The edition war seems to be turning into a war of enthusiasm:
http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-enthusiasm-war.html
For those who'd rather read it below than on my blog...
QuoteThe Enthusiasm War
Something strange is brewing just below the surface of D&D's upcoming 5th edition. I don't know if it's a backlash or some kind of mutant rebound backlash reverberating through the RPG echo-sphere. Anyway, the effects are being talked about even though only a few people are addressing the problem itself. And it is a problem, in my estimation. Not because I have a particular view and others aren't agreeing with it, but that many gamers are fighting some invisible edition war over a set of rules which doesn't even exist yet. It's not even a war of editions - it's a war of enthusiasm (or lack thereof). Why?
Below are the eight camps I've seen. Chances are, you're in one of the categories below or a hybrid of multiple categories. Again, I don't care who is where or why... I would just like everything on the table so that maybe some civility can prevail, if not transcendent introspection.
1. So, we've got people who are loving the promise of 5e and what it represents.
2. People who are tentatively optimistic but skeptical.
3. Those who just don't care.
4. Those who think 5e is doing far too little, too late and are unhappy about one thing or another.
5. A few cranks who absolutely loath 5e and what it represents.
6. 5e lovers who are sick and tired of what they perceive to be 5e hating trolls.
7. Those disenchanted by what they've seen of 5e who just want the 5e lovers to shut up already.
8. Cautious, intrigued skeptics who feel harassed or threatened by all the 5e love.
Maybe the gaming community just needs to work this stuff out on its own by constantly arguing back and forth. I don't know. However, I will say that in certain corners of the internet, the trolling, flaming, petty bickering, and "threadcrapping" looks pretty ugly.
Perhaps we can agree on a few things... our very own Geneva Convention? If one side refrains from using the phrase "OSR Taliban" and projecting that the other side "hates 5e" even though they're only skeptical or ambivalent, the other side can stop this: "Your 5e super-fandom is threatening my cautious appraisal of what I've seen so far; now I'm going to go off on it - and you!" Sound fair?
Even though I'm pleased about what I've seen from all the articles, interviews, forum discussion, and playtest documents regarding 5e (yes, I've done the research), that's not why I'm on the + side of the debate. Just to be clear, I'm not against debate. In fact, I love it... when it's constructive. Another reason I'm pro D&D is because our hobby is shrinking and could eventually die off if we're not passionate about its progression.
Now, there are many routes to rejuvenation. 5e isn't the answer to everything and, for you, it might be the wrong answer. But at least it's something. A step in the right direction. Want to go a different route? Awesome. Do it. Grow paper & pencil tabletop roleplaying in your own way. Just know that if you decide to do nothing, then 5e might be the only reason ordinary people know what a roleplaying game is five years from now. "You know, like Dungeons & Dragons."
As a community, we can be critical while still being supportive; we can like what we like while understanding those who don't. I propose we approach further discussion consciously. Hopefully, that's not too much to ask.
VS
I'm cautiously optimistic. Having the rules as a free pdf makes me more likely to try it. It'll likely have some nuggets to steal if nothing else.
Bounded accuracy sounds promising.
Quote from: VengerSatanis;757192Maybe the gaming community just needs to work this stuff out on its own by constantly arguing back and forth.
You can read the gaming community
working this stuff out back in early Dragon magazines. I don’t think much progress has been made since.
Some random thoughts about the most vocal:
The arguing is more important than the argument. I hear the kids doing this all the time, or sports fans, or historians, or politicos...
A lot of people love D&D (their hockey team, their political party...) For some, they’ve sunk countless hours into the game, building a sort of personal relationship with it. To see a new version is to see
someone else’s D&D, that isn’t quite how they’d do it. If the writers had only done X, it would be way better. Same thing happens in sports talk or political commentary or which Beatles’ song is best.
For others, they seek community under the umbrella of the new thing. To see a new version is to see an opportunity to get involved with the upcoming new best thing. They are willing to overlook the
not-quite-how-I’d-do-it parts to get in on the ground floor. In a similar way, some seek community under the
old best thing and are willing to overlook aspets of their own games. At times these two clash in some sort of generational dominance thing (again, not a gaming-specific human trait.)
So we’ve got arguing to confirm one’s relationship with the game, either personal or communal, or most likely a bit of both. The content of the debate is less important than the debate itself. Those on the “New thing” or “Old thing” side will argue for their position, and those on the “personal thing” will argue for the way they’d have done it. I don’t know if this is good or bad, but it sure is human.
At the same time, there has been a good bit of rational debate as well as blatent trolling. So yeah, people.
Languagegeek has spoken well. Much of the heat has been shed in tribal ritual, meant to establish in-group bona fides.
The light has come from the previews themselves, and enough has been shed for the several tribes to line up and be counted.
Knife fight at midnight!
The shuffling of musical chairs online will be interesting to see once the BASIC PDF comes out and after the PHB comes out.
"Zap it, buzz it, easy does it! Stay cool, cool boy!"
Quote from: languagegeek;757197You can read the gaming community working this stuff out back in early Dragon magazines. I don't think much progress has been made since.
Not just Dragon, in a various fanzines, where they were free of TSR editorial control.
Anyway, I think the big problem with 5e is apathy. There seem to be some people excited for it, but most seem largely "meh".
Pathfinder fans will probably still play Pathfinder.
4e fans will probably still play 4e
OSR fans will probably still play OSR games.
And I don't think the core problem at WOTC has been fixed - namely that their adventures tend to be awful and their products lackluster in general. And while they are generously giving away the basic rules, their main competitor is essentially giving away all the rules.
I think there are probably six categories of detractors:
1. Roleplaying Game Systems Experts who feel that 4es biggest failure was that IT DIDN’T GO FAR ENOUGH in distancing itself from previous editions of the game and are upset that WotC didn’t hire them as consultants for 5e.
2. Butthurt 4e fans who are upset that they lost the Edition Wars and want to see 5e strangled in the cradle, or otherwise out-bomb 4e, so that they’ll have someone lower on the failure ladder to piss on.
3. Butthurt 3e fans who are still suffering PTSD from 4e, most of whom have sworn allegiance to the One True Paizo Golem God and who will never, ever forgive WotC for their pain.
4. Long-lost fans of previous editions who are satisfied with their system and too cheap to buy a new one or too old and mentally challenged to be bothered with learning new rules, even if they are mostly the same as the old ones.
5. People who have a personal grudge against members or consultants of the WotC 5e team, for reasons that have nothing to do with the system.
6. Then, and only then, those who just don’t give a damn and never will.
What's funny about the situation is that this site is having the most balanced discussion about the game between ENWorld, TBP and the WotC boards and here.
Quote from: JeremyR;757216Pathfinder fans will probably still play Pathfinder.
4e fans will probably still play 4e
OSR fans will probably still play OSR games.
I think that depends on why they're playing those games. I expect 5E will draw a lot of its audience from PF and OSR fans who play those games for what might be called 'ancillary' reasons--support, popularity, etc.
As I've theorized elsewhere, the D&D family of games currently has three major 'tentpoles' or polarities--Exploration-focused (OD&D), Character Building-focused (3.5/PF) and Tactical Combat-focused (4E)--and other versions of the game tend to land in the middle area bounded by those three. 5E is placing itself squarely in the middle.
Folks who play OSR games for the heavy exploration focus will probably stick with those, but those who just want something lighter than the other two tentpoles and don't care about logistical details and the nitty-gritty of dungeon/hexcrawl exploration may adopt 5E, especially if it's well-supported and popular. Similarly, PF fans may move towards it if they want something lighter, and just start using their Adventure Paths with 5E rules.
4E's audience (which I count myself as part of--I do actually like the game and a lot of what it tried to do) will probably not switch altogether; the audience has been trimmed down to those who appreciate the game for what it is, and 5E isn't trying to be the same thing. But they may adopt the game as an alternative or something that does different things.
And that's the other thing that I think may help--less of a 'One True Game' approach and more of a 'modern system that looks and feels like D&D' that people can use as part of their library. I know I've been looking for a 'cleaned-up, smoother, more flexible 2E' for a few years now, even after coming around to 4E's virtues, and 5E appears to have the potential to fill that niche. One thing where the Pundit and I actually agree (I think) is that WotC may be targeting 5E as 'everyone's second-favorite D&D'.
QuoteAnd I don't think the core problem at WOTC has been fixed - namely that their adventures tend to be awful and their products lackluster in general. And while they are generously giving away the basic rules, their main competitor is essentially giving away all the rules.
Well, they're subcontracting the adventures--AFAIK, the Starter Set is by Rich Baker and the first adventure path by Kobold Press. :) As for giving away the rules, in Paizo's case, that's making a virtue of necessity--the OGL means that any mechanical stuff they create that hooks heavily into their basic rules has to be Open in turn.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;757227I think that depends on why they're playing those games. I expect 5E will draw a lot of its audience from PF and OSR fans who play those games for what might be called 'ancillary' reasons--support, popularity, etc.
I played 3.x for a LONG time because it was popular and it was easy to get people to play it. And I'll be honest, I hate the level of rules in it, I think it is wonky in a lot of ways, and especially think that it is too much work to GM.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;757227I think that depends on why they're playing those games. I expect 5E will draw a lot of its audience from PF and OSR fans who play those games for what might be called 'ancillary' reasons--support, popularity, etc.
As I've theorized elsewhere, the D&D family of games currently has three major 'tentpoles' or polarities--Exploration-focused (OD&D), Character Building-focused (3.5/PF) and Tactical Combat-focused (4E)--and other versions of the game tend to land in the middle area bounded by those three. 5E is placing itself squarely in the middle.
Folks who play OSR games for the heavy exploration focus will probably stick with those, but those who just want something lighter than the other two tentpoles and don't care about logistical details and the nitty-gritty of dungeon/hexcrawl exploration may adopt 5E, especially if it's well-supported and popular. Similarly, PF fans may move towards it if they want something lighter, and just start using their Adventure Paths with 5E rules.
4E's audience (which I count myself as part of--I do actually like the game and a lot of what it tried to do) will probably not switch altogether; the audience has been trimmed down to those who appreciate the game for what it is, and 5E isn't trying to be the same thing. But they may adopt the game as an alternative or something that does different things.
And that's the other thing that I think may help--less of a 'One True Game' approach and more of a 'modern system that looks and feels like D&D' that people can use as part of their library. I know I've been looking for a 'cleaned-up, smoother, more flexible 2E' for a few years now, even after coming around to 4E's virtues, and 5E appears to have the potential to fill that niche. One thing where the Pundit and I actually agree (I think) is that WotC may be targeting 5E as 'everyone's second-favorite D&D'.
Well, they're subcontracting the adventures--AFAIK, the Starter Set is by Rich Baker and the first adventure path by Kobold Press. :) As for giving away the rules, in Paizo's case, that's making a virtue of necessity--the OGL means that any mechanical stuff they create that hooks heavily into their basic rules has to be Open in turn.
You're pretty spot on in my opinion. I've been looking for is a toolkit game like FantasyCraft that I could configure into a modern 2e with dashes of 3e. Looks to me 5e is right on target.
Quote from: Marleycat;757220What's funny about the situation is that this site is having the most balanced discussion about the game between ENWorld, TBP and the WotC boards and here.
I almost think it may be for the best that the primary battlefield of the latest edition war seems to be out here in the (relative) boonies.
I think the 2nd favourite version call pretty much nails it and I think that is a winning approach because it will also have the benefit of being the 'official' version and theoretically the one supported by the most and highest quality products.
Despite having had a lot of fun with non WOTC games since the release of the execrable 4E (LotFP, SWN, PF) I have missed walking into the game store and checking out the D&D shelf.
I think there is an undercurrent of people looking forward to unifying under the big tent. Not everyone of course and as always the most strident are loud and proud on the message boards, but I suspect that 5E will grab a fair bit of market share from 4E, PF, 3E and the OSR as one of the games they will play (or at least purchase).
Quote from: LibraryLass;757231I almost think it may be for the best that the primary battlefield of the latest edition war seems to be out here in the (relative) boonies.
Not sure I agree but it is nice that we have a place where anyone on the spectrum (OSR-----4e) can talk no holds barred no passive-agresss,ive sniping (because it's right upfront) or clique popularity stuff.. Yes the site is on the Wild West side but at least it's fun and it's too bad so many are missing out.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;757227I think that depends on why they're playing those games. I expect 5E will draw a lot of its audience from PF and OSR fans who play those games for what might be called 'ancillary' reasons--support, popularity, etc.
I'm definitely playing in a Pathfinder game because it's pretty hard to find much else around here... except 4e and I'm not going there. So it's a compromise, there are dozens of games I'd rather be playing.
If the group jumps on 5e... well, I hope that I'll like it more than 3e/Pathfinder... certainly more than 4e. Under this GM at least. So that could be a good thing.
Running stuff however... I won't touch Pathfinder and I'm waiting on 5e to exist before I even consider running it. Meanwhile, plenty of great games.
So I'm firmly in the OP's 2-3 grouping.
Quote from: Saplatt;757217I think there are probably six categories of detractors:
1. Roleplaying Game Systems Experts who feel that 4es biggest failure was that IT DIDN'T GO FAR ENOUGH in distancing itself from previous editions of the game and are upset that WotC didn't hire them as consultants for 5e.
2. Butthurt 4e fans who are upset that they lost the Edition Wars and want to see 5e strangled in the cradle, or otherwise out-bomb 4e, so that they'll have someone lower on the failure ladder to piss on.
3. Butthurt 3e fans who are still suffering PTSD from 4e, most of whom have sworn allegiance to the One True Paizo Golem God and who will never, ever forgive WotC for their pain.
4. Long-lost fans of previous editions who are satisfied with their system and too cheap to buy a new one or too old and mentally challenged to be bothered with learning new rules, even if they are mostly the same as the old ones.
5. People who have a personal grudge against members or consultants of the WotC 5e team, for reasons that have nothing to do with the system.
6. Then, and only then, those who just don't give a damn and never will.
I think I'm
Category 8 then--"Those who just don't give a damn, but
might--still undecided"
I don't play typically play fantasy RPGs, but maybe 5e will be a good jumping on point, who knows. I tried 4e and it didn't really do much for me, and I've played ADnD a few times. My friend recently lamented that no one ever let her play DnD with them growing up so she never tried it. So maybe I'll do my first fantasy game with her. 5e will probably be a good place to start.
I will say this--I went from not very interested to greatly intrigued upon finding out the chargen stuff was all free!
Quote from: Saplatt;757217I think there are probably six categories of detractors:
1. Roleplaying Game Systems Experts who feel that 4es biggest failure was that IT DIDN'T GO FAR ENOUGH in distancing itself from previous editions of the game and are upset that WotC didn't hire them as consultants for 5e.
2. Butthurt 4e fans who are upset that they lost the Edition Wars and want to see 5e strangled in the cradle, or otherwise out-bomb 4e, so that they'll have someone lower on the failure ladder to piss on.
3. Butthurt 3e fans who are still suffering PTSD from 4e, most of whom have sworn allegiance to the One True Paizo Golem God and who will never, ever forgive WotC for their pain.
4. Long-lost fans of previous editions who are satisfied with their system and too cheap to buy a new one or too old and mentally challenged to be bothered with learning new rules, even if they are mostly the same as the old ones.
5. People who have a personal grudge against members or consultants of the WotC 5e team, for reasons that have nothing to do with the system.
6. Then, and only then, those who just don't give a damn and never will.
That's a damn good summary. And as others have pointed out, at least here people are kinda, sorta honest about which of the groups they fall into. And if they aren't, you can call them on their bullshit. The disingenuous remarks by the detractors on other forums are almost comical.
Quote from: JeremyR;757216Anyway, I think the big problem with 5e is apathy. There seem to be some people excited for it, but most seem largely "meh".
I think that general apathy is an edition thing, not a 5e thing. I'd love to see data from whatever HS and college gamers exist and see how much of the apathy is a generational thing too.
Quote from: Marleycat;757220What's funny about the situation is that this site is having the most balanced discussion about the game between ENWorld, TBP and the WotC boards and here.
Any links to particularly psycho threads?
Quote from: Mr. Kent;757249I don't play typically play fantasy RPGs, but maybe 5e will be a good jumping on point, who knows.
With the Basic PDF for free, it will be easy to see what 5e has to offer (just like with any quickstart). My big hope - and I know its beyond a long shot - is that WotC gives us 5e Star Frontiers.
I'd love to write for a Living Star Frontiers campaign. That would be a blast and the game has been fallow for so long that it might generate some real excitement.
Quote from: Spinachcat;757260Any links to particularly psycho threads?
Pretty much every 5E thread on the RPGsite gets immediately thread-crapped by a half-dozen regulars who are textbook:
Quote1. Roleplaying Game Systems Experts who feel that 4es biggest failure was that IT DIDN’T GO FAR ENOUGH in distancing itself from previous editions of the game and are upset that WotC didn’t hire them as consultants for 5e.
2. Butthurt 4e fans who are upset that they lost the Edition Wars and want to see 5e strangled in the cradle, or otherwise out-bomb 4e, so that they’ll have someone lower on the failure ladder to piss on.
Quote from: Saplatt;7572174. Long-lost fans of previous editions who are satisfied with their system and too cheap to buy a new one or too old and mentally challenged to be bothered with learning new rules, even if they are mostly the same as the old ones.
(my bolding)
So you're just feeling the need to insult folks who are happy with their gaming and don't see any reason to chase after the new hotness?... sounds like, "If you're not with us, you're against us!"
That's real inviting of ya!
@SpinachCat, I will try and linksie you when I have computer access tomorrow but you know how hard that is concerning TBP because of the climate and insta permabans. They try to bury any real discussion there if it's not clique approved.
Quote from: Simlasa;757264(my bolding)
So you're just feeling the need to insult folks who are happy with their gaming and don't see any reason to chase after the new hotness?... sounds like, "If you're not with us, you're against us!"
That's real inviting of ya!
I agree. That sir is what is known as
trolling. It's fun you should try it sometime.:)
Quote from: Marleycat;757239Not sure I agree but it is nice that we have a place where anyone on the spectrum (OSR-----4e) can talk no holds barred no passive-aggressive sniping (because it's right upfront) or clique popularity stuff..
I'm reminded of Bill Cosby's take on cocaine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWzceMfsRbU).
Quote from: Marleycat;757282@SpinachCat, I will try and linksie you when I have computer access tomorrow but you know how hard that is concerning TBP because of the climate and insta permabans. They try to bury any real discussion there if it's not clique approved.
Thank you!
I expect RPG.net to be nutball, but how is ENworld and WotC discussion going? I pop over there irregularly and haven't seen a big 5e blowout.
Quote from: Spinachcat;757260My big hope - and I know its beyond a long shot - is that WotC gives us 5e Star Frontiers.
I'd love to write for a Living Star Frontiers campaign. That would be a blast and the game has been fallow for so long that it might generate some real excitement.
I'd be so down for all of this
My god...D&D...its full of stars!
Guys, you already have D&D in Space, its called Stars Without Number and Hulks & Horrors.
Quote from: Spinachcat;757260With the Basic PDF for free, it will be easy to see what 5e has to offer (just like with any quickstart). My big hope - and I know its beyond a long shot - is that WotC gives us 5e Star Frontiers.
I'd love to write for a Living Star Frontiers campaign. That would be a blast and the game has been fallow for so long that it might generate some real excitement.
Id love to see a new Star Frontiers. But. I know WOTC would fuck it up again as they did the last two and a half go-rounds. Same for Gamma World. And that is allmost certain to come out.
I doubt we'll see Buck Rogers which was in a way Star Frontiers retooled. Especially not with Loraine still causing Hasbro and WOTC indirect problems.
As for my outlook on Next. Playtest had alot of interesting elsments and some odd ones. The last few playtests really got my hopes up after the somewhat uninspiring start.
But. Unfortunately WOTCs record of mismanaging games means anything could go wrong between now and release. Mearls hasnt been exactly helping to keep hopes up either with some of his statements.
So all we can do is wait and see.
And yeah. Some of the 5e supporters are more than a little overblown. One or two in particular in near fanatic mode before the game is even released.
Quote from: languagegeek;757197You can read the gaming community working this stuff out back in early Dragon magazines. I don't think much progress has been made since.
Some random thoughts about the most vocal:
The arguing is more important than the argument. I hear the kids doing this all the time, or sports fans, or historians, or politicos...
A lot of people love D&D (their hockey team, their political party...) For some, they've sunk countless hours into the game, building a sort of personal relationship with it. To see a new version is to see someone else's D&D, that isn't quite how they'd do it. If the writers had only done X, it would be way better. Same thing happens in sports talk or political commentary or which Beatles' song is best.
For others, they seek community under the umbrella of the new thing. To see a new version is to see an opportunity to get involved with the upcoming new best thing. They are willing to overlook the not-quite-how-I'd-do-it parts to get in on the ground floor. In a similar way, some seek community under the old best thing and are willing to overlook aspets of their own games. At times these two clash in some sort of generational dominance thing (again, not a gaming-specific human trait.)
So we've got arguing to confirm one's relationship with the game, either personal or communal, or most likely a bit of both. The content of the debate is less important than the debate itself. Those on the "New thing" or "Old thing" side will argue for their position, and those on the "personal thing" will argue for the way they'd have done it. I don't know if this is good or bad, but it sure is human.
At the same time, there has been a good bit of rational debate as well as blatent trolling. So yeah, people.
This.
VS
Quote from: jeff37923;757318Guys, you already have D&D in Space, its called Stars Without Number and Hulks & Horrors.
Maybe
Stars Without Number will become an easier sell to modern players once 5e sets the industry standard back to the lighter side of rule expectations. One can hope.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;757227One thing where the Pundit and I actually agree (I think) is that WotC may be targeting 5E as 'everyone's second-favorite D&D'.
Hmm, I hadn't heard that yet. Possibly.
VS
Quote from: Saplatt;7572174. Long-lost fans of previous editions who are satisfied with their system and too cheap to buy a new one or too old and mentally challenged to be bothered with learning new rules, even if they are mostly the same as the old ones.
I know a lot of fans of previous editions of D&D who play them because they like them - even though they have money to buy new games and the mental ability to to learn them. Just like most American football fans I know don't switch to the far more popular Association football (aka soccer) even though Association football has many more fans than American football and they have the brainpower to learn the rules and the money to buy tickets.
Quote from: RandallS;757348I know a lot of fans of previous editions of D&D who play them because they like them - even though they have money to buy new games and the mental ability to to learn them. Just like most American football fans I know don't switch to the far more popular Association football (aka soccer) even though Association football has many more fans than American football and they have the brainpower to learn the rules and the money to buy tickets.
Soccer is more popular in the U.S. than football?
Quote from: Saplatt;757351Soccer is more popular in the U.S. than football?
I believe soccer may have overtaken everything but baseball in the US. Not certain though.
Quote from: Saplatt;757351Soccer is more popular in the U.S. than football?
In term of participation by children, yes. As a spectator sport? Not even close.
Quote from: Haffrung;757356In term of participation by children, yes. As a spectator sport? Not even close.
Yeah, it's not close at all. I like both (the Portland Timbers are my local soccer team), but even I have to admit that more than half the fans there are early 20ish hipsters who are only there for the profane chants and beer, and not for the game itself. I.e., I highly suspect they're fair weather fans because that's what's "in" currently. It's also not exactly an apples to apples re: buying tickets. A Timbers ticket is $35-$50. A Seahawks ticket is $300-$700
I'm in the camp of finding games I can DM successfully and provide tools to help me do so. I've largely admitted to myself that is going to be a game that has instant familiarity like D&D but is closer to a Basic model due to my time limits. I like 3.5 edition but it gives me problems creating higher level characters as a player, DMing it would overwhelm me.
5th edition is looking promising. I'll of course pick up the free Basic pdf. Because of the brand, I'll be able to check out supplements, tools, adventures, and expansion in physical copy even here in small town western NY. I miss being able to look at products and the ever decreasing selection of products at most brick & mortar stores depresses me. Just being able to peruse material will lead to impulse buys out of curiosity. If it builds off of that basic model, it will allow me to pick and choose what I want to add to the game in a modular format.
For that same reason, 4th edition didn't appeal to me. I was able to look at it and didn't have an instant familiarization or inspiration. 5th edition will not only allow me to peruse the game freely, a model I've almost come to expect now, it will allow me access to peruse physical products almost everywhere.
Yeah I hope the big three professional sports are enjoying the money now. Ticket prices to see the winning teams are a luxury item and with teams being a corporate brand instead of really having a local identity, the newer generations are going to be attracted to the sports they played, not the sports their grandfathers played.
Soccer though, would catch on a lot faster if there weren't ties. In the US, someone has to win, someone has to lose.
Quote from: Gunslinger;757363I miss being able to look at products and the ever decreasing selection of products at most brick & mortar stores depresses me. .
Same here. And I am near certain that RPG products in FLGS are doomed. Just look at when they announced the price of the D&D books, and the overwhelming majority of people said they are buying from Amazon at a discount. FLGS will die because no one wants to support their FLGS anymore. And that's really sad.
Quote from: Haffrung;757356In term of participation by children, yes. As a spectator sport? Not even close.
Without looking at a chart, I could probably name at least 50 members of the Denver Broncos and at least a half-dozen from each of the other 31 franchises (and twice that many from AFC West teams).
I don't follow college football as much, but I'm sure I could tell you the nicknames for at least 60 schools and what conference they play in.
The only soccer players I could name are Pele (who I think retired a long time ago) and some guy named Beckem or something like that. I think Colorado's professional soccer team is called "The Rapids." That's the only one I can think of.
I'm pretty sure I've never watched a college or professional soccer game from start to finish. Ever. Other than the Monty Python skit with the German philosophers vs. the Greeks.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;757365Same here. And I am near certain that RPG products in FLGS are doomed. Just look at when they announced the price of the D&D books, and the overwhelming majority of people said they are buying from Amazon at a discount. FLGS will die because no one wants to support their FLGS anymore. And that's really sad.
It is. Places like Crazy Egor's in Rochester, NY (once mentioned in the pages of Dragon Magazine) are gone. Places me and my friends would make pilgrimages to. Whenever I travel, I still seek out RPG stores. My last trip to Game Empires in Pasadena let me down. Not only a smaller section for RPGs but even less of a selection for used RPGs. I had better luck living in Hawaii. The best I've seen in a while was a store in Chicago, which actually stocked POD games and small independent publishers. It's where I picked up my LotFP boxed set while balancing the merits of purchasing products like LL AEC, ICONS, or DCC. I could've been there for hours.
Quote from: Bill;757353I believe soccer may have overtaken everything but baseball in the US. Not certain though.
No. NFL football is more popular by miles. The sport in the most trouble is baseball because the other three sports are taking the new generation players and interest for multiple reasons. Soccer in the US is number 4-5 but likely will go up within the next 20-30 years because of demographic changes and immigration. It doesn't affect the NFL though given it's popular with females and hispanics.
Quote from: CRKrueger;757364Yeah I hope the big three professional sports are enjoying the money now. Ticket prices to see the winning teams are a luxury item and with teams being a corporate brand instead of really having a local identity, the newer generations are going to be attracted to the sports they played, not the sports their grandfathers played.
I'm a huge giant College and Pro American Football fan and I've never played American Football in my life. I've also only gone to maybe 2 games in person. And hell, I don't really like going to the games. You get a superior viewing experience watching it on TV.
People are fans of the sports that have a culture of fans. It builds on itself, I'm a Georgia Bulldogs fan, why? Because I live in Athens, Georgia, my dad was a UGA fan, my brothers and uncles are UGA fans, my friends are UGA fans.
To a large degree, the sports you are fans of are largely regional and cultural, and has nothing to do with whether you've played the sport or not. (Hell, most of the fans I know have never played ANY sport other than pickup games).
Quote from: Emperor Norton;757387People are fans of the sports that have a culture of fans. It builds on itself, I'm a Georgia Bulldogs fan, why? Because I live in Athens, Georgia, my dad was a UGA fan, my brothers and uncles are UGA fans, my friends are UGA fans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m6Sw26gUQo
A song with lyrics that will make you weep.
Seems like there are two topics in these threads:
- Why won't you buy and play 5E?
- Don't you know that you have to, to support our hobby?
So, my answers.
- I haven't bought a TSR/WOTC/Hasbro D&D product since 1st ed AD&D. Why would I start now? I already own and play games that I love. That fill the fantasy sword & sorcery class-based rpg niche. I don't buy a car unless I need a new car. And I don't need a new car.
- Our hobby has branched out into a number of little sub-groups. Many of them are self-sufficient. Many produce their own materials, either for sale or given away at no charge. In fact, there are so many different items published or self-published in a year that I would find it very, very difficult to be at all even mildly curious about them all, let alone support these creators with my money. I certainly wouldn't be able to use so many products.
If I want to play rpgs, then I just have to convince others in my circle of friends/acquaintances to play. The materials are already out there. Hasbro doesn't need my money. And whether they can sell yet another game system with the label "D&D" on it, or not, doesn't really impact me. Will there always be rpg materials available? Will enough people hear about them to be interested?
Aren't there more important things in life to be worried about?
I don't care if you play rpgs or which ones you play. But don't take my disinterest as some kind of passive-aggressive attack on you, personally. If something comes along that purports to present something different, and that particular twist seems like something I might like, and if I happen to be in the market for trying a new game, then, if I feel it's reasonably priced, and the reviews look good, I might join a group that's playing it, and give it a spin. But it's a long, long process before you'll get any money out of me.
Football in the U.S. is huge. Nothing in television comes close. Look at Nielsen 2013 results:
http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/newswire/2013/tops-of-2013-tv-and-social-media.html
TOP TV PROGRAMS OF 2013 - SINGLE TELECAST
Rank Telecast Originator Date Aired Persons 2+ Rating Average # of Viewers
1 SUPER BOWL XLVII CBS 02/03/2013 37.6 108,693,000
2 SUPER BOWL XLVII-DELAY CBS 02/03/2013 36.8 106,556,000
3 SUPER BOWL XLVII PST-GAME CBS 02/03/2013 21.9 63,260,000
4 SUPER BOWL KICK-OFF CBS 02/03/2013 21.8 63,003,000
5 AFC CHAMPIONSHIP ON CBS CBS 01/20/2013 16.5 47,707,000
6 FOX NFC CHAMPIONSHIP FOX 01/20/2013 14.5 41,974,000
7 THE OSCARS ABC 02/24/2013 14.0 40,376,000
8 FOX NFC WILDCARD GAME FOX 01/06/2013 13.2 38,088,000
9 AFC DIVISIONAL PLAYOFF-SU CBS 01/13/2013 13.0 37,657,000
10 AFC DIVISIONAL PLAYOFF-SA CBS 01/12/2013 12.2 35,274,000
TOP 10 PRIMETIME TV PROGRAMS OF 2013 - REGULARLY SCHEDULED
Rank Program Originator Persons 2+ Rating Average # of Viewers
1 NBC SUNDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL NBC 7.4 21,734,000
2 SUNDAY NIGHT NFL PRE-KICK NBC 5.3 15,708,000
3 THE OT FOX 5.0 14,753,000
4 NCIS CBS 5.0 14,692,000
5 DANCING WITH THE STARS ABC 4.7 13,862,000
6 NFL REGULAR SEASON L ESPN 4.6 13,446,000
7 AMERICAN IDOL-WEDNESDAY FOX 4.6 13,384,000
8 BIG BANG THEORY, THE CBS 4.5 13,217,000
9 AMERICAN IDOL-THURSDAY FOX 4.5 13,136,000
10 DANCING W/STARS RESULTS ABC 4.5 12,890,000
Quote from: Baron;757398Seems like there are two topics in these threads:
- Why won't you buy and play 5E?
The answer you give the question is perfectly reasonable. And I haven't seen anyone say it isn't. A lot of people are happy with an RPG they already have.
What the disputes are about is people who ostensibly
are open to playing and buying 5E, who offer up marginal reasons why it isn't what they need, or what they wanted WotC to make, so now it's completely off the table. Anyone who has followed the development at all (or who even approaches the subject with honesty and common sense) realizes that an edition of D&D published today has to cater to a diverse fanbase, including many players who only got into the hobby in the last 10 years. 5E will have to include elements that support varied styles of play: low power, high power, grid combat, theatre of the mind, etc.. It will have to be familiar and comfortable to long-time and lapsed players, or it will be another 4E. It will also need to include some innovation - otherwise, why not simply reprint an older edition?
Now, some people will find these compromises and innovations unappealing. Which is fine. But there are also folks out there who never had any intention of accepting compromises (usually because they want 5E to fail, for various reason). So they're not really interested in honest discussion about the game. It's just tribal edition warring, under the guise of "I was open to 5E and I really wanted WotC to succeed, but..."
Quote from: Baron;757398- Don't you know that you have to, to support our hobby?
Has anyone said that on this forum?
My interest in 5e will be determined by future products. If WotC starts a supplement treadmill, I don't see a problem, if they continue produce quality products which has nothing to do with player-side rules. In fact, I hope the game produces a supplement treadmill, but designed in a way the books can be ignored if desired. Some players want more options, give them the choice.
Quote from: Spinachcat;757304Thank you!
I expect RPG.net to be nutball, but how is ENworld and WotC discussion going? I pop over there irregularly and haven't seen a big 5e blowout.
WotC boards have the most trolling and outright edition warring going on because it's set up like RPG.net without the +/- minus system or subforums of ENWorld at the start of July it will be set up like ENWorld and there will be alot of bannings.
EnWorld is just wierd it's kind of like RPGnet in that there is a lot of code speak going on and they have a tendency to get stuck in the mutinea (sp) like this thread on RPG.net....http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?728169-Starter-Set-Excerpt-2-Equipment (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?728169-Starter-Set-Excerpt-2-Equipment) it's not edition warring at all just that some are completely clueless and off track about what 5e is actually about.
It's like very few are catching on that 5e is going to be a configurable game to approximate the other editions not actually be compatible in the classic sense most times.
That equipment thread is mind-boggling.
I just want to be able to buy "meat comma chunk ofs" and I'll be happy.
For some reason we always said items in the buy list this way if it had a comma in it. It just kind of stuck after awhile, which is why in my games we always carried pole comma 10 foots around.
Quote from: One Horse Town;757424That equipment thread is mind-boggling.
Equipment lists are always problematic and have been argued about for ages. Ugh, I remember the "history buff" guys who went on and on about why 1e gear should have cost more/less whatever way back when.
Personally, I only use gold coins in my OD&D games. I can't care about tracking 3 different kinds of currency.
Quote from: Spinachcat;757441Equipment lists are always problematic and have been argued about for ages. Ugh, I remember the "history buff" guys who went on and on about why 1e gear should have cost more/less whatever way back when.
Personally, I only use gold coins in my OD&D games. I can't care about tracking 3 different kinds of currency.
Yep. I get that 'Ale - 3cp' has a legacy. But really, who would squawk if that stuff was removed? Who really feels it has to be there to be D&D?
Quote from: Baron;757398Seems like there are two topics in these threads:
- Why won't you buy and play 5E?
- Don't you know that you have to, to support our hobby?
So, my answers.
- I haven't bought a TSR/WOTC/Hasbro D&D product since 1st ed AD&D. Why would I start now? I already own and play games that I love. That fill the fantasy sword & sorcery class-based rpg niche. I don't buy a car unless I need a new car. And I don't need a new car.
- Our hobby has branched out into a number of little sub-groups. Many of them are self-sufficient. Many produce their own materials, either for sale or given away at no charge. In fact, there are so many different items published or self-published in a year that I would find it very, very difficult to be at all even mildly curious about them all, let alone support these creators with my money. I certainly wouldn't be able to use so many products.
If I want to play rpgs, then I just have to convince others in my circle of friends/acquaintances to play. The materials are already out there. Hasbro doesn't need my money. And whether they can sell yet another game system with the label "D&D" on it, or not, doesn't really impact me. Will there always be rpg materials available? Will enough people hear about them to be interested?
Aren't there more important things in life to be worried about?
I don't care if you play rpgs or which ones you play. But don't take my disinterest as some kind of passive-aggressive attack on you, personally. If something comes along that purports to present something different, and that particular twist seems like something I might like, and if I happen to be in the market for trying a new game, then, if I feel it's reasonably priced, and the reviews look good, I might join a group that's playing it, and give it a spin. But it's a long, long process before you'll get any money out of me.
More important things to worry about? You know we're communicating in a tabletop RPG forum on the internet, right?
The passive/aggressive assumption is what I was trying to identify and address. One group shouldn't feel attacked by another.
Allow me to suggest some middle ground. 5e lovers will stop demanding why non-5e lovers won't buy/play/love the new D&D while non-5e lovers stop putting down (TrollCrapFlaming?) the 5e lovers and their enthusiasm.
My idea of "support" is to not denigrate 5e at every opportunity. No money has to change hands, no one is being forced to try it out, let alone approve.
VSp.s. Enough with the sports, please! Analogy is one thing, but now it's time to find a new thread for football vs. soccer vs. whatever.
Quote from: Haffrung;757442Yep. I get that 'Ale - 3cp' has a legacy. But really, who would squawk if that stuff was removed? Who really feels it has to be there to be D&D?
You already know who....seriously it's all a matter of degree and some love details/systems to the nth detail and some just handwave stuff. It's all DnD to me though. I like using the Silver standard just to make gold and platinum really standout.
Quote from: Haffrung;757442Yep. I get that 'Ale - 3cp' has a legacy. But really, who would squawk if that stuff was removed? Who really feels it has to be there to be D&D?
From my observations, there does seem to be a segment of the fanbase (often, but not always, part of the Old School) that wants to focus on 'gritty, low-powered fantasy' where a few coppers can really be important. I don't know how big they are, or if it's just a few vocal people. I remember the run up to Star Wars Saga Edition on the WotC forums, when people got so upset about the lack of Profession skill rules and tech-building details that you'd think they wanted to play Nute Gunray. :)
The equipment lists make a lot of sense if you're emphasizing logistics, puzzle-solving and the like--you've got to careful balance usefulness, cost, carrying capacity and other factors. However, that's a fairly extreme pole of D&D gaming. And the Old School feel of this equipment list is arguably undercut by having things like healing potions on it. :)
WotC has said that the equipment buying system for starting PCs is mostly optional, and that most players will be able to just take their Background and one of their Class equipment packages, add them together, and go. I'm just fine with this. But then, I really can do with a minimalist approach to equipment and accounting in gaming. I've had a soft spot for abstracted wealth systems ever since I read the design essay on
Swordbearer's wealth system in
Heroic Worlds.
I fully expect that sort of thing in the game - especially a bloody starter set.
It's to get things going. The argument that this stuff is meaningless at 3rd level or whatever is just crap play-style biases masquerading as genuine critique.
Like much of the criticisms i'm seeing (more at other places, true) it's just sour-grapes that 5e is even existing and thus a happy continuation of the cycle of life that is edition wars.
Quote from: One Horse Town;757455It's to get things going. The argument that this stuff is meaningless at 3rd level or whatever is just crap play-style biases masquerading as genuine critique.
I suspect the "real" criticism is the idea of paying for room/board at all.
Quote from: Haffrung;757411Has anyone said that on this forum?
I'm not sure that anyone has said...
Quote from: Haffrung;757411"I was open to 5E and I really wanted WotC to succeed, but..."
..but that doesn't stop the spin.
Quote from: Marleycat;757447I like using the Silver standard just to make gold and platinum really standout.
I do that in Runequest and Warhammer. It's a good method, but D&D, for me it's all about the gold.
I'll probs buy the 5th ed PHB, DM guide and Monster manual for old times sake.
If it impresses I might even try to start an RPG group to run it for.
Even if I don't run it it'll be a fun read and worth buying those 3 books just for that.
The RPG hobby is comparatively cheap to other hobbies anyway, so to me throwing some money at some RPG books I may never run isn't really a big deal.
Interestingly, the last version of official DnD I bought was 2nd ed ADnD many years ago.
I'd moved away from DnD by the time 3rd Ed came out and by the time I decided to give it a go again, PF seemed to be well supported and played.
4th Ed dnD:
I never bought into 4th Ed for various reasons which I won't bother getting into in detail this thread.
Suffice to say it wasn't to my taste.
Regarding SWN:
It'd be great to see Stars Without Number become more popular as a result of 5th Ed, as I really like the SWN system and it sounds like it could have a lot of compatibility with 5th Ed as a Scifi hack of DnD.
Quote from: VengerSatanis;757192...
As a community, we can be critical while still being supportive; we can like what we like while understanding those who don't. I propose we approach further discussion consciously. Hopefully, that's not too much to ask.
It's not. I can get ranty McRanterson on issues. I am trying to be more constructive; answering questions and entering discussions with more sincerity and less troll/rant/comedian shenanigans. I may have went a tad too far on the 5e debate. :o
Personally, I'm waiting for the Starter Box + Basic PDF and actually running it with a group before I make any more judgments. Frankly, it's the only real fair shake to give it at this juncture. I am impressed with what we know thus far, and I think WOTC deserves a few of my $ for the effort.
Quote from: Gunslinger;757371I had better luck living in Hawaii. The best I've seen in a while was a store in Chicago, which actually stocked POD games and small independent publishers. It's where I picked up my LotFP boxed set while balancing the merits of purchasing products like LL AEC, ICONS, or DCC. I could've been there for hours.
Was it Games Plus in Evanston, by any chance?
Lord Hobie
Quote from: languagegeek;757197A lot of people love D&D (their hockey team, their political party...) For some, they've sunk countless hours into the game, building a sort of personal relationship with it. To see a new version is to see someone else's D&D, that isn't quite how they'd do it. If the writers had only done X, it would be way better. Same thing happens in sports talk or political commentary or which Beatles' song is best.
It's such a strong trope I included it in one of my Gaming Geek Fallacies: My Game Is Great, Your Game Sucks (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/09/ggf-4.html).
Where the 5e debate stands out head and shoulders over other nonsensical edition wars is that people are fighting to the death over a ruleset that
has yet to be released.
Count me as someone who doesn't care. I've got so many problems right now I can't get excited over a new version of AD&D. And if I spend money on games there are at least three other titles I want to purchase before considering AD&D.
Quote from: Ravenswing;757547It's such a strong trope I included it in one of my Gaming Geek Fallacies: My Game Is Great, Your Game Sucks (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/09/ggf-4.html).
Where the 5e debate stands out head and shoulders over other nonsensical edition wars is that people are fighting to the death over a ruleset that has yet to be released.
Remember to factor in that I haven't bought anything Dnd by WotC for 5-6 years at best. And barely anything else is the last 3-4 years. So 5e is the first time in years that I'm purposely budgeting a RPG in again.
Quote from: Lord Hobie;757546Was it Games Plus in Evanston, by any chance?
Lord Hobie
It was. Great store, looking forward to making my annual pilgrimage there when I'm out that way.
Quote from: Ravenswing;757547It's such a strong trope I included it in one of my Gaming Geek Fallacies: My Game Is Great, Your Game Sucks (http://ravenswing59.blogspot.com/2013/09/ggf-4.html).
Where the 5e debate stands out head and shoulders over other nonsensical edition wars is that people are fighting to the death over a ruleset that has yet to be released.
My wife and I just started watching Orange is the New Black last night. "It's tribal, not racist."
Thankfully, many gamers realize that RPG favoritism and preference are subjective.
VS
Quote from: trechriron;757515It's not. I can get ranty McRanterson on issues. I am trying to be more constructive; answering questions and entering discussions with more sincerity and less troll/rant/comedian shenanigans. I may have went a tad too far on the 5e debate. :o
Personally, I'm waiting for the Starter Box + Basic PDF and actually running it with a group before I make any more judgments. Frankly, it's the only real fair shake to give it at this juncture. I am impressed with what we know thus far, and I think WOTC deserves a few of my $ for the effort.
Ranting happens. I do it myself. And some things are worth ranting about. I just felt that pounding the table about the enthusiasm gap was counter-productive. So, I stopped doing it and blogged instead.
VS
Quote from: Ravenswing;757547Where the 5e debate stands out head and shoulders over other nonsensical edition wars is that people are fighting to the death over a ruleset that has yet to be released.[/COLOR]
Part of that is due to the playtest packet. Assuming WOTC didnt lie, then the finished game should retain most of the elements that were in the playtest packet.
Quote from: Bill;757353I believe soccer may have overtaken everything but baseball in the US. Not certain though.
Definitely false. Not close to MLB and the NFL's numbers. And we're omitting NASCAR, as well.
I have read articles over the past few years, however, that show that the MLS has surpassed the NBA and the NHL in terms of attendance levels and TV ratings. The sport is making strides in the US, but there is a realistic cap that it will eventually face (and I'm speaking as an MLS fan, and a Sounders season ticket holder for the past 5 years).
Quote from: Sacrosanct;757362I like both (the Portland Timbers are my local soccer team), but even I have to admit that more than half the fans there are early 20ish hipsters who are only there for the profane chants and beer, and not for the game itself. I.e., I highly suspect they're fair weather fans because that's what's "in" currently.
True in just about any sport. Band-wagon jumpers will latch on to any 'winner' and ride out the fad.
Hell, that's more a sign of the MLS having a cultural impact, and 'making it' as a sport - the fact that it can attract the fair-weather fans, like baseball and football.
But then, you are talking about Timbers' supporters, so perhaps those numbers are just accurate to your region. ;)
Quote from: Marleycat;757378No. NFL football is more popular by miles. The sport in the most trouble is baseball because the other three sports are taking the new generation players and interest for multiple reasons. Soccer in the US is number 4-5 but likely will go up within the next 20-30 years because of demographic changes and immigration. It doesn't affect the NFL though given it's popular with females and hispanics.
I can't stand foot-to-ball or foot-to-ball fans (I haven't watched many games, but I prefer watching american football), but it's practically a fucking religion over here, complete with england vs scotland tribal wars as nasty as any "if the fighter doesn't have d8 hit points then it's not D&D and you should feel bad" conflicts. And the world cup is on at the moment! SOS. Please send Nintendo, Dr Pepper and roleplaying books.
Anyway.
I've pre-ordered the books, from Amazon. And it's from Amazon because there isn't a roleplaying shop in this city, and because when they come out, I want to just get them, not have to make "pick up the books I bought" a special mission objective.
Quote from: Ladybird;757643complete with england vs scotland tribal wars as nasty as any "if the fighter doesn't have d8 hit points then it's not D&D and you should feel bad" conflicts.
Dude, seriously? When's the last time a grognard beat someone to death or ransacked a city street setting stuff on fire?
You guys are starting to satirize
yourselves.
Quote from: CRKrueger;757644Dude, seriously? When's the last time a grognard beat someone to death or ransacked a city street setting stuff on fire?
You guys are starting to satirize yourselves.
Old School Fighter vs 4e Fighter are
literally as bad as Rough Wooing.
Quote from: CRKrueger;757644Dude, seriously? When's the last time a grognard beat someone to death or ransacked a city street setting stuff on fire?
You guys are starting to satirize yourselves.
About 1990 i reckon. We only riot about police brutality these days. The Italians and Polish are the hooligans now.
All this sport talk is super and that, but fuck all to do with RPGs.
Quote from: Baron;757398Seems like there are two topics in these threads:
- Why won't you buy and play 5E?
- Don't you know that you have to, to support our hobby?
So, my answers.
- I haven't bought a TSR/WOTC/Hasbro D&D product since 1st ed AD&D. Why would I start now? I already own and play games that I love. That fill the fantasy sword & sorcery class-based rpg niche. I don't buy a car unless I need a new car. And I don't need a new car.
This. I am happy to support WotC when they publish for the game I am going to play (1E); I bought most of the reprints. But I've been playing 1E for decades and it continues to give me what I want out of my gaming.
A successful current edition of D&D is good for the hobby, so I hope it succeeds in the abstract. But when I buy things the criteria is: 1A) is it good? and 1B) how much tweaking do I have to do to use it? Currently, there is enough good material produced specifically for 1E/OSRIC that I don't even have to really buy material for any other retro-clones, even if the tweaking would be minimal. I still buy some material for other retro-clones if it is excellent.
I presume that 5E materials would be even farther down my list for gaming dollars.
Quote from: K Peterson;757642Definitely false. Not close to MLB and the NFL's numbers. And we're omitting NASCAR, as well.
I have read articles over the past few years, however, that show that the MLS has surpassed the NBA and the NHL in terms of attendance levels and TV ratings. The sport is making strides in the US, but there is a realistic cap that it will eventually face (and I'm speaking as an MLS fan, and a Sounders season ticket holder for the past 5 years).
True in just about any sport. Band-wagon jumpers will latch on to any 'winner' and ride out the fad.
Hell, that's more a sign of the MLS having a cultural impact, and 'making it' as a sport - the fact that it can attract the fair-weather fans, like baseball and football.
But then, you are talking about Timbers' supporters, so perhaps those numbers are just accurate to your region. ;)
Spectators; I assumed soccer was behind. But I am reasonably sure more young people are playing soccer now.
Quote from: VengerSatanis;7571921. So, we've got people who are loving the promise of 5e and what it represents.
2. People who are tentatively optimistic but skeptical.
3. Those who just don't care.
4. Those who think 5e is doing far too little, too late and are unhappy about one thing or another.
5. A few cranks who absolutely loath 5e and what it represents.
6. 5e lovers who are sick and tired of what they perceive to be 5e hating trolls.
7. Those disenchanted by what they've seen of 5e who just want the 5e lovers to shut up already.
8. Cautious, intrigued skeptics who feel harassed or threatened by all the 5e love
9. Adults who don't play products edited and developed for 10 year olds and mad mommies.
10. People who don't buy games from companies where the ultimate decision about content is made by non-gamers.
Quote from: Ghost;7576689. Adults who don't play products edited and developed for 10 year olds and mad mommies.
10. People who don't buy games from companies where the ultimate decision about content is made by non-gamers.
Are there going to be mad mommies in the 5e Monster Manual?
VS