Quote from: TJS;1056020To my mind Anti-magic fields feel more Vancian.  

Not that I can recall anything of the sort in the Dying Earth - but they fit a concept of magic as decadent poorly understand superscience in which magic is an alien or extraplanar force to be manipulated and with which to manipulate the world.

If we were to split 3E animals and beasts categories into "earth animals" and "aliens" then the division would make sense.  

So many D&D conceit's just make a lot more sense if we assume a Dying Earth/New Sun, style of setting.

These implied conceits should not be forced on to campaigns settings that are not trying to emulate post-apocalyptic settings like that. Honestly, in that context anti-magic seems closer to EMP if magic is supposed to be the equivalent of technology. There are numerous physical reasons to explain how EMP works, why it shorts out electronics but doesn't kill people even though our nervous systems rely on electrical charges.

Anti-magic does not operate on the same logic as EMP, since the same force behind magic is almost never depicted as underlying human biology. There are a few settings here and there which try to explain magic as being fundamental to reality continuing to exist (like Buffyverse magic being required for human creativity), but most of these efforts are half-hearted at best.

Quote from: S'mon;1056047Elder Sign? Or is that a sub-HPL writer?

D&D treatment of magic is very similar to how you see it treated in comics, certainly Superhero comics (& Savage Sword of Conan) of that era.

Originally the elder sign was a simple religious prohibition, but in Call of Cthulhu IIRC the elder sign works along the same lines as crosses repelling vampires. That is much more specific than interrupting a fundamental force of reality.

Superhero comics are their own thing. Again, writers probably use that logic because they are too reliant on a modern education and cannot world build from first principles. Magic being something extraneous to our reality is easier for people with a modern education to understand.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1056089Superhero comics are their own thing. Again, writers probably use that logic because they are too reliant on a modern education and cannot world build from first principles. Magic being something extraneous to our reality is easier for people with a modern education to understand.

Yes.

I think you'd be happier if you accepted that D&D is not a Universal Generic Fantasy Role-Playing System. It's "shit they thought would be fun", to quote Monard. Super hero comics (including Marvel Conan) were definitely a big influence. It definitely is not intended to model myths, or fairy-tales. Or how pre-modern people viewed (& view) the world.

Edit: Notably, with the 1930s-1970s Modernist ethos, it doesn't really do Post-Modernist tropes very well either, though 2e Planescape gave "Belief Creates Reality" a good try.

Thing is. Even faerie tale magic tends to lean to being either structured or at least reliable. Casting Polymorph works every time unless someone has a counter or in rare cases resists all or part of the spell. Some require components to cast. Etc. D&D draws heavily from that as well.

Lovecraft's magic, and sometimes even science was esoteric in that it bridged the gaps between supernatural and science. Spells were akin to mathematical formula or mental exercises that served as a trigger. If you say these words at this time then something WILL happen. If you deviate then something might happen. Or might do something you dont want. Magic also tended to take alot of study and research to grasp. Howards magic is much the same and borrows heavily from Lovecraft's ideas, including the risk of sanity loss.

Then toss in Vance's system and mix well and you have the basis for D&D. Relatively reliable magic. But some spells come at a cost or risk. Either to the caster, or via risk of failure such as the target resists it, or someone disrupts the casting.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1056089These implied conceits should not be forced on to campaigns settings that are not trying to emulate post-apocalyptic settings like that. Honestly, in that context anti-magic seems closer to EMP if magic is supposed to be the equivalent of technology. There are numerous physical reasons to explain how EMP works, why it shorts out electronics but doesn't kill people even though our nervous systems rely on electrical charges.

Anti-magic does not operate on the same logic as EMP, since the same force behind magic is almost never depicted as underlying human biology. There are a few settings here and there which try to explain magic as being fundamental to reality continuing to exist (like Buffyverse magic being required for human creativity), but most of these efforts are half-hearted at best.

You can argue that lots of things shouldn't be forced on campaign settings - Elves, Dwarves, Tieflings, a cartoon conception of religion that makes absolutely no fucking sense - but you know - it's D&D cruft accumulates - like it or not, it abides.

And I'm not sure what your point is about EMP.  You seem to be going off on some kind of tangent that I have a hard time relating to anything I said,.  I certainly didn't say magic=technology.

Back on topic.

For those who have dealt with it. How do you handle someone casting Control Animal or equivalents in someone in an animal form? Works? Doesnt Work? Allow a save?

As a DM I allow spells like that to work on Polymorphed subjects as polymorph effects the mind as well as the body.

With shapechanges where the mind is intact I tend to look at the spell used and just how powerful the caster is vs the target. And have a talk with the player if necessary. If the player thinks its fime to have their character effected while shapechanged then there we go. I allow a save in either case as makes sense and is fair to the player.

Quote from: Omega;1056154How do you handle someone casting Control Animal or equivalents in someone in an animal form? Works? Doesnt Work? Allow a save?

As a DM I allow spells like that to work on Polymorphed subjects as polymorph effects the mind as well as the body.

I would say no. The druid retains their human mind and mental stats. I also wouldn't let Control Animal allow a PC to take control of a demon that was in animal form or a werewolf, for example. Control Animal is only for natural animals.

Quote from: jhkim;1056158I would say no. The druid retains their human mind and mental stats. I also wouldn't let Control Animal allow a PC to take control of a demon that was in animal form or a werewolf, for example. Control Animal is only for natural animals.

Same here if its shapechanges rather than polymorphing. Polymorphing the demon into a frog and then nailing it with control animal Id allow. Probably with a save.

Quote from: drhellier;1055625In general, they did a decent job of making the druid tame compared to 3.5. I made a druid with templates that could either be an effective spellcaster or an amazing tank. And, if I wanted to not do anything, I had my pet with templates too. I was a flying grappling, tank when necessary and a stand in the background spellcaster too. Tank my flying dire tiger and summon creatures for help = untouchable. So, they did a good job with leveling it out. Also, any class can be OP in 5e. I had a flying monk with a 20 AC when holding my kensai weapon. And using my Kai points I would hit for up to 32 points of damage in one turn - all at level 4. There are ways to do it anywhere if you look.

To add to your nightmare a bit, have the druid dip into monk for one level to get the wisdom ac bonus in wild shape.

Welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: jhkim;1056158I would say no. The druid retains their human mind and mental stats. I also wouldn't let Control Animal allow a PC to take control of a demon that was in animal form or a werewolf, for example. Control Animal is only for natural animals.

As of 5e, the spells animal friendship and dominate beast target "beasts" (the former spell automatically fails if the beast's int score is 4 or higher). This includes both real animals, historical animals (dinosaurs, sabertooth tigers), fictional animals (axebeak, flying snake, stirge), intelligent and/or magical/psychic animals (tressym, cranium rat). The polymorph spell does not specify if the target's type changes as well, but if the target's type does change to beast then it would be subject to spells which target beasts. This seems to be something placed squarely in the DM's control.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1056477As of 5e, the spells animal friendship and dominate beast target "beasts" (the former spell automatically fails if the beast's int score is 4 or higher). This includes both real animals, historical animals (dinosaurs, sabertooth tigers), fictional animals (axebeak, flying snake, stirge), intelligent and/or magical/psychic animals (tressym, cranium rat). The polymorph spell does not specify if the target's type changes as well, but if the target's type does change to beast then it would be subject to spells which target beasts. This seems to be something placed squarely in the DM's control.

The druid takes the shape of a beast; but retains the benefit of any features of class, race or other source (except senses like darkvision, unless the beast shape has the same sense). I would say that type (or the benefit of being a humanoid and not a beast) would mean that Dominate Beast would not affect such a druid. (And they should still have better than a 3 INT.)

Polymorph changes the target into another creature; it retains only alignment and personality and otherwise uses all of the game statistics of the creature turned into instead. So, Dominate Beast would work; the target now has the beast type as one of its statistics.

On the issue of whether Moon Druids are overpowered below 20th level, I have to say no after playing one to 19th level. The shapes available scale at one third the party's level, so they aren't all that powerful. Elementals are somewhat better (against many opponents, even at high levels, they effectively have double the hit points because of resistance to non-magical weapon damage, but they use both wild shapes), but the fire elemental is the only one with a useful special ability (setting many opponents on fire by moving through them). The fire elemental only has 102 HP and the last time I used that I got targeted by Power Word Kill after taking some damage. (This engendered an argument over whether the 150 HPs as a druid counted as "having at least 100 HP"; apparently the Sage Advice ruling on this is stupid and says it kills the druid; fortunately I had Death Ward from the Cleric so the argument turned out to be moot. But I rethought the use of Wild Shape after that; only a few Wild Shapes have 100 HP, and all of them can expect to drop under pretty fast. But that spell is the only drawback to constant Wild Shaping for the 20th level Moon Druid.)

My experience is that 17-20th level adventures depend a lot on Counterspell (by both sides) and Moon Druids can't help with that. HP are significant and Moon Druids get a lot, but without the unlimited Wild Shapes the Barbarian is a better tank. After reaching 17th level, I was more useful with Shapechange to turn into a beholder than using Wild Shape.

Initially the detractors were freaking over the damage potential. When that was shot down they shifted focus to the HP potential.

And honestly the wildshape ability makes the druid a potential damage sponge. They may get hit more which might mitigate that. But getting essentially 3 (correction: 2) big boosts of temp HP could be a big thing. We saw this with Kefra's Druid PC and was part of why we started trying to figure out some limits that made sense. Kefra was the one who suggested the KO on beast shape kill as it made the most sense.

Even if all you have worked up to is the Black Bear form that is still 34 temp HP every use. Normal druid can use the bear at level 8. Moon druid at level 2.  The only class that comes close is the Warlock using Armour of Agathys which for a warlock tops out at 25 HP.

Wild Shape as a combat pillar is milquetoast.  As an exploration pillar it is ridiculous.  I'm so glad I don't have one in my game -- the Totem Barbarian with Speak with Animals and the Ranger with Animal Friendship are enough of a headache.  Although it did create an awesome moment for our new Ranger player when she charmed a plesiosaur and the party rode that along the coast to a trading post.

Quote from: Omega;1056590Initially the detractors were freaking over the damage potential. When that was shot down they shifted focus to the HP potential.

And honestly the wildshape ability makes the druid a potential damage sponge. They may get hit more which might mitigate that. But getting essentially 3 big boosts of temp HP could be a big thing. We saw this with Kefra's Druid PC and was part of why we started trying to figure out some limits that made sense. Kefra was the one who suggested the KO on beast shape kill as it made the most sense.

Even if all you have worked up to is the Black Bear form that is still 34 temp HP every use. Normal druid can use the bear at level 8. Moon druid at level 2.  The only class that comes close is the Warlock using Armour of Agathys which for a warlock tops out at 25 HP.

Shapechange can boost HP a lot with a better AC and confer a variety of magical abilities (although not spell casting); only once per long rest, but Wild Shape below 20th level is only twice per short rest or once for elementals. At the cost of mental abilities and some saving throws, Polymorph would let a high level warlock turn into a higher CR beast more times per short rest. And there are various Conjure spells that bring in allies with lots of HP to soak damage (but the risk of losing concentration balances that).

The 20th level druid who can Wild Shape without limit is still better from the HP point of view.

oops, you are correct. It is only 2 per short or long rest.

That actually brings it more or less in line with a Warlock with Armour of Agathys after a few levels and they can cast it twice per short rest at a better output level.

I just never allow druids.