Quote from: jibbajibba;800744So a great character but in the wrong game if you needed a murder hobo

Yes, essentially. But he also had solid DEX, too. In essence I was cheating "Ultimate Masters: Chargen"; I rolled too high on 3d6 for DEX. And after I rolled for my Rogue class ahead of time as well. Completely unfair meddling by fate. Deliberately avoiding DEX skills was my concession to make things harder.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800733Now I have a challenge for everyone here for the 5e NPC topic. Make a combat viable (or for green character builders: survivable) "Adventure League" compliant character with DEX 8. You may spend your 27 points elsewhere on the other stats, but not DEX. Now the easy thing is choose a +2 DEX race and build from there (which I already did, and I'm testing all of you people on easy mode).

Moderate challenge mode is DEX 7, then go point buy build from there.

Hard challenge mode is DEX 5, then go point buy build from there.

Let's see if you can find something I haven't.

I'll start, as I proposed the challenge, then I will do a weapon breakdown and why creating a common bandit or thug skirmisher ends up resenting Sneak Attack:

First, no points in DEX. I want to get high STR & CON for a Rogue bruiser. Mt. Dwarf is easiest point-wise for this, with +2 CON and +2 STR. The remainder drops into CHA to bully and trick, and WIS to be perceptive.

STR 7 pts for 14, DEX 0 pts for 8, CON 7 pts for 14, INT 2 pts for 10, WIS 4 pts for 12, CHA 7 pts for 14

Mountain Dwarf Rogue, Soldier
Lvl 1, Prof +2. Saves: DEX, INT. Alg: ??
HD: d8. HP: 11. AC: 13. Spd: 25'.

STR 16 (3), DEX 8 (-1), CON 16 (3), INT 10 (0), WIS 12 (1), CHA 14 (2)

Race: CON +2. Spd 25'. Darkvision 60'. Resilience - Adv save v. poison & Resist poison dmg. Dwarf Weapons - battle axe, hand axe, throw hammer, war hammer. Artisan Tool - 1x of Mason, Stonecutting, or Brewer.
sub-race: STR +2. Dwarf Armor - lt. & md. armor.

Lang: common, dwarf.

Next I want skills that fit the common archetype. I can net two wild card skills by mimicking Soldier's skill benefit, useful if I really care about something unavailable, like Survival.

Athletics gets me +7 to Shove or Grab targets, which is great with allies and very thematic. Intimidate similarly is thematic and combat useful. Solid CHA let's me net the rest and fulfills the alluring bandit/thug mystique.

Skill: Athletics (exp, bkrd) +7, Deception +4, Insight/Survival +3, Intimidate (exp, bkrd) +6, Perception +3, Persuasion +4.

Class: Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant.

Armor: Light, Medium (race).
Weapon: all Simple. Longsword, Rapier, S. Sword, Hand Xbow. (race) - Hand Axe, Battleaxe, Throw Hammer, Warhammer.
Tools: Thieves', Masons' (race), Game Set (bkrd), Vehicles Land (bkrd).

Background: Soldier. Specialty: Skirmisher. Feature: Military Rank.
Pers: stare down. Ideal: nationalism. Bond: band of brothers. Flaw: still fears the enemy.
Gear: rank insignia, war trophy, dice set, Common Clothes, pouch +10 gp.

Might as well get the best you can to CYA... still annoyingly extra squishy. Distance and good team tactics will have to save. This is one of the few races, besides var. Humans with a feat, to get better AC.

Armor: Scale Mail, AC 14+DEX (max 2).

Here's where it gets frustrating. All those weapon options, wasted.

Weapon:
Rapier. +5 atk. 1d8+3 P. finesse.
Warhammer. +5 atk. 1d8+3 B. versatile (1d10)
Longsword. +5 atk. 1d8+3 S. versatile (1d10)
Battleaxe. +5 atk. 1d8+3 S. versatile (1d10)

12x Dagger. +5 atk. 1d4+3 P. finesse, light, thrown (rng 20/60)
2x S. Sword. +5 atk. 1d6+3 P. finesse, light.
10x Darts. +5 atk. 1d4+3 P. finesse, thrown (rng 20/60).

Gear: Explorer's Pack, stuff...

Style/Bio: Bandit or Thug mercenary turned into army conscript.

So let's break down the weapons, and note this is "easy mode":

All of the versatile weapons are either 1H) +5 atk. 1d8+3 dmg. 2H) +5 atk. 1d10+3 dmg. But they are STR based, not finesse, therefore there is an opportunity cost dependent on what else STR v. DEX can give. You also can switch up mid-battle from 1H to 2H for "one free interaction with the environment" along with Use an Object (3rd lvl Thief Cunning Action Bonus) or extra damage.

Rapier is finesse, it is 1H) +5 atk. 1d8+3 dmg. However, it is one of few DEX melee weapons, and so that restriction to higher damage die weapons, for better AC, is the opportunity cost. You also retain "one free interaction with the environment" and Use an Object capacity with your extra hand free.

S. Swd & Dagger are light along with finesse, so they allow Two Weapon Fighting to trigger granting a conditional Bonus Action. That trick does also consume your single Bonus Action, so later powerful things like Cunning Action become an opportunity cost. You also lose out on a lot of "one free interaction with the environment" and Use an Object, a real cost.
S. Swd) +5 atk. 1d6+3 dmg.
Dagger) +5 atk. 1d4+3 dmg. plus optional range w/o improvisation.

So let's look at the damage averages before and after Sneak Attack!

Before
Versatile - 1H) 4.5+3=7.5 dmg, or 2H) 5.5+3=8.5 dmg. (lose distance as defense, but retain higher average damage & enviro interaction.)
Finesse - rapier) 4.5+3=7.5 dmg. (reserved for DEX builds w/ better AC & ranged weapons.)
Finesse & Light - s. swd) 3.5+3 + 3.5 = 10 dmg. (lose Opportunity for many "one free environment interaction" and Bonus flexibility.)
dagger) 2.5+3 + 2.5 = 8 dmg. (lose Opportunity for many "one free environment interaction" and Bonus flexibility. may throw & use distance as defense.)

As you can see these are quite close in cost benefit analysis. I could make arguments for any one of them as they are so similar in degrees.

After
Versatile - 1H) 4.5+3=7.5 dmg, or 2H) 5.5+3=8.5 dmg.
Finesse - rapier) 4.5+3 +3.5=11 dmg.
Finesse & Light -
s. swd) 3.5+3 +3.5 +3.5 = 14 dmg.
dagger) 2.5+3 +2.5 +3.5 = 11.5 dmg. plus optional distance as defense.

And every two levels add another 3.5 damage to Sneak Attack.

1st) 3.5 dmg. 3rd) 7 dmg. 5th) 10.5 dmg. 7th) 14 dmg. 9th) 17.5 dmg...

Which then rapidly outpaces the damage difference of 2x s. swd in the first place in favor of just caring about one Sneak Attack landing (maybe you can save your Cunning Action, maybe not):

2H s. swd: 3rd lvl) 3.5+3 +3.5 +7 = 17 dmg. 5th lvl) 3.5+4 +3.5 +10.5 = 21.5 dmg. 7th) 25 dmg. 9th) 29.5...
1H s. swd: 3rd) 13.5 dmg. 5th) 18 dmg. 7th) 21.5 dmg. 9th) 26 dmg...

2H dagger: 3rd) 2.5+3 +2.5 +7 = 15 dmg. 5th lvl) 2.5+4 +2.5 +10.5 = 19.5 dmg. 7th) 23 dmg. 9th) 27.5 dmg...
1H dagger: 3rd) 2.5+3 +7 = 12.5 dmg. 5th) 2.5+4 +10.5 = 17 dmg. 7th) 20.5 dmg. 9th) 25 dmg.

Sure the rapier damage progression is nicer than the other 1H s. swd and dagger weapons, but the key becomes landing the Sneak Attack. The opportunity to miss must be reduced, because the damage throughput is so swingy.

rapier: 3rd) 4.5+3 +7 = 14.5 dmg. 5th) 4.5+4 +10.5 = 19 dmg. 7th) 22.5 dmg. 9th) 27 dmg...

Throw in that DEX affects AC for light and medium armor so much, and that distance is one of the best defenses, and you get a very same-y build response again and again. I cannot in good conscience argue for anything but the same build because Sneak Attack damage progression is too good and locks tightly with DEX favoring ranged weapons and AC. Not even a mediocre DEX is as palatable; it's a build lock and I hate it.

So, the challenge continues: build me something that shows me I am wrong. Build me a better bad or mediocre DEX rogue than mine. See if it can build differently and meaningfully.

I may be alone here, but I just cannot see the point of this?

What character concept would ever require both levels in the Rogue Class and a low Dex?

Quote from: jadrax;800950I may be alone here, but I just cannot see the point of this?

What character concept would ever require both levels in the Rogue Class and a low Dex?

Require? None.

Work without. A few.

As mentioned. A combat focused Rogue could pump up strength in lieu of dexterity.

But more to the point. A rogue on the Assassin track can work without a good DEX as long as they have the STR to compensate.

And of course the Arcane Trickster can pull this off as well.

Its do-able. And if rolls were mostly low and only one was good then I could see someone dropping the good stat in STR or INT instead to fit their idea.

The reply ought to be #what the fuck is this Optimization wankery did I just walk into a 3.5 forum by mistake" .

There are plenty of cool rogue character with shit dex. They just won't be great at fighting so, who cares? one assumes that the player doesn't care or they would have used a higher dex.....

The Fence - play him like Ratso in Midnight Cowboy limp and all Ratso is actually a con man but would make a great fence PC)
The Con Man - play him like Nick Cage in matchstick men (or a trillion others)
The Forger, etc etc

If a PC chooses a character type that is atypical to the usual "adventurer" then the whole debate is moot.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800961There are plenty of cool rogue character with shit dex. They just won't be great at fighting so, who cares? one assumes that the player doesn't care or they would have used a higher dex.....

If a PC chooses a character type that is atypical to the usual "adventurer" then the whole debate is moot.

Yep. A rogue with good charisma could do well as the group negotiator too. Or even the go-to guy to do the shopping haggling deals. Or con men.

Courtly intrigue style set ups would be another area.

And still find ways to be usefull in a fight when those break out.

Or a thief with good wisdom turning to using trained animals for crimes.

I don't know, guys, 'you can sneak attack so long as one of your friends is 5' from the target' seems to be a very very very low bar to hop, unless your party mostly fights at range.

I mean, even in 3e, while flanking was a lot more demanding, the rogues still managed it fairly often.

I'd like a thug background or archetype that let you use non-Finesse weapons, just for variety (as folks have mentioned), and maybe some other archetypes that let you do skillish/weird things instead of sneak attack.

Quote from: Will;800975I don't know, guys, 'you can sneak attack so long as one of your friends is 5' from the target' seems to be a very very very low bar to hop, unless your party mostly fights at range.

I mean, even in 3e, while flanking was a lot more demanding, the rogues still managed it fairly often.

I'd like a thug background or archetype that let you use non-Finesse weapons, just for variety (as folks have mentioned), and maybe some other archetypes that let you do skillish/weird things instead of sneak attack.

I entirely agree. This will end up being the most common sneak attack. The second most will be rogue scouts and then get advantage from a hidden position. I estimated these will come to about 95% of instances but I was exaggerating. I think its about 90% and think that assassin's assassinate skill with figure fairly often as well as those payers that milk inspiration to get an advantage. That set will account for about 95+ %

The remainder will be corner cases and will usually overlap with one of the first two.

I just had a funny funny thought...

Ever have a party where people's tactics are godawful? Like, everyone running around and hitting random targets.

Well, the sneak attack rule helps! 'Look, you shits, FOCUS FIRE'

Quote from: Opaopajr;800733Now I have a challenge for everyone here for the 5e NPC topic. Make a combat viable (or for green character builders: survivable) "Adventure League" compliant character with DEX 8.

Do you mean a Rogue with DEX 8? Any heavy-armour class is viable with arbitrarily low DEX, AFAICS, since heavy armour is not affected by DEX either way.

You can make an adequate no-dex character, but, seriously, dex is overemphasized in this game. It's good for to hit, damage, ac, and initiative. No other stat covers more than 2 of those.

They probably should move initiative to be Intelligence based, and make strength more of a factor in the game (more severe encumbrance rules, auto-disadvantage  in melee against anything with over 4  points superior in strength, extra hp based on strength score, etc).

I had a vague idea of tying scores to defenses:
Dex, dodge/evasion (must be free to move and perceive attacks)
Con, armor/toughness (applies even if not moving or aware of attacks, must be armored)
Str, shield block/parry (must be able to move arm and perceive attacks)

My idea is that you have class proficiency, maybe fighters double armor profiency when wearing heavy armor or something

Quote from: Will;800975I don't know, guys, 'you can sneak attack so long as one of your friends is 5' from the target' seems to be a very very very low bar to hop, unless your party mostly fights at range.

I mean, even in 3e, while flanking was a lot more demanding, the rogues still managed it fairly often.

I have to admit I hate this, and hated it in 3e, because its very easy if a GM isn't stricter about it to end up with a situation where the Thief is better in combat than the Fighter.

I think that was definitely the case in 3e, in spite of having perhaps slightly more demanding rules.  In 5e, I think there may be other mitigating factors?

Ai-yah! Shit or get off the pot already. Where's your builds? Where's your play experience?

Quote from: jadrax;800950I may be alone here, but I just cannot see the point of this?

What character concept would ever require both levels in the Rogue Class and a low Dex?

I mentioned those concepts a few posts previous. I also have been repeatedly showing throughout this site how flexible 5e is against stereotype for other classes (just check my WIS 6 Cleric in the 5e NPC topic).

Flipping through my 2e Complete Thief's Handbook I am challenged by trying to duplicate familiar concepts into 5e, something I am not for other classes. The Beggar Thief (another common archetype like the Street Thug) is annoyingly challenging; all that Quarterstaff potential foregone to... carry another s. bow, dagger, & sling?

Quote from: Omega;800951Require? None.

Work without. A few.

As mentioned. A combat focused Rogue could pump up strength in lieu of dexterity.

But more to the point. A rogue on the Assassin track can work without a good DEX as long as they have the STR to compensate.

And of course the Arcane Trickster can pull this off as well.

Its do-able. And if rolls were mostly low and only one was good then I could see someone dropping the good stat in STR or INT instead to fit their idea.

Thank you, yes as mentioned, there are other thief tropes out there.

The Arcane Trickster I've seen at lvl 8 in play is not all that great for low DEX (his character is not low DEX, but I can already see that it would not work well with STR alternative). His situational defense (acrobatics, hiding, etc.) along with AC is heavily tied to DEX. His INT supports spells, yes, but in play the player eventually boiled back down to Sneak Attack. A lot of that spell creativity tended to fade, especially since there's so many other casting classes out there and we were relying in Sneak Attack for damage per round attrition. Quite annoying.

However, I cannot have seen all that there is to offer from 5e already, so throw up a lvl 5+ STR or INT focused Assassin or Arcane Trickster on here to share!

Quote from: jibbajibba;800961There are plenty of cool rogue character with shit dex. They just won't be great at fighting so, who cares? one assumes that the player doesn't care or they would have used a higher dex.....

The Fence - play him like Ratso in Midnight Cowboy limp and all Ratso is actually a con man but would make a great fence PC)
The Con Man - play him like Nick Cage in matchstick men (or a trillion others)
The Forger, etc etc

If a PC chooses a character type that is atypical to the usual "adventurer" then the whole debate is moot.

That was my line of reasoning — and I would prove it, on this website and in actual AL play, time and again. I showed my work.

I walked my talk. I had the characters made, and I ran the legal ones through Organized Play adventures. Rogue is one of those classes that breaks the 5e mold on this because Sneak Attack is such an outpacing feature and DEX an outlier utility ability.

So, on your topic about 5e restricting choices through optimal output, for a game that you have repeatedly shown through overlooked rules that you have not read in detail thoroughly, I am bringing up a topic relevant complaint. And this complaint is of a magnitude greater than 1 damage point per round average of your example. In fact, it also covers greater character creation ground than the choice between two heavy weapons in the same Fighting Style of a class; it affects the diversity of class archetypal representation, it is beyond a mere palette swap of similar grade weapon art.

So you say Fence and Con Man. Easy INT & CHA builds, ones I already have sitting about in fact, including low DEX ones. But the challenge is to build them with some combat functionality in mind (combat survival is a function) without relying on DEX. The difference is big on paper, and in play.

But you say it can be done as easily. OK. Now why don't you and show your work.

Quote from: Omega;800964Yep. A rogue with good charisma could do well as the group negotiator too. Or even the go-to guy to do the shopping haggling deals. Or con men.

Courtly intrigue style set ups would be another area.

And still find ways to be usefull in a fight when those break out.

Or a thief with good wisdom turning to using trained animals for crimes.

Already done those. The difference is when the shit hits the fan, when the talking is done, you have to have a combat out. CHA Intimidate or Persuasion only goes so far during combat. DEX on the other hand provides that.

It deals heavy amounts of damage in combat, and at long, medium, and close range (covering what STR would do). It allows distance as defense to avoid necessity bloating with CON. It also raises survivability through environment exploiting skills (Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth), along with AC. It does offense, defense, and mobility/escape.

The only real room left is Arcane Trickster INT spells and funky Magic Initiate tricks I have yet to figure out. That's what this complaint is for: let's figure this space out already.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800981I estimated these will come to about 95% of instances but I was exaggerating. I think its about 90% and think that assassin's assassinate skill with figure fairly often as well as those payers that milk inspiration to get an advantage. That set will account for about 95+ %

The remainder will be corner cases and will usually overlap with one of the first two.

I already enumerated the Conditions that grant advantage and expressed how in actual play, especially as higher level spells get involved, that this estimate is wrong.

Quote from: S'mon;801012Do you mean a Rogue with DEX 8? Any heavy-armour class is viable with arbitrarily low DEX, AFAICS, since heavy armour is not affected by DEX either way.

Yes, that is a good one. But that also dips into multi-classing and sacrificing at least 20th lvl abilities.

I was loathe to do so, as a lot of the in-class archetypes and race features gave potential to other builds without dipping. But Mt. Dwarf medium armor proficiency, along with Dwarves ignoring heavy armor movement penalties in general, and Human variant to pick up an armor feat, etc. are just not enough to get heavy armor natively. Seems like dipping into 1 or 2 lvl Fighter is a solid choice to solve a lot of design restrictions, especially if you care more about playing up to higher tier play than lingering there... I was really hoping hoping otherwise though.

Stroke of Luck looks pretty disgusting, by the way. But my groups are not dealing in 20th lvl characters yet. And I don't know if I would really care about lengthy play in that tier, either.

Quote from: Doom;801040You can make an adequate no-dex character, but, seriously, dex is overemphasized in this game. It's good for to hit, damage, ac, and initiative. No other stat covers more than 2 of those.

They probably should move initiative to be Intelligence based, and make strength more of a factor in the game (more severe encumbrance rules, auto-disadvantage  in melee against anything with over 4  points superior in strength, extra hp based on strength score, etc).

It is over-emphasized, I agree. However, so far I could live with it as it allowed a lot more character concepts in other classes become more viable. The dead-eye shot of a wizened combat wizard, the stealthy criminal cleric, etc.

In fact, I can still live with it as long as there's still arguable reasons to choose between different weapon foci. That's why Sneak Attack draws my ire so much. It is this close ][ to being an ideal WotC D&D alternative, so why did they have to introduce MMO DPS shit like this into the process?

I just need to drop it from my home games entirely because it actively detracts from character creation, development, and play in my current actual play experience.

The challenge is what to replace it with?

I think the idea is to have rogues trade survival for damage. Very MMO! (Heh heh)

For what it's worth, I actually hate sneak attack. I'd much rather rogues be tricksters in combat, blinding or confusing enemies and setting them up to be massacred by the warriors.

I, alas, didn't get a vote.