don't anyone tell cranebump about aarokocra.

...or pixies

...or raven familiars


...or wizards

Quote from: Willie the Duck;915578
don't anyone tell cranebump about aarokocra.

...or pixies

...or raven familiars


...or wizards

Noooo! Don't tell them about Rocs either!

P.S. Yeah, I hate all that stuff, too, wizards included. :-)


By the way, on topic: some of my DW players also play regular 5E, and, to a one, agree with 5th druid brokenness, regards to wild shape.

Quote from: Headless;915535If your problem is the versatility and power if magic d&d might not be the game for you.  It's a high magic system.  Like ridiculously high.  If that's not what you want this isn't the system you want.

  WotC has defined D&D as "the game where you fight monsters with magic."

Quote from: Doom;915539That's a very interesting way to look at the rules on page 225 of the 5e PHB. Are we talking about the same game?

"You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts..." is what the spell says. They're not even animals they're...whatever they want to be. Why would they choose something that isn't appropriate? Where does it say the DM decides exactly what form the fey spirits take? You mean the DM can just say "Okeedoke, you get some cows which I'll call whatever CR you ask for. Again." every time, even when the player really just wants an otter to swim around and check for underwater exits? That's...supremely dickish, no?

I suspect my players might riot if I try that, but "the DM can just be a dick" seems to be a poor way to interpret how that spell works. I really think rolling randomly would be better than just pure DM dickishness.

in my opinion, of course.

On the other hand, it says the fey spirits take the form of beasts. The fey do it. Not the player tells the fey to show up as a certain animal.

Quote from: cranebump;915583Noooo! Don't tell them about Rocs either!

P.S. Yeah, I hate all that stuff, too, wizards included. :-)


By the way, on topic: some of my DW players also play regular 5E, and, to a one, agree with 5th druid brokenness, regards to wild shape.

They still have Cloak of the Bat in 5e?

Quote from: Doom;915539That's a very interesting way to look at the rules on page 225 of the 5e PHB. Are we talking about the same game?

"You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts..." is what the spell says. They're not even animals they're...whatever they want to be. Why would they choose something that isn't appropriate? Where does it say the DM decides exactly what form the fey spirits take? You mean the DM can just say "Okeedoke, you get some cows which I'll call whatever CR you ask for. Again." every time, even when the player really just wants an otter to swim around and check for underwater exits? That's...supremely dickish, no?

I suspect my players might riot if I try that, but "the DM can just be a dick" seems to be a poor way to interpret how that spell works. I really think rolling randomly would be better than just pure DM dickishness.

in my opinion, of course.

Page 225 "The DM has the creatures statistics"

and this from the FAQ from one of the designers.

QuoteQ: When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?

A: A number of spells in the game let you summon creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a few examples.
Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from.
Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
•
One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
•
Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example, if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower.
A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce in a scene.

Quote from: Doom;915539That's a very interesting way to look at the rules on page 225 of the 5e PHB. Are we talking about the same game?

"You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts..." is what the spell says. They're not even animals they're...whatever they want to be. Why would they choose something that isn't appropriate? Where does it say the DM decides exactly what form the fey spirits take? You mean the DM can just say "Okeedoke, you get some cows which I'll call whatever CR you ask for. Again." every time, even when the player really just wants an otter to swim around and check for underwater exits? That's...supremely dickish, no?

Well what about summoning 8 pixies every single time regardless of how appropriate it might be for the terrain just for the awesome spell casting power?

Players can be dicks too.

The fair way to handle it is with tables based on prevailing terrain. That way a player in an aquatic environment is likely to get those otters but a player in the underdark has little if any chance to get pixies. The tables can be weighted to give the most terrain appropriate results with a few exceptions on the extreme ends of the curve because magic.

Quote from: Harlock;915593They still have Cloak of the Bat in 5e?

Cloak of the Bat(r)

And Broom of Flying(u)
And Carpet of Flying(vr)
And the Griffon and Fly Figurines of Wonderous Power(r)
And Potion of Flying(vr)
And Potion of Gaseous Form(r)
And the Bird version of Quaal's Feather Token(r 15% chance) Dont tell crane its roc.
And Wand of Polymorphing(r)
And Winged Boots(u)
And Wings of Flying(r)

Did I miss any? Do boots of Levitation(r) And Horseshoes of the Zephyr(vr) count?

Well, you finally got me on one. That definitely makes summoning a bit less ridiculous.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;915601The fair way to handle it is with tables based on prevailing terrain. That way a player in an aquatic environment is likely to get those otters but a player in the underdark has little if any chance to get pixies. The tables can be weighted to give the most terrain appropriate results with a few exceptions on the extreme ends of the curve because magic.

Agreed, there really should have been tables or the like. Man, wonder who suggested that...

Quote from: Doom;915607Agreed, there really should have been tables or the like. Man, wonder who suggested that...

Seems the idea was that the DM would be making the random tables based on the locale. Theres a section in the DMG on how to. But for summons types seems its more because the summons are more fluid and versatile instead of a fixed random loadout. Just the Animals and Woodland Beings ones alone one youd need a table for CRs 1/4 to 2 for each. Elementals up to CR 9. Celestials to CR 5 and so on.

They could have stuck to something more fixed in level. But 5e seems to be all about versatility in some way.

Coming back to this, here's a fix I've been thinking about for addition to my table rules document:

- (page 67) Wild Shape. In the second bullet point, change the first few sentences to this: "When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. Then, if the beast has more hit points than your true form currently does, reduce its maximum hit points until they equal your true form's (this does not count as damage)."

EDIT: Obviously this would apply to polymorph and shapechange as well.

Easiest fix is you just use your own Druid HP instead of the animal's. Thus the temp HP issue is wholly dead. When you're at 0 HP you're unconscious; no bleed over tabulation. Less bookkeeping, less math, less ablative bloating, less heedless animal destruction.

You already get enough other animal advantages, but this way it shifts the feature into heavier exploration than ablative combat.

That makes assuming a combat form rather useless then. Whats the point other than the imagined threat of the shapechanger getting essentially temp HP? Keep in mind that any excess damage they take if they drop carries over.

Also why apply it to Polymorph and Shapechange? Polymorph is castable only a limited number of times even at the higher levels and Shapechange costs 1500gp a use and even more in how many times can cast. (True Polymorph though is pretty cheap to cast but still limited.) And both polymorphs leaves the target with the mental stats of said form too. (Animal Shapes doesnt have that limitation.)

And is this also being applied in reverse to forms with less HP than the PC? If not then it comes across as just a backhanded nerf.

And what about the Warlock spamming False Life? Thats an at will handfull of temp HP over and over.

I said for the druid feature. Polymorph is a separate case and one I am not as concerned about if you return martial interrupt during casting.

As for lowering its combat viability, I could care less. Switching to exploration emphasis, and shifting where nothing is guaranteed to be as it seems, works my conception of the mysteries of the moon and life's mutability. No need or interest in making it viable as a meat shield wall. They'll be fine, they still have spells.

Also using your own Druid HP does not lower your HP for a smaller animal. It was quite clear in the first sentence.