Football in the U.S. is huge. Nothing in television comes close. Look at Nielsen 2013 results:

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/newswire/2013/tops-of-2013-tv-and-social-media.html
TOP TV PROGRAMS OF 2013 - SINGLE TELECAST

Rank   Telecast   Originator   Date Aired   Persons 2+ Rating   Average # of Viewers
1   SUPER BOWL XLVII   CBS   02/03/2013   37.6   108,693,000
2   SUPER BOWL XLVII-DELAY   CBS   02/03/2013   36.8   106,556,000
3   SUPER BOWL XLVII PST-GAME   CBS   02/03/2013   21.9   63,260,000
4   SUPER BOWL KICK-OFF   CBS   02/03/2013   21.8   63,003,000
5   AFC CHAMPIONSHIP ON CBS   CBS   01/20/2013   16.5   47,707,000
6   FOX NFC CHAMPIONSHIP   FOX   01/20/2013   14.5   41,974,000
7   THE OSCARS   ABC   02/24/2013   14.0   40,376,000
8   FOX NFC WILDCARD GAME   FOX   01/06/2013   13.2   38,088,000
9   AFC DIVISIONAL PLAYOFF-SU   CBS   01/13/2013   13.0   37,657,000
10   AFC DIVISIONAL PLAYOFF-SA   CBS   01/12/2013   12.2   35,274,000

TOP 10 PRIMETIME TV PROGRAMS OF 2013 - REGULARLY SCHEDULED

Rank   Program   Originator   Persons 2+ Rating   Average # of Viewers
1   NBC SUNDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL   NBC   7.4   21,734,000
2   SUNDAY NIGHT NFL PRE-KICK   NBC   5.3   15,708,000
3   THE OT   FOX   5.0   14,753,000
4   NCIS   CBS   5.0   14,692,000
5   DANCING WITH THE STARS   ABC   4.7   13,862,000
6   NFL REGULAR SEASON L   ESPN   4.6   13,446,000
7   AMERICAN IDOL-WEDNESDAY   FOX   4.6   13,384,000
8   BIG BANG THEORY, THE   CBS   4.5   13,217,000
9   AMERICAN IDOL-THURSDAY   FOX   4.5   13,136,000
10   DANCING W/STARS RESULTS   ABC   4.5   12,890,000

Quote from: Baron;757398Seems like there are two topics in these threads:

- Why won't you buy and play 5E?

The answer you give the question is perfectly reasonable. And I haven't seen anyone say it isn't. A lot of people are happy with an RPG they already have.

What the disputes are about is people who ostensibly are open to playing and buying 5E, who offer up marginal reasons why it isn't what they need, or what they wanted WotC to make, so now it's completely off the table. Anyone who has followed the development at all (or who even approaches the subject with honesty and common sense) realizes that an edition of D&D published today has to cater to a diverse fanbase, including many players who only got into the hobby in the last 10 years. 5E will have to include elements that support varied styles of play: low power, high power, grid combat, theatre of the mind, etc.. It will have to be familiar and comfortable to long-time and lapsed players, or it will be another 4E. It will also need to include some innovation - otherwise, why not simply reprint an older edition?

Now, some people will find these compromises and innovations unappealing. Which is fine. But there are also folks out there who never had any intention of accepting compromises (usually because they want 5E to fail, for various reason). So they're not really interested in honest discussion about the game. It's just tribal edition warring, under the guise of "I was open to 5E and I really wanted WotC to succeed, but..."

Quote from: Baron;757398- Don't you know that you have to, to support our hobby?

Has anyone said that on this forum?

My interest in 5e will be determined by future products. If WotC starts a supplement treadmill, I don't see a problem, if they continue produce quality products which has nothing to do with player-side rules. In fact, I hope the game produces a supplement treadmill, but designed in a way the books can be ignored if desired. Some players want more options, give them the choice.

Quote from: Spinachcat;757304Thank you!

I expect RPG.net to be nutball, but how is ENworld and WotC discussion going? I pop over there irregularly and haven't seen a big 5e blowout.

WotC boards have the most trolling and outright edition warring going on because it's set up like RPG.net without the +/- minus system or subforums of ENWorld at the start of July it will be set up like ENWorld and there will be alot of bannings.

EnWorld is just wierd it's kind of like RPGnet in that there is a lot of code speak going on and they have a tendency to get stuck in the mutinea (sp) like this thread on RPG.net....http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?728169-Starter-Set-Excerpt-2-Equipment it's not edition warring at all just that some are completely clueless and off track about what 5e is actually about.

It's like very few are catching on that 5e is going to be a configurable game to approximate the other editions not actually be compatible in the classic sense most times.

That equipment thread is mind-boggling.

I just want to be able to buy "meat comma chunk ofs" and I'll be happy.

For some reason we always said items in the buy list this way if it had a comma in it. It just kind of stuck after awhile, which is why in my games we always carried pole comma 10 foots around.

Quote from: One Horse Town;757424That equipment thread is mind-boggling.

Equipment lists are always problematic and have been argued about for ages. Ugh, I remember the "history buff" guys who went on and on about why 1e gear should have cost more/less whatever way back when.

Personally, I only use gold coins in my OD&D games. I can't care about tracking 3 different kinds of currency.

Quote from: Spinachcat;757441Equipment lists are always problematic and have been argued about for ages. Ugh, I remember the "history buff" guys who went on and on about why 1e gear should have cost more/less whatever way back when.

Personally, I only use gold coins in my OD&D games. I can't care about tracking 3 different kinds of currency.

Yep. I get that 'Ale - 3cp' has a legacy. But really, who would squawk if that stuff was removed? Who really feels it has to be there to be D&D?

Quote from: Baron;757398Seems like there are two topics in these threads:

- Why won't you buy and play 5E?
- Don't you know that you have to, to support our hobby?

So, my answers.

- I haven't bought a TSR/WOTC/Hasbro D&D product since 1st ed AD&D. Why would I start now? I already own and play games that I love. That fill the fantasy sword & sorcery class-based rpg niche. I don't buy a car unless I need a new car. And I don't need a new car.

- Our hobby has branched out into a number of little sub-groups. Many of them are self-sufficient. Many produce their own materials, either for sale or given away at no charge. In fact, there are so many different items published or self-published in a year that I would find it very, very difficult to be at all even mildly curious about them all, let alone support these creators with my money. I certainly wouldn't be able to use so many products.

If I want to play rpgs, then I just have to convince others in my circle of friends/acquaintances to play. The materials are already out there. Hasbro doesn't need my money. And whether they can sell yet another game system with the label "D&D" on it, or not, doesn't really impact me. Will there always be rpg materials available? Will enough people hear about them to be interested?

Aren't there more important things in life to be worried about?

I don't care if you play rpgs or which ones you play. But don't take my disinterest as some kind of passive-aggressive attack on you, personally. If something comes along that purports to present something different, and that particular twist seems like something I might like, and if I happen to be in the market for trying a new game, then, if I feel it's reasonably priced, and the reviews look good, I might join a group that's playing it, and give it a spin. But it's a long, long process before you'll get any money out of me.

More important things to worry about?  You know we're communicating in a tabletop RPG forum on the internet, right?

The passive/aggressive assumption is what I was trying to identify and address.  One group shouldn't feel attacked by another.  

Allow me to suggest some middle ground.  5e lovers will stop demanding why non-5e lovers won't buy/play/love the new D&D while non-5e lovers stop putting down (TrollCrapFlaming?) the 5e lovers and their enthusiasm.  

My idea of "support" is to not denigrate 5e at every opportunity.  No money has to change hands, no one is being forced to try it out, let alone approve.

VS

p.s.  Enough with the sports, please!  Analogy is one thing, but now it's time to find a new thread for football vs. soccer vs. whatever.

Quote from: Haffrung;757442Yep. I get that 'Ale - 3cp' has a legacy. But really, who would squawk if that stuff was removed? Who really feels it has to be there to be D&D?

You already know who....seriously it's all a matter of degree and some love details/systems to the nth detail and some just handwave stuff. It's all DnD to me though. I like using the Silver standard just to make gold and platinum really standout.

Quote from: Haffrung;757442Yep. I get that 'Ale - 3cp' has a legacy. But really, who would squawk if that stuff was removed? Who really feels it has to be there to be D&D?

  From my observations, there does seem to be a segment of the fanbase (often, but not always, part of the Old School) that wants to focus on 'gritty, low-powered fantasy' where a few coppers can really be important. I don't know how big they are, or if it's just a few vocal people. I remember the run up to Star Wars Saga Edition on the WotC forums, when people got so upset about the lack of Profession skill rules and tech-building details that you'd think they wanted to play Nute Gunray.

  The equipment lists make a lot of sense if you're emphasizing logistics, puzzle-solving and the like--you've got to careful balance usefulness, cost, carrying capacity and other factors. However, that's a fairly extreme pole of D&D gaming. And the Old School feel of this equipment list is arguably undercut by having things like healing potions on it.

  WotC has said that the equipment buying system for starting PCs is mostly optional, and that most players will be able to just take their Background and one of their Class equipment packages, add them together, and go. I'm just fine with this.  But then, I really can do with a minimalist approach to equipment and accounting in gaming. I've had a soft spot for abstracted wealth systems ever since I read the design essay on Swordbearer's wealth system in Heroic Worlds.

I fully expect that sort of thing in the game - especially a bloody starter set.

It's to get things going. The argument that this stuff is meaningless at 3rd level or whatever is just crap play-style biases masquerading as genuine critique.

Like much of the criticisms i'm seeing (more at other places, true) it's just sour-grapes that 5e is even existing and thus a happy continuation of the cycle of life that is edition wars.

Quote from: One Horse Town;757455It's to get things going. The argument that this stuff is meaningless at 3rd level or whatever is just crap play-style biases masquerading as genuine critique.

I suspect the "real" criticism is the idea of paying for room/board at all.

Quote from: Haffrung;757411Has anyone said that on this forum?

I'm not sure that anyone has said...

Quote from: Haffrung;757411"I was open to 5E and I really wanted WotC to succeed, but..."

..but that doesn't stop the spin.

Quote from: Marleycat;757447I like using the Silver standard just to make gold and platinum really standout.

I do that in Runequest and Warhammer. It's a good method, but D&D, for me it's all about the gold.