...two separate threads featuring stories of players min-maxing to make certain things automatic, then bitching about how now they don't feel challenged. Wanna bet the same players would pitch a hissy fit if the DM threw them a heavy dose of fiat? (man...really hate "system masters"...enough to drive you into story gaming permanently.

shitty players will continue to be shitty.

Lucky for you and me, we don't have to game with them.

Is this bitching here or on RPG.net?

Because if the latter, complaining about people bitching on RPG.net is like complaining about turning on the tap and getting water.

JG

Why in hell do people waste time passive-aggressively playing games that they hate just so that they can bitch about it online? Oh I get it, there's some kind of e-cred for bashing 5e on RPG.net and SA. Got it. Why don't they just play games that they like and ignore the stuff that they don't?

Yes I'm envious that they have so much free time.

Quote from: James Gillen;793255Is this bitching here or on RPG.net?

Because if the latter, complaining about people bitching on RPG.net is like complaining about turning on the tap and getting water.

JG

Sorry--it's on the Wizards site.

Quote from: cranebump;793251...two separate threads featuring stories of players min-maxing to make certain things automatic, then bitching about how now they don't feel challenged. Wanna bet the same players would pitch a hissy fit if the DM threw them a heavy dose of fiat? (man...really hate "system masters"...enough to drive you into story gaming permanently.

No game as complex as an RPG will do well with deliberate attempts to break the rules.  A bit of judgment can remove most of these corner cases (or just make them into ways for the player to shine) but this seems to be besides the point when the goal is breaking the game.

Quote from: Necrozius;793257Why in hell do people waste time passive-aggressively playing games that they hate just so that they can bitch about it online? Oh I get it, there's some kind of e-cred for bashing 5e on RPG.net and SA. Got it. Why don't they just play games that they like and ignore the stuff that they don't?

Yes I'm envious that they have so much free time.

Most of them don't actually play. Bitching online is the hobby.

Quote from: Votan;793261No game as complex as an RPG will do well with deliberate attempts to break the rules.  A bit of judgment can remove most of these corner cases (or just make them into ways for the player to shine) but this seems to be besides the point when the goal is breaking the game.

The two threads focused on skills and a "broken" spell, respectively. Both of them featured long conversations about the "okay-ness" of basically mathing down the challenges. The spell discussion was somewhat interesting in that it focused on a DM banning a spell because it seemed obvious to him that use of the spell was an "I win" button. This turned into a big back-n-forth ethical/philosophical/mathematical discussion about the GM's decision. Parts of that discussion spoke of the group as being adept at party synergy, in this case, basically being able to pile on the most modifiers to break down an encounter. This led to players not feeling challenged, and suggestions on what the DM should do, rule wise to deal with it (including some "well, you need X/# of encounters to...).

By that time, I was onto the skills discussion that featured examples of characters who cannot, by the numbers, be surprised, along with said bemoaning of the fact that they cannot be surprised. At that point, my response was, "I think if someone bitched about a lack of challenge skill-wise, I'd cut the entire skills section."

It's hard for me to understand, really, the value of tweaking out every positive mod in an attempt to be unbeatable. There's no inherent value in it. Being unbeatable ruins aspects of risk and drama. I'm not sure how the game can be entertaining played that way. Then again, I'm not much of a "system master," so maybe I'm missing out on the huge joy of finding my own version of Pun-Pun.

In any case, mathing failure to near nothing, then bitching about lack of challenge seems to be hoist by one's own petard (did I use that right?). Not sure why the irony is lost on the min-maxer who travels that road.

Let me guess, the spell Contagion?

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;793265Let me guess, the spell Contagion?

Polymorph, actually.

As a GM, I though the one feat that nullifies surprise for the most part was something I would think is a good thing for one or two party members. I'm curious to know why it is supposedly game breaking or whatever.

I skimmed through and none of the thread names stood out, do you have links/titles handy?

Quote from: cranebump;793267Polymorph, actually.

Again?

That makes I think four threads now on how broken/aint broken/is too broken the spell is.

When not applying same to Mage Hand which some read to be able to garrot people and god knows what that the entry on it says it cant do.

What was it this time? Polymorph the fighter into a red dragon?

It makes me very happy that these people seemingly can't have fun.

That probably makes me a bad person.

Oh well.

oh, on the wotc forums?  I bet I can guess who was involved in that conversation.  Some people have nothing better to do than bitch about games I guess

Huh.  My cocoa's still brown, the candle flame is still hot, the night is still dark out, and people find something to bitch about over the Internet.

Stop the freaking presses.