I'm sorry Opaopa, no druid player I'm likely to GM for will accept that.

Quote from: Omega;918284Also why apply it to Polymorph and Shapechange? Polymorph is castable only a limited number of times even at the higher levels and Shapechange costs 1500gp a use and even more in how many times can cast. (True Polymorph though is pretty cheap to cast but still limited.) And both polymorphs leaves the target with the mental stats of said form too. (Animal Shapes doesnt have that limitation.)

Hmm, good point.

The Moon Druid in my Golarion game is powerful but not dominant. She was very powerful levels 2-4 of course (CR 1 at level 2 is pretty ridiculous), but at level 6-8 a CR 2 form is no longer a big deal in combat. Scouting is limited by the vulnerability of small animal forms since they use animal stats, not Druid stats. And unlike 3e there's no wildshaped spellcasting (or even talking!) so she spends most of her time in human form. I'd say recently the Shadow Monk has been more powerful due to his use of Ki points to Stun enemy casters and leaders.

My game is set in Varisia, Golarion (using the Runelords & Shattered Star APs), so I allow temperate & some sub-tropical creatures and some Ice Age creatures, I expect she'll have seen a mammoth by level 18, I allow cave bears, but no dinosaurs.

I haven't really seen any class dominate totally in my 5e games, though Barbarian is very strong and Paladin is oddly dull though not underpowered. Fighter is a bit weak in combat, Rogue is a bit weak in combat but has useful out of combat abilities. No one plays Rangers, the opposite of 4e and indicating a bit of design failure - 5e screwed up both Rangers & Paladins IMO by making them spell-centric, not what most people look for in those classes.

Quote from: Omega;9155081: So you ignored the rules then complain when something breaks?

2: Since you seem to be gunning for 5e. Guess you would see it like that. :rolleyes:

5e is definitely designed around GM judgement/Mother May I. People who don't like that would be better off with a different system - 4e for instance runs well out of the box. 5e is not intended to be 'player empowering', it's much much closer to old school 'GM as benevolent dictator'.

Quote from: Headless;915535You wouldn't let someone roll up a cavalier and then kill his horse.

Er... if that is the natural consequence of play, I certainly would, and so would any decent GM.

A decent DM would tell some up front that the adventures were going to start on a boat and the go underground, so you can play a cavileer, but you won't get a horse.  

And we aren't talking about natural consequences of play we are talking about a mid game nerf because someone is being too creative with wild shape.

Quote from: S'mon;9183425e is definitely designed around GM judgement/Mother May I.

Somewhat ironic, given that the man in charge introduced "Mother May I" as a negative term to online RPG discourse.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;918382Somewhat ironic, given that the man in charge introduced "Mother May I" as a negative term to online RPG discourse.

Mearls? Or are you taking yet another self-congratulatory piss on Gygax's grave?

#WhatDecadesLongGrudgeAgainstSomeoneYouNeverMetWouldJesusHold?

Quote from: S'mon;918341I haven't really seen any class dominate totally in my 5e games, though Barbarian is very strong and Paladin is oddly dull though not underpowered. Fighter is a bit weak in combat, Rogue is a bit weak in combat but has useful out of combat abilities. No one plays Rangers, the opposite of 4e and indicating a bit of design failure - 5e screwed up both Rangers & Paladins IMO by making them spell-centric, not what most people look for in those classes.

This is where you see a big difference in builds and choices within a class. You might have one fighter who just doesn't look overly impressive, yet beside him is another at only level 6 who dishes out six attacks doing 100+ damage the first round thanks to Sentinel/Polearm Master/Great Weapon Master. And hiding behind the wizard is the halfling rogue fires twice every round with a hand crossbow for respectable damage thanks to Sneak Attack, Sharpshooter, and Crossbow Expert.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;918309I'm sorry Opaopa, no druid player I'm likely to GM for will accept that.

Means you haven't gored your table enough with your viking hat.

There's already a growing list of things I'd edit out or substitute if I'd run another non-RAW homegame of 5e. But as my issues goes, I don't know if it really breaches my top 5. In a pile of strong stuff and unintended consequences I don't consider it too terrible; not ideal for me, but relatively irritating, mostly in fits and starts 'til lv 20.

Well the good news is that if a shifted Druid is reduced to zero HP by Disintigrate then they dont revert back. They disintigrate into dust and are gone. :eek:

Quote from: Omega;918455Well the good news is that if a shifted Druid is reduced to zero HP by Disintigrate then they dont revert back. They disintigrate into dust and are gone. :eek:

That actually is really useful to know about spell & feature interactions. More spheres of annihilation everybody! Put them everywhere, like inside the mouths of demon heads in bas relief friezes!

Quote from: CRKrueger;918383Mearls? Or are you taking yet another self-congratulatory piss on Gygax's grave?

  No, I tracked this down a few years ago, and Mearls did seem to be the origin point, although the term has drifted. Gygax blessed us with the roots of 'fantasy superheroes', although again, the term's come to mean something substantially different.

Quote#WhatDecadesLongGrudgeAgainstSomeoneYouNeverMetWouldJesusHold?

It's not Gygax I have an issue with; it's that small but noisy fringe of the OSR that uses his name and reputation like a bludgeon to try and shame anyone who prefers different ways of playing.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;918506It's not Gygax I have an issue with; it's that small but noisy fringe of the OSR that uses his name and reputation like a bludgeon to try and shame anyone who prefers different ways of playing.

You mean the ones who claim their games are the way it was 'meant to be played'?

As an alternative balancing measure, I've also been thinking about stunning the druid for 1 round when he's reduced to 0 in an alt form. It still leaves him with tons of HP, but it's less intrusive than my first proposal, he'd at least feel less invincible and the party would react accordingly.

Thoughts?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;918517As an alternative balancing measure, I've also been thinking about stunning the druid for 1 round when he's reduced to 0 in an alt form. It still leaves him with tons of HP, but it's less intrusive than my first proposal, he'd at least feel less invincible and the party would react accordingly.

Thoughts?

Yeah. I was not happy with the Druid just popping back up after being "killed" in animal form. That has still got to be traumatic even if they were in Coyote form.

That was actually a self imposed limit Kefra put on her Druid as she didnt like that pop-up feature either. The DM did discuss the optional massive damage rule and how that might make a shapeshifters life excessively difficult.