Quote from: Omega;800548Actually page 195 at the end of "Unseen attackers and Targets" spells it out. The first attack, hit or miss, drops you out of hidden.

True, but "hidden" and "unseen" are two different things.

If I'm in front of you (but hidden behind a pillar or in a bush or something) then when I make my first attack I stop being hidden and you can see me - so my second attack doesn't get Advantage.

But if I've sneaked up behind you then after making my first attack you become aware of my existence (I'm no longer hidden) but you still can't see me because I'm still behind you so I still get Advantage on my second attack.

Of course, if I simply stay behind you without hiding once more then you will be able to see me on your action and on subsequent rounds, because you're assumed to be able to turn and keep me in sight.

Naturally, we're talking about "common sense" interpretation of the situation here, since there are no strict rules for facing in the game (although I think there will be some optional ones in the DMG).

Quote from: Omega;800548Actually page 195 at the end of "Unseen attackers and Targets" spells it out. The first attack, hit or miss, drops you out of hidden.

I guess I actually do have to spell it out. :eek:

Conditions

Blinded
[...]
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, [...]

Paralyzed
[...]
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. [...]

Petrified
[...]
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

Prone
[...]
• An attack roll against the creature has advantage if this attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. [...]

Restrained
[...]
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, [...]

Stunned
[...]
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

Unconscious
[...]
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage. [...]

And yes, they all matter in combat. Including Unconscious, because Healing Magic. And not all those conditions may last that long, so taking advantage of them matters, too.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800552I guess I actually do have to spell it out. :eek:

Which has what to do with being dropped out of hidden when you attack someone with two attacks such as dual wielding and the first misses?

Quote from: jibbajibba;800545Finese weapons can base off STR or DEX.
Haven't tried it as I have zero interest but a grappler rogue could get advantage on all attacks post grapple and so have guarenteed SA on all hits.

Also not sure why you can't have a rogue poisoner with a blowpipe, as its a ranged weapon so you would get sneak attack with ranged weapons so finese is immaterial.

Grappler Rogue is very underwhelming, unless the DM allows something ridiculous like "unlimited thigh grappling capacity" to get around that "Using at least one free hand, ..." clause. And then you lose Two Weapon Fighting multi-strike to help ensure Sneak Attack lands at least once. I've see single attacks with Advantage miss many a time already.

Besides, you then invest yourself into being locked too close to melee — and we get back to the whole low DEX screws over light & med armor viability. AD&D had a lot more leeway to mediocre DEX, and it in general did not cramp AC so fast. In 5e it's already a vicious combo cycle. Might as well introduce class pre-requisites for Rogue at this point.

And again, Blowguns are Ranged Weapons are thus tied to high DEX. A Dart has finesse, and like you mentioned above, can work either high STR or DEX. The point is to build something Rogue without relying on high DEX.

A lot of the old kits and archetypes from Complete Thieves Handbook are just better off being Fighter or Mage and dipping into Criminal. And the other non-high DEX 'good thief' legends, like Dwarven Locksmith, Religious Inquisitor, etc. you might as well say fuck it and drop in a high DEX.

It's very annoying.

Quote from: Omega;800553Which has what to do with being dropped out of hidden when you attack someone with two attacks such as dual wielding and the first misses?

There is more than one way to get advantage on both strikes without hiding. That has always been the point. I quoted the whole exchange in full so as to show the deliberate narrowed focus in thinking, overlooking other basics.

Here, here is where people got lost:

Quote from: jibbajibba;800517Fair enough but you would have to be using the "adjacent to an ally" trigger as the second attack from hidden wouldn't get advantage as you would no longer be hidden.

No, no you do not have to use "adjacent ally" trigger to get advantage on your second attack in order to trigger Sneak Attack. It helps a lot making it stupid easy to trigger, but it is not either a) Hide, or b) Adjacent Ally.

You are accepting a false premise without contestation from the beginning and thus getting lost.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800555There is more than one way to get advantage on both strikes without hiding. That has always been the point. I quoted the whole exchange in full so as to show the deliberate narrowed focus in thinking, overlooking other basics.

Here, here is where people got lost:



No, no you do not have to use "adjacent ally" trigger to get advantage on your second attack in order to trigger Sneak Attack. It helps a lot making it stupid easy to trigger, but it is not either a) Hide, or b) Adjacent Ally.

You are accepting a false premise without contestation from the beginning and thus getting lost.

No one is lost. 95% of the time you will get advantage through either being hidden or having an adjacent ally. You are more likely to have advantage from Inspiration or from having the drop on someone in the first round that have an opponent who is restrained, blind, paralyzed, petrified, stunned or unconscious.
Personally it's moot to me as I am a using a Wound/HP model and all attacks against restrained, unconscious or entirely helpless foes will come straight off their wounds (typically 5 points) as a coup de grace.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800554Grappler Rogue is very underwhelming, unless the DM allows something ridiculous like "unlimited thigh grappling capacity" to get around that "Using at least one free hand, ..." clause. And then you lose Two Weapon Fighting multi-strike to help ensure Sneak Attack lands at least once. I've see single attacks with Advantage miss many a time already.

Besides, you then invest yourself into being locked too close to melee — and we get back to the whole low DEX screws over light & med armor viability. AD&D had a lot more leeway to mediocre DEX, and it in general did not cramp AC so fast. In 5e it's already a vicious combo cycle. Might as well introduce class pre-requisites for Rogue at this point.

And again, Blowguns are Ranged Weapons are thus tied to high DEX. A Dart has finesse, and like you mentioned above, can work either high STR or DEX. The point is to build something Rogue without relying on high DEX.

A lot of the old kits and archetypes from Complete Thieves Handbook are just better off being Fighter or Mage and dipping into Criminal. And the other non-high DEX 'good thief' legends, like Dwarven Locksmith, Religious Inquisitor, etc. you might as well say fuck it and drop in a high DEX.

It's very annoying.

Sorry I didn't realise your apothecary poisoner was supposed to be a non dex build.  
Any reason a dwarf grappler wouldn't be able to wear armour?

Like I say I am not into builds and I would be every comfortable playing a rogue who was shit at combat but a great investigator, or a great card player or a great inquisitor all of which I have played and I think are playable in 5e due to the Expertise ability making the rogue the absolute skill boss.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800540Rogues do not have class proficiency with Scimitars. It was omitted on purpose.

Oh, yeah, sorry. Works well for rangers, though.

QuoteWrong assumed question. I don't care how Sneak Attack is delivered. I care that I must make an effort to deliver it. I don't like that it exists at all.

The damage swing is just that beneficial, and readily combat available, that to build remotely against it makes. no. sense.

Have you tinkered with low DEX build permutations already? I have, along with other low stat experiments. There's some real potential in 5e to mitigate just about any stat penalty.

Except for Rogues. It's really hard to fight against that one-two combo of needing high DEX for AC and Sneak Attack favoring finesse or ranged weapons. It's painfully close to 4e's "drop an 18 in this stat by hook or by crook to ride this ride." It's straight up boring.

Try making a DEX mediocre Rogue focused on social skills. Quite doable. Now try to keep them out of harms way without being a social monster, either before combat (positioning via Stealth, Acrobatics, Athletics, etc.), or during (armor AC, cover, range, higher DPR to end fights earlier, etc.). You rapidly end up returning to the same answer.

One of the few I could come up with was high STR, low DEX, Mt. Dwarf who used Darts, Athletics to Shove, L. Swds to crit Prone targets, caltrop/ball bearing floor control, darkvision w/ nets... etc.

It gets quite oblique. And leaves little interpretation for basic tropes, like Thugs with clubs, or Bandit King with Longsword, Old Apothecary Poisoner (wish Blowguns had finesse), and so on. And a lot of that could still be permissible if Sneak Attack didn't exists.

I guess I'm not so bothered that someone with low dexterity would not be a rogue, because that's the way most of the classes used to work relative to their prime requisite. What would you replace sneak attack with, given that it's a major advantage for the class?

It probably calls for another archetype (the club wielding Thug in particular), or maybe a custom background (Hermit, where the discovery is "how to use a different characteristic bonus for rogue abilities that depend on DEX" ).

(Have you posted ways for wizards to work around low INT? All I can see is avoiding spells that need to hit or have a saving throw; fortunately wizards have a lot more spell choice than rogues have skill choices, but the low-INT wizard still is going to be disadvantaged for combat, I would think.)

My best suggestion would be ditching stealth: using nets (restrained) or allies or disguise to get advantage for sneak attack; and taking double bonus on non-DEX skills, which you appear to be doing; otherwise you would have to use feats to compensate.

The thug and bandit king would seem to fit barbarian or fighter better; the con-artist might fit bard better. Throw in criminal background for the thieves tools.

Quote from: rawma;800695Oh, yeah, sorry. Works well for rangers, though.



I guess I'm not so bothered that someone with low dexterity would not be a rogue, because that's the way most of the classes used to work relative to their prime requisite. What would you replace sneak attack with, given that it's a major advantage for the class?

It probably calls for another archetype (the club wielding Thug in particular), or maybe a custom background (Hermit, where the discovery is "how to use a different characteristic bonus for rogue abilities that depend on DEX" ).

(Have you posted ways for wizards to work around low INT? All I can see is avoiding spells that need to hit or have a saving throw; fortunately wizards have a lot more spell choice than rogues have skill choices, but the low-INT wizard still is going to be disadvantaged for combat, I would think.)

My best suggestion would be ditching stealth: using nets (restrained) or allies or disguise to get advantage for sneak attack; and taking double bonus on non-DEX skills, which you appear to be doing; otherwise you would have to use feats to compensate.

The thug and bandit king would seem to fit barbarian or fighter better; the con-artist might fit bard better. Throw in criminal background for the thieves tools.

I still think there are non dex rogue archetypes that work, they will simply be weak at combat. From a roleplay perspective that isn't an issue though it might be an issue from a combat optimisation stand point.

There are certainly skill based archetypes You could build with a rogue. I could see a really good Investigator based on an Int/Wis Rogue maybe using the Arcane Trickster.
As a DM I would allow the PC to twist the Save Proficiency to Int & Wis and adjust the spell list to be more diviner based.
Should get your Investigation and Perception and Insight up to +8 or more at first level.
Add the Justicar Background that was added here and ... voila.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800715I still think there are non dex rogue archetypes that work, they will simply be weak at combat. From a roleplay perspective that isn't an issue though it might be an issue from a combat optimisation stand point.

There are certainly skill based archetypes You could build with a rogue. I could see a really good Investigator based on an Int/Wis Rogue maybe using the Arcane Trickster.

Yep. An INT based detective or Arcane Trickster style Rogue looks viable. And I think a STR based Assassin or swashbuckler style Rogue works fine.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800570No one is lost. 95% of the time you will get advantage through either being hidden or having an adjacent ally. You are more likely to have advantage from Inspiration or from having the drop on someone in the first round that have an opponent who is restrained, blind, paralyzed, petrified, stunned or unconscious.
Personally it's moot to me as I am a using a Wound/HP model and all attacks against restrained, unconscious or entirely helpless foes will come straight off their wounds (typically 5 points) as a coup de grace.

I completely disagree with your out-of-your-ass percentage, and from experience.

Go study the basic combat moves available to everyone, the lighting rules, the Battlemaster class (among many), the equipment section, and the big lump of low-level (3 or less) spells that cause conditions. Study them thoroughly. Next play with them in a RAW game of on-their-game players. And then come back to me.

And coup de grace not being in 5e, has really changed how many old stand-bys like Sleep work in practice. It makes a lot of those "I win!" situations not so much anymore. Enjoy your tweaked game, but know that your arguments repeatedly show how green your understanding of 5e is.

I wholly plan to tweak 5e in the future — but for reasons from experience for what I want. It's applied house ruling, no longer theoretical. I strongly recommend it, especially since this game has a lot of integrated bits v. AD&D's discrete sub-systems.

Quote from: rawma;800695I guess I'm not so bothered that someone with low dexterity would not be a rogue, because that's the way most of the classes used to work relative to their prime requisite. What would you replace sneak attack with, given that it's a major advantage for the class?

It probably calls for another archetype (the club wielding Thug in particular), or maybe a custom background (Hermit, where the discovery is "how to use a different characteristic bonus for rogue abilities that depend on DEX" ).

I already mentioned that I would replace it with actual Backstab. I also find even mediocre DEX to be a problem for Rogues during builds and actual play. A lot of it traces back to the easy access and high power of Sneak Attack. It's like in a CCG that powerful staple rare you kinda gotta build around.

Quote from: rawma;800695(Have you posted ways for wizards to work around low INT? All I can see is avoiding spells that need to hit or have a saving throw; fortunately wizards have a lot more spell choice than rogues have skill choices, but the low-INT wizard still is going to be disadvantaged for combat, I would think.)

They're fine. I've already seen Mt. Dwarf Wizards tank and be the party's melee fighters. And the funny thing is with feats or Mage Armor you can totally work around that for other races, too. High STR or DEX wizards are already quite viable.

For the most part your spell strategy is the way to go, btw.

Mage Armor alone + DEX 16 and you got a wizard archer (dagger, dart, sling, light xbow) essentially with AC 16. Who cares about 1x +5 atk 1d10 Firebolt when you got 2x +5 atk 1d4+3 Daggers and +3 AC. Throw in Sleep and TWF melee w/ daggers (or Dwarves w/ handaxes, or Elves w/ s. swds, etc.); first is Unconscious is Adv + Crit, second is Adv, target the biggest HP guy last and so on.

Quote from: rawma;800695My best suggestion would be ditching stealth: using nets (restrained) or allies or disguise to get advantage for sneak attack; and taking double bonus on non-DEX skills, which you appear to be doing; otherwise you would have to use feats to compensate.

The thug and bandit king would seem to fit barbarian or fighter better; the con-artist might fit bard better. Throw in criminal background for the thieves tools.

It's annoying because I just went and did Skyrock's last week 5e NPC Challenge, which was this:

STR 11, DEX 15, CON 11, INT 10, WIS 6, CHA 10

And decided to make a Cleric. It wasn't hard at all. In fact, I had several variants to take the character, but decided to only bother with posting one. A nice diverse spread to take advantage of weird tidbits from race and background here and there. It was one of those 5e things that restores faith that all may actually be right again with D&D Land.

And then I tried to do a Mt. Dwarf Rogue with the same spread. I get all these new axe and hammer weapons, with light or versatile property, and even had a decent STR & CON. Lots of potential directions, right? Didn't matter, Sneak Attack says no.

So I tried other races, other weapon advantages here and there besides DEX. No good, the viable pool of weapons is essentially fixed by SA. It's too big a design swing.

So I tried low DEX rogues. Odd, can't do what I've always been doing, going against class stereotype and make something solid. Alright, how about mediocre DEX Rogues? Odd, they too suffer immensely from SA and DEX AC. Hmm, a challenge! And slowly I came to realize I utterly hate Sneak Attack, and came here to kvetch.
-------------------

Now I have a challenge for everyone here for the 5e NPC topic. Make a combat viable (or for green character builders: survivable) "Adventure League" compliant character with DEX 8. You may spend your 27 points elsewhere on the other stats, but not DEX. Now the easy thing is choose a +2 DEX race and build from there (which I already did, and I'm testing all of you people on easy mode).

Moderate challenge mode is DEX 7, then go point buy build from there.

Hard challenge mode is DEX 5, then go point buy build from there.

Let's see if you can find something I haven't.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800730I completely disagree with your out-of-your-ass percentage, and from experience.

Go study the basic combat moves available to everyone, the lighting rules, the Battlemaster class (among many), the equipment section, and the big lump of low-level (3 or less) spells that cause conditions. Study them thoroughly. Next play with them in a RAW game of on-their-game players. And then come back to me.

And coup de grace not being in 5e, has really changed how many old stand-bys like Sleep work in practice. It makes a lot of those "I win!" situations not so much anymore. Enjoy your tweaked game, but know that your arguments repeatedly show how green your understanding of 5e is.

I wholly plan to tweak 5e in the future — but for reasons from experience for what I want. It's applied house ruling, no longer theoretical. I strongly recommend it, especially since this game has a lot of integrated bits v. AD&D's discrete sub-systems.

Hmmm yes I was exagerating for effect but... the main point is valid.

All the effects that might give a rogue advantage are niche cases, not all parties will have a battlemaster, few casters will have the right spells and those spells will be once per "day".

If the rogue gets a ring of invisibility, if rogue has darkvision and the enemies don't, if a caster can stun an enemy with a spell. Lots of exception based options in there.
The only options that will always be in place for the rogue are Hide and strike with advantage, because they control all elements of that, and attack a foe in combat with an ally, as it is highly likely for the rogue to have an ally.

I have run 4 sessions 4-5 hours and the rogue gained advantage once from inspiration outside of hide.
Now we have a figther who will select the Battlemaster route now he has hit 3rd level so we might start seeing some other situations but there is never going be a gaurentee round party make up.  

I would be very interested if you (or anyone else) has a break down of frequency of other instances and what they are so I can see how my group may develop.

But the whole thing is kind of moot. Yes a dual weild rogue will get an extra chance to get a sneak attack with adavantage where a number of niche situations will apply but they will constantly be in combat where they have allies and can make sneak attacks without advantage and they can only make 1 sneak attack anyway so we are arguing about the a sub case of a sub case.

Quote from: jibbajibba;800715I still think there are non dex rogue archetypes that work, they will simply be weak at combat. From a roleplay perspective that isn't an issue though it might be an issue from a combat optimisation stand point.

There are certainly skill based archetypes You could build with a rogue. I could see a really good Investigator based on an Int/Wis Rogue maybe using the Arcane Trickster.
As a DM I would allow the PC to twist the Save Proficiency to Int & Wis and adjust the spell list to be more diviner based.
Should get your Investigation and Perception and Insight up to +8 or more at first level.
Add the Justicar Background that was added here and ... voila.

I already did that with an Acolyte Rogue in a home game. I rolled 3d6 straight down (DM gave me an exception to randomly generate, and through the weaker 3d6 method). Insight (bkrd), Religion (bkrd), Investigation, Medicine, Perception, Persuasion. Extra languages in Latin & Greek.

Thus Cadfael was born in 5e (yes, like the murder mystery series). He still needs proficiency in Navigator Tools, Vehicle land, & Herbalist Kit in the future. But he started at level 1, so...

If only he was in a smaller & different party would all those soft skills matter.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800738I already did that with an Acolyte Rogue in a home game. I rolled 3d6 straight down (DM gave me an exception to randomly generate, and through the weaker 3d6 method). Insight (bkrd), Religion (bkrd), Investigation, Medicine, Perception, Persuasion. Extra languages in Latin & Greek.

Thus Cadfael was born in 5e (yes, like the murder mystery series). He still needs proficiency in Navigator Tools, Vehicle land, & Herbalist Kit in the future. But he started at level 1, so...

If only he was in a smaller & different party would all those soft skills matter.

So a great character but in the wrong game if you needed a murder hobo