the HP consequences are already covered by the situation that got you to this stage in the process. Rather, the effects are all couched in terms of conditions and other similar effects. E.g., broken arm; head cracked open and put in a coma; bleeding wound that just won't stop without a healing roll of 20+; etc. With a rule like this in place, I don't mind playing the HP surge rules as written.
All the fiddly numbers stuff (racial stat bonuses; proficiency bonus uses; etc.) just doesn't bug or interest me. I'ld much rather play those sorts of things as written so I don't have to think about them. Of course one could imagine a version of the game where everyone is 10 % better or worse at saving throws or attacks or whatever. But in the end who really gives a shit; it will all just work out in the wash. My motivation with any house rule is to add a little spice to the pot so things happen during play that are exciting or interesting or make the adventure more engaging for me because it feels more realistic. Some sort of serious injury mechanic does that for me because it increases the risk associated with combat and leads to problems the party has to overcome. Like, 'oh shit, our ranger guide just got his skull split open, we are totally going to get lost in this forest if we don't figure out how to wake him up!'. Or, 'what are we supposed to do with this fat fuck who got his femur broken and can't walk?'.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;767257I'm not thinking about house rules until I have run the intro adventure with RAW to see what needs tweaking.
That's very fair.
Quote from: Necrozius;767238Okay some more thought on my Basic-Basic Races idea.
Ability Scores: Each Race has one primary Ability increase of +2, then another one based on their Sub-race (+1 or +2, but I can't figure out how they determine which). I'm just going to propose a +1.
Since I'm working on ditching all mechanical differences, how would this work?
Dwarf: +2 Constitution, +1 Wisdom (Hill) or +1 Strength (Mountain)
Elf: +2 Dexterity, +1 Intelligence (High) or +1 Wisdom (Wood)
Halfling: +2 Dexterity, +1 Charisma (Lightfoot) or +1 Constitution (Stout)
Human: +2 to the Ability of your choice, +1 to the Ability of your choice
Each race's Advantages will be tied to their most widely accepted traits and tropes. I'm guess 2 for the core, and another 1 for the sub-race. Humans will just have 1 or 2 that are universal, and another one tied directly to their "environment".
I would do something more radical and get rid of all racial stat bonuses. Instead have racial stat maximum and minimums. If you qualify then you get to be race of choice.
So Dwarf Minimums - Str = 8; Con = 12. Maximum Dex =16
Elf Minimums Dex = 13, Char = 12. Maximum Con=17
Halfling Minimums Dex =10, Con =9 . Maximum Str =14
Etc etc
You guarentee all elves are graceful and all Dwarves robust but don't have to have any stat bonuses that can be exploited .
Depending on the races supposed background would probably substantially increase XP demands for all non human races (substantial being Elves need 2x XP , Dwarves 1.7 x those sorts of numbers or perhaps even higher)
Would use a wound/HP mechanic as I have for the last 25 years in 2e.
Would remove cantrips that deal damage
Would look at the full magic system very carefully and write up a consistent psuedo science for it and adjust elements to fit if necessary.
Off the top of my head (because I'm on vacation and not at home...)
• Steal Vitality / Wounds alternate system from the SRD. Seriously, I hate the ambiguity of HP and the constant bickering it's caused when considering non-magical / inspirational gaining of HP (love the Warlord). So, I redefine HP into Vitality and actual wounds.
- Magic and spells like Cure Light Wounds will only replenish vitality (despite "wounds" being in the spell name) and only long rests OR usage of higher level spells will restore wounds.
- Critical hits will target wounds, making them FAR more dangerous than I've seen in the playtest or 4E (in v3.5 I used W & V system).
• Houserule a Vampire class (yea, I liked them in 4E)
• Add alternative class features to the Paladin to make them less reliant on armor and more like the 4E avenger class Oath of Vengeance is supposed to make them.
• Add a feat called Martial Training so that the Cleric, Wizard, Druid, etc. doesn't HAVE to put a mandatory positive stat in Strength or Dexterity to make them somewhat decent in attacking with weapons. It'll probably give them proficiency in a weapon of their choice (for clerics, it'll automatically be their deity's preferred weapon unless it's already a simple one, then they add 1/2 their Proficiency bonus to damage rolls when using their deitie's simple weapon).
• Create a sub-path for the Barbarian that makes them more like a 4E Warden.
....That's pretty much it I think...
Not sure I have house rules as of yet. Depends on how you define that.
Is it changing rules or just adding them. A wound system changes the basic rules.
Does it include just expanding on things, such as new backgrounds which I have added in while putzing around with the system. After the Players handbook comes out I am sure I will do yet another conversion of the spells I created in AD&D with my wizard. I have done conversions/rewrites for every edition but 4th (Just didn't play it enough to bother)
So as for adding stuff. I will but actual rules alterations probably not until I run for a while.
Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;767299Not sure I have house rules as of yet. Depends on how you define that.
Is it changing rules or just adding them. A wound system changes the basic rules.
Clarification: I meant both adding to or changing the
Basic Rules.
Just the Basic rules, operating under the assumption that they represent a complete, self-contained game.
One's reasons for doing this sort of thing can be varied: because you think something is broken, too vague, because you'd prefer if a certain rule was handled differently. In my case, I just like to make the Basic rules MORE basic.
It's just for fun. I'm not proposing writing angry letters to WoTC. And yes, the first time I'll actually play it will be RAW.
Quote from: Necrozius;767306Clarification: I meant both adding to or changing the Basic Rules.
Just the Basic rules, operating under the assumption that they represent a complete, self-contained game.
One's reasons for doing this sort of thing can be varied: because you think something is broken, too vague, because you'd prefer if a certain rule was handled differently. In my case, I just like to make the Basic rules MORE basic.
It's just for fun. I'm not proposing writing angry letters to WoTC. And yes, the first time I'll actually play it will be RAW.
If it were basic my only concerns are healing rates, hitpoints, save throws, concentration.
1. I would slow down healing rates somehow.
2. I would prefer a W/V model.
3. I am leery about non-profiencent saves I wonder if half profiencency rounded down wouldn't break anything.
4. I love the concentration rules but at higher levels it's virtually impossible for a pure backline magic using class to make that save even with CON maxed because you don't have profiencency in CON for either BASIC choice. And no multiclass option as of yet to possibly mitigate it.
Now I am pretty confident that the full game will have most of those concerns answered by various options in the DMG or maybe feats or even MCing.
Oh, another one. You only get one death saving throw on your next round. Take damage when you're unconscious, you're dead.
Depends on which setting.
If I was doing Black Shadow (my own made up setting) I would divide health in three groups. Wound (con score), heroic (level), and spirit (wis score). That way I can have attacks that harm the body, mind, and soul while having the heroes get a tiny buffer. Seriously if they get lucky and get 20 in both ability scores and reach level 20 that is really 40 hp either way. In this game your gonna have to be careful.
I would also modify the magic system. Cantrips would be weaker. We are talking about light a candle instantly, but you still need a candle to fuel the light. Instant cast spells would take up slots, or do damage to you. Slots will be reduce. Rituals will be for powerful spells which is basicly any thing above level 5 spells. Best of all magic is open to all classes, but taking it will be risky while making you powerful enemies.
Fighters great weapon style... Hits on a miss for STR bonus damage... :cool:
Quote from: Sacrosanct;767376Oh, another one. You only get one death saving throw on your next round. Take damage when you're unconscious, you're dead.
I prefer the -10 or-CON rule myself.
Stuff I immediately noticed after lots of chargen...
~ I want a less flat stat progression with a large saddle-point of average, closer to TSR. It really cuts down on power inflation and loosens the tight design for setting flexibility.
~ To further broadening of skills with less stat mod dependence, I want around 3 to 4 skills selectable for proficiency by everyone. Proficiency bonus is a great universal mechanic to mitigate mediocre/bad stats. Further the non-rogue classes need broader skill pool to select from.
~ Saves are just wrong. Gotta all increase by level, otherwise you are further in the mercy of stat mods. The obvious best solution I can see is Proficiency bonus for all, Advantage for the two class proficient ones.
~ Because the very first thing I will do -- nay, must do! -- as a player, or GM!, is run a Cleric with Thaumaturgy on, in triplicate, FOREVER!!, at-will Cantrips gotta go. I cannot resist 3 eternal omens like booming voice, ominous sounds, animals striking curious poses, and mild earthquakes being forever on. I would order food that way; it would stay on as I ate. I would have doors fly open, spotlights, disembodied screams, and so forth, constantly as I walk past markets, palaces, outhouses, etc. My most menial tasks, like doing my laundry or darning socks will be dripping with portent. And I shall not be alone...! IT CANNOT BE, IT IS SHEER MADNESS! IT IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL, SHINIEST, JOLLIEST, MOST CANDY-LIKE RED BUTTON OF TABLE DISRUPTION EVER — AND IT MUST. NOT. BE! And Prestidigitation is no better!
It is a drama queen's orgiastic bacchanal of ambrosia and god nectar, all deep fried in loving goodness sprinkled with powdered sugar on top. And it is haram.
Cantrips MUST BE capped to at least spell stat/spell/day. Even an Int or Wis of 8 or 9 is plenty for that many castings of any one Cantrip. Your Int or Wis is the ammo count for how many castings you can fire for each Cantrip. Gotta do something.
I need a lie down before I can continue. The possibilities all went to my head and I'm still feeling faint from the vapors. Ooh, sweet temptation, how you nettle me ceaselessly!
Quote from: Opaopajr;767595~ Because the very first thing I will do -- nay, must do! -- as a player, or GM!, is run a Cleric with Thaumaturgy on, in triplicate, FOREVER!!, at-will Cantrips gotta go. I cannot resist 3 eternal omens like booming voice, ominous sounds, animals striking curious poses, and mild earthquakes being forever on. I would order food that way; it would stay on as I ate. I would have doors fly open, spotlights, disembodied screams, and so forth, constantly as I walk past markets, palaces, outhouses, etc. My most menial tasks, like doing my laundry or darning socks will be dripping with portent. And I shall not be alone...! IT CANNOT BE, IT IS SHEER MADNESS! IT IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL, SHINIEST, JOLLIEST, MOST CANDY-LIKE RED BUTTON OF TABLE DISRUPTION EVER — AND IT MUST. NOT. BE! And Prestidigitation is no better!
It is a drama queen's orgiastic bacchanal of ambrosia and god nectar, all deep fried in loving goodness sprinkled with powdered sugar on top. And it is haram.
Cantrips MUST BE capped to at least spell stat/spell/day. Even an Int or Wis of 8 or 9 is plenty for that many castings of any one Cantrip. Your Int or Wis is the ammo count for how many castings you can fire for each Cantrip. Gotta do something.
I need a lie down before I can continue. The possibilities all went to my head and I'm still feeling faint from the vapors. Ooh, sweet temptation, how you nettle me ceaselessly!
This was beautiful and hilarious.
...And thought-provoking too... I hadn't considered how much people could spam magic this much. My players and I prefer slightly more "low-magic" campaigns in which sorcery always carries a mild risk of weirdness (thanks WFRP). I will ponder this...
So, after actually playing this beast yesterday night, I sat down with my fellow players (half of whom are almost as old as my parents and haven't played any form of D&D since the Player's Options series for AD&D, if ever). So, we are usually playing Runequest and HarnMaster, but for the sake of a playtest, we tried this D&D thing. (I have been slightly more experienced with the system in more recent years). This was easily the most fun I had with D&D in more years than I care to look back. We had a really good night.
While the overall impression was quite good (apart from the obvious criticisms like about passive vs. active defense and why there needs to be something as metagamey as classes and levels), and it was decided that we might continue this game, with a few changes (with which I have been charged to implement).
The conclusion of us old, bitter men aren't probably very useful for other players, but that is what we came up with:
- Regaining all Hitpoints so damn quickly isn't good for the game's verisimilitude; it feels rather silly. This can be - and needs to be - solved with a decent Injury Point System, however, which still let you regain all your Stamina (Hit Points) during a rest, but doesn't completely trivialize the fact that you have been stabbed. Generally speaking, the game doesn't feel lethal enough. So: Hitpoints will be treated as usual. Additionally, everyone has "Life Points" equal to your CON, plus your STR bonus. All crits and all attacks that superseede the AC by 5 or more points automatically deal "Life Point" damage, which also happens if you lose all your hitpoints. Once you lose more than half your Life Points (rounded in favor of the victim), you automatically grant advantage to all actions against you and suffer from automatic disadvantage to all your actions. If your Life Points are reduced to 0, the Dying Save minigame is initiated as usual.
- Free, inconsequential spellcasting leads to inflationary use of said spells and makes magic too mundane and banalizes it. So, there should be some sort of limiter. And of course: "Wait, so you need to roll a die to see if you can hit something with a stick - something a baboon can manage quite well - but using supernatural powers just work perfectly fine all the time with no possible chance of failure or backfiring?" (I paraphrase). Thus, spellcasting will require some sort of skill test (Arcana for Wizards and Religion for Clerics) against a DC of 10+Spell level; on a failed roll, nothing happens, you have only wasted your action; but when you roll a natural 1, something bad will happen. For now, we'll go with "the opposite of the intended effect, as interpreted by the GM". When I have more time at hand, there will be a random magical botch table.
- Due to reasons of nostalgia, we will try to return to the old AD&D style of multi-classing and dual-classing: Taking a new class resets you to level 1, you may regain the abilities of your old class when your new one has exceeded your original level. Non-Humans can multi-class, but will logically advance slower in level. Also: "Why can dwarves be mages? How silly is that?" So there will probably be some sort of race-based class limitations.
.
Gonna run the Starter RAW and see how bad my teeth itch. That'll give me enough to figure out if houseruling the system is worth it.
~ I want spell casting in combat able to be interrupted. I'm thinking of a Concentration check, CON save at DC 20 v. being whacked before your initiative. With my houserule of Prof. Bonus to every save (Adv to class saves), higher tier play will have closer to 50% success but otherwise emphasizes cover and allies.
~ I actually like the "Best 3 Outta 5" cumulative success Death Saves, a lot. It would make a great resource for future mechanics, like a Death Domain power I just made up: "All is Sweet in Death" As a Bonus Action, give a Death Save Failure to a dying creature within 30'.
~ Healing rate is too much for me, however I really do like HD as a resource to heal. First off, readjusting the defined period of Short and Long Rest seems like the fastest and least disruptive solution. Currently it is 1 hour Short Rest = spend available HD for heals, and 8 hour Long Rest = Full HP and 1/2 HD regen.
This is waaaaaaay too short for just about every setting I run, or plan to run. My time interval is Short Rest is 8 hours in a dangerous area, and Long Rest is 8 hours amid a safe, civilized area (town, large encampment, oasis). That helps emulate the stress of wilderness survival for my settings.
Further, going from 1 hour Short Rest to 8 at-risk hours Short Rest really tamps down on the Fighter's Second Wind, which I already have problems with. However, that Second Wind makes fighters most capable of staying out in wilderness for longer periods of time. It is a free HD heal every day instead of every other hour — bringing it down to merely very powerful from ba-roken.
Also I adjust Long Rest healing to 1 free HD heal, instead of full HP heal, while keeping the elegant 1/2 HD regen. This reduces healing in town to two or three days, which is still too short for me, but a far more manageable compromise. So those two things — readjust Rest Time definition and intervals, and crimp Long Rest full HP heal — goes a long way to repair this big problem for me.
Quote from: CRKrueger;767610Gonna run the Starter RAW and see how bad my teeth itch. That'll give me enough to figure out if houseruling the system is worth it.
I like this plan.
Quote from: Opaopajr;767907~ I want spell casting in combat able to be interrupted. I'm thinking of a Concentration check, CON save at DC 20 v. being whacked before your initiative. With my houserule of Prof. Bonus to every save (Adv to class saves), higher tier play will have closer to 50% success but otherwise emphasizes cover and allies.
~ I actually like the "Best 3 Outta 5" cumulative success Death Saves, a lot. It would make a great resource for future mechanics, like a Death Domain power I just made up: "All is Sweet in Death" As a Bonus Action, give a Death Save Failure to a dying creature within 30'.
~ Healing rate is too much for me, however I really do like HD as a resource to heal. First off, readjusting the defined period of Short and Long Rest seems like the fastest and least disruptive solution. Currently it is 1 hour Short Rest = spend available HD for heals, and 8 hour Long Rest = Full HP and 1/2 HD regen.
This is waaaaaaay too short for just about every setting I run, or plan to run. My time interval is Short Rest is 8 hours in a dangerous area, and Long Rest is 8 hours amid a safe, civilized area (town, large encampment, oasis). That helps emulate the stress of wilderness survival for my settings.
Further, going from 1 hour Short Rest to 8 at-risk hours Short Rest really tamps down on the Fighter's Second Wind, which I already have problems with. However, that Second Wind makes fighters most capable of staying out in wilderness for longer periods of time. It is a free HD heal every day instead of every other hour — bringing it down to merely very powerful from ba-roken.
Also I adjust Long Rest healing to 1 free HD heal, instead of full HP heal, while keeping the elegant 1/2 HD regen. This reduces healing in town to two or three days, which is still too short for me, but a far more manageable compromise. So those two things — readjust Rest Time definition and intervals, and crimp Long Rest full HP heal — goes a long way to repair this big problem for me.
8 hours for a short rest is far too long. 2 hours is plenty given the rules themselves are intended for no more then 2 in a day according to Mearls.
Quote from: Marleycat;7679308 hours for a short rest is far too long. 2 hours is plenty given the rules themselves are intended for no more then 2 in a day according to Mearls.
I completely disagree. As it stands, even at 2 hours, it undermines how I manage my settings.
Quote from: Opaopajr;767907~ I want spell casting in combat able to be interrupted.
I missed the analysis that said it couldn't. You can ready an action, correct?
You name the trigger, correct?
I name the trigger as "when the spellcaster opens his mouth."
The trigger action is completed before he finishes the incantation and therefore before the spell goes off, so my javelin/arrow/bolt takes flight before the spell itself is completed.
If it hits, he takes damage and has to make a concentration check.
Quote from: Saplatt;767968I missed the analysis that said it couldn't. You can ready an action, correct?
You name the trigger, correct?
I name the trigger as "when the spellcaster opens his mouth."
The trigger action is completed before he finishes the incantation and therefore before the spell goes off, so my javelin/arrow/bolt takes flight before the spell itself is completed.
If it hits, he takes damage and has to make a concentration check.
Correct if it's a buff/control spell. If it's a fire and forget spell sorry no dice. It's already plenty enough with the baseline concentration rules. Except we have no clue what tricks an Abjurer has.
My advice? What until the DMG is out before you start getting crazy with the houserules. And don't forget your yellow towel.
Quote from: Marleycat;767979Correct if it's a buff/control spell. If it's a fire and forget spell sorry no dice. It's already plenty enough with the baseline concentration rules. Except we have no clue what tricks an Abjurer has.
My advice? What until the DMG is out before you start getting crazy with the houserules. And don't forget your yellow towel.
I was going to argue with you, based on the wording of the "Ready" action, but the concentration rules (p80 of the free pdf) indeed don't require checks for spells that don't require maintained concentration.
You're right. As the rules stand, you can't interrupt a nonconcentation spell, period.
Ugh. That's the single biggest problem I've seen with 5E to date.
One day at WotC...
Mearls - So team what was one of the problems with 3e we can solve.
Designer - It was next to impossible to interrupt a caster due to the 5' step.
Mearls - Ok, so we'll make it so you can't interrupt them while casting, period. Great session, have a great weekend!
Designer - That's not what...
Mearls - See you on Monday!
I know, I know, we'll just have to wait for the Mythical Caster Interruption Module in the DMG.
Looking at Basic further, I am really liking my adjustment to Resting. I see that Channel Divinity abilities reset after either a Short/Long Rest. Though this effectively limits Turn Undead, I am OK with this for it mirrors parity with Arcane Recovery.
Arcane Recovery has a limiter of once per day, even though it is triggered by a Short Rest. By adjusting Short Rest definition it coincidentally conforms to Arcane Recovery's daily rate — and makes convenient parity with the fighter's, cleric's, and wizard's advantage. It is a bookkeeping convenience, and an interesting compromise between strategic resource management and those wilderness class advantages.
Quote from: Opaopajr;767994Looking at Basic further, I am really liking my adjustment to Resting. I see that Channel Divinity abilities reset after either a Short/Long Rest. Though this effectively limits Turn Undead, I am OK with this for it mirrors parity with Arcane Recovery.
Arcane Recovery has a limiter of once per day, even though it is triggered by a Short Rest. By adjusting Short Rest definition it coincidentally conforms to Arcane Recovery's daily rate — and makes convenient parity with the fighter's, cleric's, and wizard's advantage. It is a bookkeeping convenience, and an interesting compromise between strategic resource management and those wilderness class advantages.
No it removes arcane recovery. 8 hours? Totally useless. It isn't like ANY spellcaster has spell slots in the number of 0-3e. And it fucks the fighter up as usual by requiring everybody's favorite NPC (cleric). While screwing any cleric with the Turn ability. Remember BASIC is bare bones, no other subclasses, classes, races....nothing. I really suggest before going insane at least see the full traditional subclasses of the base 4/4.
Seriously Wizards are nerfed enough already when you realize even in current BASIC 46% of the wizard spell list is concentration spells and the the fact at higher levels you aren't supposed to be able to make those checks. It's part of the strategy and tactics for a pure magic user to decide when and who to buff or control. And the frontline who to attack or protect just like before 3x.
Quote from: CRKrueger;767991One day at WotC...
Mearls - So team what was one of the problems with 3e we can solve.
Designer - It was next to impossible to interrupt a caster due to the 5' step.
Mearls - Ok, so we'll make it so you can't interrupt them while casting, period. Great session, have a great weekend!
Designer - That's not what...
Mearls - See you on Monday!
I know, I know, we'll just have to wait for the Mythical Caster Interruption Module in the DMG.
Ha! You know, we were playtesting this incorrectly, using the ready action to interrupt casters ... but the fact is that I rarely did that with monsters because it was too much of a hassle to manage. And while I can think of a couple of fights that would have played out differently, the PCs didn't use it that often because the vast majority of the monsters were using abilities rather than spells in any event.
So maybe I will take Marleycat's advice on this one and just see how it plays out as written.
By gum, you learn something every day around here.
Quote from: Marleycat;767996No it removes arcane recovery. 8 hours? Totally useless. It isn't like ANY spellcaster has spell slots in the number of 0-3e. And it fucks the fighter up as usual by requiring everybody's favorite NPC (cleric). While screwing any cleric with the Turn ability. Remember BASIC is bare bones, no other subclasses, classes, races....nothing. I really suggest before going insane at least see the full traditional subclasses of the base 4/4.
Seriously Wizards are nerfed enough already when you realize even in current BASIC 46% of the wizard spell list is concentration spells and the the fact at higher levels you aren't supposed to be able to make those checks. It's part of the strategy and tactics for a pure magic user to decide when and who to buff or control.
Nah we'll just all nerf the Wizards down from Human Torch level, and everything will be just fine, you'll see. ;)
Quote from: CRKrueger;767999Nah we'll just all nerf the Wizards down from Human Torch level, and everything will be just fine, you'll see. ;)
:Heh.:D
Quote from: Marleycat;767996No it removes arcane recovery. 8 hours? Totally useless. It isn't like ANY spellcaster has spell slots in the number of 0-3e. And it fucks the fighter up as usual by requiring everybody's favorite NPC (cleric). While screwing any cleric with the Turn ability. Remember BASIC is bare bones, no other subclasses, classes, races....nothing. I really suggest before going insane at least see the full traditional subclasses of the base 4/4.
Seriously Wizards are nerfed enough already when you realize even in current BASIC 46% of the wizard spell list is concentration spells and the the fact at higher levels you aren't supposed to be able to make those checks. It's part of the strategy and tactics for a pure magic user to decide when and who to buff or control. And the frontline who to attack or protect just like before 3x.
Again, I completely disagree. Previously, Wizards resting in dangerous wilderness areas risk getting zero spells. As 5e spell preparation brings huge flexibility, and are easily revised next day in mere minutes, I am cool with severely limited slot regeneration amid danger.
I think all of these problems you have emulate closer to the TSR power level I far prefer for my settings. The tamping down on Turn Undead was a surprise, but a pleasant one, as I did have some reservations of its unlimited nature from TSR. Essentially what you see as bugs, I see as features.
I think I might be done with hammering down the power level. However I still need to fashion a stat mod progression to my liking. I'm tempted to borrow TSR's stat mod progression wholesale...
With the magic system i think the key is internal consistency. If your magic system makes sense and hold up to inspection then you can start to to look at ways to tweak "balance".
For all my criticisms in this topic I must compliment how easily modulated 5e is so far. There is still quite a bit of houserule unintended consequences, as there's greater integration of mechanics across game facets. But I am familiar with that difference from TSR to WotC, and in a way I am at peace with sacrificing some discrete for some elegance.
If they can hit the DMG out of the park with solid modularity, this could definitely be my "2nd D&D" as a compromise between WotC D&D fans and I.
Quote from: Opaopajr;768024Again, I completely disagree. Previously, Wizards resting in dangerous wilderness areas risk getting zero spells. As 5e spell preparation brings huge flexibility, and are easily revised next day in mere minutes, I am cool with severely limited slot regeneration amid danger.
I think all of these problems you have emulate closer to the TSR power level I far prefer for my settings. The tamping down on Turn Undead was a surprise, but a pleasant one, as I did have some reservations of its unlimited nature from TSR. Essentially what you see as bugs, I see as features.
I think I might be done with hammering down the power level. However I still need to fashion a stat mod progression to my liking. I'm tempted to borrow TSR's stat mod progression wholesale...
Opa I like you but you need to understand why 5e characters have positive modifiers and understand 22 slots are half of what 0-2e wizards had or the fact Arcane recovery is only allowed for wizards and the spellcaster druids. Have fun with your silly solution but don't get mad when the DMG has a solution far less silly. Like Mearls said please play the game RAW before going totally 2e on it.
Good positive mods are critical because of the hard cap and bounded accuracy. Or the fact that the spells themselves are far weaker then 0-2e. I would murder any 5e wizard with my 2e counterpart easily.
I will play it RAW a few times, but I have very strong doubts.
Quote from: Opaopajr;768326I will play it RAW a few times, but I have very strong doubts.
Fair enough. Remember to run the spells as written and use concentration as written. My bet is that you'll figure out why cantrips are at will and things like Stoneskin or Antimagic Field or Finger of Death aren't "I win" buttons unless they're used strategically and only rarely tactically. They all need serious planning and in most cases someone running interference while you wait to drop the hammer.
It's far better for a wizard to Stoneskin the fighter or the life cleric to lay down an Antimagic Field and let the frontline types have at it for example.
You want to take direct action? I would suggest a different domain or a multiclass F/M or a Dragon Sorcerer or Blade Pact Warlock. Or a Skald college Bard.
... I don't think I can play a magic class until Cantrips are capped. I've spoken my problem with Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy in this topic already. I am a finite being; there is only so much self-control available.
:(
Quote from: Opaopajr;768334... I don't think I can play a magic class until Cantrips are capped. I've spoken my problem with Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy in this topic already. I am a finite being; there is only so much self-control available.
:(
I can muster the interest to play a few games as is, but I doubt I could develop much investment in a campaign with the at-will Thaumadigitations.
It's one thing to have a bit of disappointment that they didn't pick my particular cuppa as the reference point for a new edition (we've all been there, amiright?), but given the nature of power creep / powers creep (pretty much monotonically increasing) it's that much more frustrating that they didn't start out with the lower-magic option and tack on.
Quote from: Opaopajr;768334... I don't think I can play a magic class until Cantrips are capped. I've spoken my problem with Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy in this topic already. I am a finite being; there is only so much self-control available.
:(
They are capped. You only get them if you're a full spellcaster (cleric, wizard, bard, sorcerer and maybe warlock) 5 is your total unless you're a high elf or tiefling. And if you actually think an official module for lower magic won't be in the DMG like slots per day or Primary stat add + level isn't offered you're being a bit closed minded. Cantrips like healing rates are painfully easy to alter if that's your preference.
Quote from: Marleycat;768346They are capped. You only get them if you're a full spellcaster (cleric, wizard, bard, sorcerer and maybe warlock) 5 is your total unless you're a high elf or tiefling. And if you actually think an official module for lower magic won't be in the DMG like slots per day or Primary stat add + level isn't offered you're being a bit closed minded. Cantrips like healing rates are painfully easy to alter if that's your preference.
I think he means capped in terms of uses per day.
Opa, I suggest (and I may have done before, I don't remember) limiting cantrip uses to the appropriate ability score (Intelligence for Wizards, Wisdom for Clerics and Druids, etc.) This will still give you enough that you're not hopelessly crippled, but give you a reason not to just spam your cantrips constantly.
Quote from: Opaopajr;768334... I don't think I can play a magic class until Cantrips are capped. I've spoken my problem with Prestidigitation and Thaumaturgy in this topic already. I am a finite being; there is only so much self-control available.
:(
Tiefling rogue Opa, Thaumaturgy at-will. You're your own walking John Woo special effects team. You're even cool when taking a shit. :cool:
Quote from: LibraryLass;768362I think he means capped in terms of uses per day.
Opa, I suggest (and I may have done before, I don't remember) limiting cantrip uses to the appropriate ability score (Intelligence for Wizards, Wisdom for Clerics and Druids, etc.) This will still give you enough that you're not hopelessly crippled, but give you a reason not to just spam your cantrips constantly.
Yes, that is what I meant, the at-will issue. And yes, I have that houserule mentioned in my first post in this topic, IIRC. And yes Marleycat, I do intend to take a look at the DMG magic restriction options when they appear.
However I also do know myself, too. My self-imposed restriction to only play fighters and rogues until the DMG is more an attempt to not be the table asshole. Trust me, I can gleefully ThaumaDigiFap an entire session by myself at the starting town — as GM or player — and as the corollary to Martha Stewart's Wisdom "that's not a good thing."
Quote from: CRKrueger;768363Tiefling rogue Opa, Thaumaturgy at-will. You're your own walking John Woo special effects team. You're even cool when taking a shit. :cool:
Monty, Monty, Monty! I don't even knoooow! Door number one, two,
and three? Oh my gawd, Monty! — I could really use the lifetime supply of paper towels, but... Oh my gawd, should I let the audience decide?
(You don't even understand. I was already looking at Basic with High Elves getting a wizard Cantrip — obviously Prestidigitation! — and already planning: 1. puffs of wind, 2. blowing out a candle, 3. odd odor, and following up with a haughty "Who farted?" in my best Patrick Stewart voice. I can't, I just can't take it! I've already been bouncing off the walls with the possibilities for
days!)
:(
Oh fuck me, now I gotta plot what to do with a Tiefling Rogue with Thaumaturgy...
30 seconds in. Acrobatics, Stealth, Thaumaturgy: Climb heights, hide, create raven/eagle cries as you ninja shit on people from above. Repeatedly. Sweet Jesus Christ, cut me off already, I'm a junkie!
:(
Quote from: Opaopajr;768365Yes, that is what I meant, the at-will issue. And yes, I have that houserule mentioned in my first post in this topic, IIRC.
Ah, so you did. My bad!