Oh dear god, those are terrible. Why even bother with fixes then?; these are so permissive. The only one I liked was #4:

Having a form's HP reduced to zero reverts you to your normal form, deals overflow damage, and also stuns you until the end of your next turn. A form with zero HP cannot be used (and its HP cannot be recovered) until a long rest.

And even still that's needless bookkeeping that doesn't improve the game, let alone truly mitigate the feature's power. Are you sure my fix is too restrictive compared to 'giving away the farm'?
:confused:

From what you've clarified about what you don't like, I don't think this is remotely in the same county of you want.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;918909Found this selection of possible changes to Wild Shape:

http://nevinera.net/5e-wildshape-variant/

I'd be firmly against using those rules, but for completely opposite reasons than Omega.

Just what role do you see the druid playing in any given campaign? That would go a long way to telling you what sort of changes, if any, you should be looking at implementing.

Damage? Right now druids rank near the bottom at pumping out damage, especially in wild form. Those changes just make them worse to the point that lower-level druids might as well stick to shillelagh.

Tanking? Druids are one of the best tanks, right behind the barbarian, but those changes will hurt them. A lot. So the druid's primary role in combat is going to take a massive hit. Even adding the barkskin benefit is not that useful because it's Concentration; it will never stay up (AC 16 is not great for a melee tank without resistance or tons of HP to rely on), so every druid would be forced to be a variant human to take War Caster or Resilient at chargen just to get any benefit from it.

Utility? Also a huge strength currently, but then also something that suffers mightily with those rules by forcing the druid into a single form and making them choose it ahead of time. Does your druid want a few more hit points (with awful AC and a single weak attack) or a scout form that might prove useless today? Druid spells certainly don't offer the sort of utility that wizards benefit from to make up the difference.

Honestly, the one that really caught my eye was the restriction on multiattacks until level 5, which makes complete sense given the similar restriction for every other class, even the revised beastmaster ranger they just published in Unearthed Arcana. That would probably resolve a lot of the concerns about how strong the class is from lvl 2 to 6.

It isn't really the strength of the attacks that's the issue, it's the freakishly huge amount of hit points...and it all comes back with a short rest.

Now, certainly, some dungeons can be on a tight timeline, but you're always being hounded to the point that you can't take a short rest (because doing so gives nearly 3 digits of hit points to one character, plus the recovery possibilities all others get), it's warping the game on that alone.

Then you toss in all the other possibilities, like utility. You'd pretty much have to give the fighter 50 temp hp at ever short rest to put it on the same level. Theoretically, at higher levels, it's not so bad...but now you have to factor in various feats and spells, making it tough to really have an apples to apples comparison.

Quote from: Doom;919204It isn't really the strength of the attacks that's the issue, it's the freakishly huge amount of hit points...and it all comes back with a short rest.

You're right, I'm just having a hard time settling on a solution. Getting stunned when you hit 0 hp in a form might be both too harsh and not really a fix since the enemies would still have to make it through a ton of ablation that all comes back on a rest anyway.

Here are some other possibilities:
- If you hit 0 hp in a form you take a level of exhaustion.
- If you hit 0 hp in a form you can't wild shape again for 1 minute.
- Wild Shape does not replace your HP, just gives you a low-ish number of temporary HP and you never get 'knocked out' of a form.
- Each time you wild shape you must give up one of you healing hit dice.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919239You're right, I'm just having a hard time settling on a solution. Getting stunned when you hit 0 hp in a form might be both too harsh and not really a fix since the enemies would still have to make it through a ton of ablation that all comes back on a rest anyway.

No its not too harsh nor too lenient. Someone can hopefully revive them if they go down. Short rest recovery doesnt do the Druid any good if they die same as nigh unlimited False Life extra HP doesnt make the Warlock invincible. Hence why we settled on no pop-up on being taken down to 0 in animal form.

Heres what we use.
1: Dropping to 0 HP in animal form is the same as for everyone else. Unconcious. This is the simplest one.

2: Kefra suggested this one herself. Still testing it. Each TF or short rest allows the druid to expend their beast shapes HD to heal the damaged form. Same as the character can to their regular self. Also just like the Rangers animal companion and familliars can. Little more bookeeping and the GM thinks its excessive restriction since we get short rests so rarely and have never abused short rests. And Kefra and I are kinda reliant on those. We get along fine without.

3: Massive damage rules are in effect! Mostly a hazard to the smaller low HP forms.

Quote from: Omega;919395Heres what we use.
1: Dropping to 0 HP in animal form is the same as for everyone else. Unconcious. This is the simplest one.

Just to clarify...
Unconscious with all the the druid's true form HP intact, OR
unconscious because the druid's true form HP are ALSO reduced to 0?

If it's the first one, how long does he stay unconscious?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919487Just to clarify...
Unconscious with all the the druid's true form HP intact, OR
unconscious because the druid's true form HP are ALSO reduced to 0?

If it's the first one, how long does he stay unconscious?

Unconcious with the druid back to whatever HP they had when they changed, plus any carryover from the KO blow or any followups.

And a small digression. Carryover damage is one of the major threats to anyone shifted. Moreso if you interpret the rules such that damage after KO isnt just absorbed like normal. So your bear goes down and 2 points carry over. But someone wacks it again for good measure for 6 more so that carries over too.

Either way everyone at both tables agreed that popping back up after being KOed and forced to revert was not very "realistic" in context.

Either way basic stabalizing from someone else will revive them.

I'm a bit late to the party but after reading through the thread it covered many of my concerns about the Druid Wild shape ability.

Now perhaps I'm just a hard core DM but I've never had a problem with telling Players NO from time to time. Sometimes shit players can do in the Rules as Written, or come up with on their own are just flat out to powerful, if not down right game breaking. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat, and if the Druid can't shape shift into a Dragon and has to settle for a Sparrow so be it.

Some of the limitations I've considered placing on Druid Shape Shift are

• Only allow shifting into non-magical animals.
• Only allow shifting into non-magical currently non extinct animals
• HP's remain the same when in animal form, so uses the Druids current HP. No Temp HP bolster then when you switch back you have your Human HP.
• HP becomes the animals HP. So a 1HP rat, if the Druid takes 1HP then they are dead. Makes the Druid think a bit harder about taking on weaker animal forms. Cost/Benefit analysis.
• Any cuts, bruises, sickness, disease, curse, transfer over to the animal form. It's a poly-morph not a cure all.
• I would apply these limitations onto the Poly-morph spell as well, granted without the natural animal restrictions.
• Make the transformation to and from animal form take a full round where the Druid/Animal is helpless and more vulnerable to attack.
• Make their clothing/gear/weapons drop off them and not "magically" go with them when they shape shift. So if they were to shift back to Human form in a different spot they'd be naked.

You could use one of them? pick and choose a few or use them all. I think the versitilaty of being able to change into an Animal even if it's mundane and weak has sooooooo much versatility and potential it's still an amazingly flexible and powerful ability.

Quote from: Gwarh;921254Some of the limitations I've considered placing on Druid Shape Shift are

• Only allow shifting into non-magical animals.
• Only allow shifting into non-magical currently non extinct animals
• HP's remain the same when in animal form, so uses the Druids current HP. No Temp HP bolster then when you switch back you have your Human HP.
• HP becomes the animals HP. So a 1HP rat, if the Druid takes 1HP then they are dead. Makes the Druid think a bit harder about taking on weaker animal forms. Cost/Benefit analysis.
• Any cuts, bruises, sickness, disease, curse, transfer over to the animal form. It's a poly-morph not a cure all.
• I would apply these limitations onto the Poly-morph spell as well, granted without the natural animal restrictions.
• Make the transformation to and from animal form take a full round where the Druid/Animal is helpless and more vulnerable to attack.
• Make their clothing/gear/weapons drop off them and not "magically" go with them when they shape shift. So if they were to shift back to Human form in a different spot they'd be naked.

You could use one of them? pick and choose a few or use them all. I think the versitilaty of being able to change into an Animal even if it's mundane and weak has sooooooo much versatility and potential it's still an amazingly flexible and powerful ability.

1: Thats allready in the 5e rules. Aside from the Stirge (which has no place at all listed as a natural animal) all the listed critters are either normal or giant versions. And some of the giant versions occur in real life nature to some degree. (While others obviously dont)
2: Theres allready a check in place since the Druid has to have seen a dinosaur/prehistoric species before they can become one. That puts a major curb on the ability.
3: Uh? Sorry. No 50hp rats.
4: Not sure about death. But unconsciousness should have been the default. Possibly with massive damage trauma based on the animal forms HP. That would make small animal forms more challenging.
5: This is a grey area in 5e. Do status effects carry over to the beast form and back as well? We have been playing it that yes, poison or disease or things like curses and debuffs do carry over.
6: Some of the transformative spells have simmilar limitations as a Druid has. But "Only things you've seen" should apply.
7: Thats allready an option in the rules. Locking it to being unable to absorb the gear doent change much. The Druid does not get any benefit from absorbed gear. And players will just start commissioning or fashioning variable gear to bypass the problem so they can wear the gear AND get the benefits.

Quote from: Omega;9217751: Thats allready in the 5e rules. Aside from the Stirge (which has no place at all listed as a natural animal) all the listed critters are either normal or giant versions. And some of the giant versions occur in real life nature to some degree. (While others obviously dont)
2: Theres allready a check in place since the Druid has to have seen a dinosaur/prehistoric species before they can become one. That puts a major curb on the ability.
3: Uh? Sorry. No 50hp rats.
4: Not sure about death. But unconsciousness should have been the default. Possibly with massive damage trauma based on the animal forms HP. That would make small animal forms more challenging.
5: This is a grey area in 5e. Do status effects carry over to the beast form and back as well? We have been playing it that yes, poison or disease or things like curses and debuffs do carry over.
6: Some of the transformative spells have simmilar limitations as a Druid has. But "Only things you've seen" should apply.
7: Thats allready an option in the rules. Locking it to being unable to absorb the gear doent change much. The Druid does not get any benefit from absorbed gear. And players will just start commissioning or fashioning variable gear to bypass the problem so they can wear the gear AND get the benefits.

I agree with all your points. The Druid can only wildshape into beasts that they've seen; the GM certainly doesn't need to allow dinosaurs.

I'd just like to reiterate that the Moon Druid Wildshape issue really is only over a few levels where the CR is too high, too early. The Druid IMC is 7th level and wildshaping to CR 2 causes no combat issues. Wildshaping to non-combat forms is powerful but other PCs have powers of similar magnitude. The big issue is that CR 1 Wildshape at level 2 is vastly overpowered; CR 1 wildshape resembles the level 5 ablities of other classes such as multi-attack and fireball. If you are going to be playing a lot at levels 2-4 it merits house ruling, perhaps to CR 0.5 level 2-3, CR 1 level 4-5. For my own long term campaign it was an issue that went away quickly enough.

Quote from: Omega;9217757: Thats allready an option in the rules. Locking it to being unable to absorb the gear doent change much. The Druid does not get any benefit from absorbed gear. And players will just start commissioning or fashioning variable gear to bypass the problem so they can wear the gear AND get the benefits.

Well, one could nerf the variable gear option (/it working in this context), if this were seen as a problem. I know not having your gear was likely supposed to be a cost to the benefit of wildshape in 3e, and they proceeded to make it exceedingly easy to bypass almost immediately (which is probably why we're all sensitive to overpowered druids to this day. I certainly don't remember them stomping all over the game in 2e or earlier).

I however agree with others. Moon druid is overpowered in tightly constrained levels of play. If you're playing a one-off adventure at low-mid levels, expect a lot of moon druids. Otherwise, it isn't much of a problem.

Lets look at the Moon Druid at level 2 with Brown Bear:

AC 11: About dead average. Equivalent to an unarmoured character with a 12-13 DEX. This is the big weakness of the form. Its an easy target.

34 hp: This is the biggy at level 2. A Fighter will average only 15 HP before CON mods and its not till around level 4 before catching up. Depending on CON of course. More pressing might be the extra HP the form allows. 68 HP if used 3 times. This assumes the Druid is obsessively using the Bear only. But as noted before. My Warlock character can get 1d4+4 temp HP every round if need be at level 1.

2 attacks averaging 8 and 11: Not bad and it isnt till level 5 or so most non-dual wielding characters can get close to that.

Keep in mind that this is it till level 6 and dependent on if you've lucked out to have spotted things like a giant constrictor, etc. Theres the problem of no spellcasting while you keep up that form, and not so little problems like passages a large creature cant negotiate, necessitating dropping the form. You've only got 2 uses and who knows when the next short rest is.

YMMV. But thats not as great a boon as it appears.

Another issue I'm grappling with is the elemental form they get at level 10. My druid had a field day with that.

Elementals are resistant to non-magical weapons, effectively doubling their already sky high HP in worlds where most people don't get magical weapons and you don't want to deploy legions of high magic / extra dimensional critters.

The air elemental has incredible mobility, flying at a speed of 90 feet per round and making a joke out of many location-based challenges or those rare critters that could even attempt to take it on in combat.

The earth elemental glides through unworked earth and stone, leaving no passage to follow them through. This makes for incredible hit-and-run tactics in a huge range of terrain (how many burrowing critters do YOU field), and obsoletes many dungeons (either they waltz around a natural complex or they outline map a worked-stone complex).

Naturally the rest of the party is left out of these shenanigans, and the decision process of my party routinely came down to:
"Should we do this the hard but fun way or should we just send in the lone druid to cut this Gordian Knot at minimum risk?"

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;921992Another issue I'm grappling with is the elemental form they get at level 10. My druid had a field day with that.

Right. This is where the real trouble kicks in if. Kefra's got it but hasnt used it so far as it doesnt fit her idea of her Druid character or even the Circle of the Moon concept to her. Also it breaks the Moon Druids CR progression.

Some thoughts.

1: It uses up all your transformations. Thats still up to 10 hours of being a rock monster.
2: None of the forms are stealthy. They give their presences away in various ways. Some have movement restrictions too due to size or other factors.
3: Still cant wear their gear.
4: Cant be used if you've transformed allready and havent had a chance to rest.

Some irks

1: 5e elementals other than the Earth one have no severe element weaknesses. Adding in an element weakness for each would fix that.
2: Some potentially annoying special movement powers. Earth can at least be stymied by worked structures which means about 75% of all adventure locales.

So far no ones been particularly thrilled with the elemental form and Kefra talked with the GM and opted to just gain a Shambling Mound form for the same cost.