In general, they did a decent job of making the druid tame compared to 3.5. I made a druid with templates that could either be an effective spellcaster or an amazing tank. And, if I wanted to not do anything, I had my pet with templates too. I was a flying grappling, tank when necessary and a stand in the background spellcaster too. Tank my flying dire tiger and summon creatures for help = untouchable. So, they did a good job with leveling it out. Also, any class can be OP in 5e. I had a flying monk with a 20 AC when holding my kensai weapon. And using my Kai points I would hit for up to 32 points of damage in one turn - all at level 4. There are ways to do it anywhere if you look.

To add to your nightmare a bit, have the druid dip into monk for one level to get the wisdom ac bonus in wild shape.

Quote from: drhellier;1055625In general, they did a decent job of making the druid tame compared to 3.5. I made a druid with templates that could either be an effective spellcaster or an amazing tank. And, if I wanted to not do anything, I had my pet with templates too. I was a flying grappling, tank when necessary and a stand in the background spellcaster too. Tank my flying dire tiger and summon creatures for help = untouchable. So, they did a good job with leveling it out. Also, any class can be OP in 5e. I had a flying monk with a 20 AC when holding my kensai weapon. And using my Kai points I would hit for up to 32 points of damage in one turn - all at level 4. There are ways to do it anywhere if you look.

To add to your nightmare a bit, have the druid dip into monk for one level to get the wisdom ac bonus in wild shape.

The AC bonus may not stack depending on what WOTC eventually ruled. I know it does not with the barbarian Barbarian AC bonus for example. But I think it does still work for Druids. And keep in mind that not all animal forms have high enough DEX to matter. But might work for a Druid in say Cat form (DEX mod +2) or Giant Eagle (DEX mod +3). Whereas the Brown Bear has a DEX mod of 0 while Mammoth has a -1.

So it is YMMV is multiclassing into Monk would be worth the long term loss of unlimited use of wildshape.

And on a side note I updated the old thread over on BGG cataloguing all the beast shapes.

So, how does Disintegrate work against a shape changed Druid?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1055632So, how does Disintegrate work against a shape changed Druid?

AFAIK you still turn to dust at 0 hp.

BTW I GM'd Quillax the Moon Druid from 1st to 18th level (player wrote most of the session accounts in that link) and I'd say over that span it was a well balanced, competent but not game breaking class. She never multiclassed and I would lean towards having the animal stats fully replace the PC stats (except INT/WIS/CHA) when wildshaping, so no game-breaking exploits were attempted.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1055632So, how does Disintegrate work against a shape changed Druid?

By the 5e rules if it reduces the shapechanged druid to 0 HP. They are destroyed as they never get the chance to revert. This was clarified in one of the errata.

QuoteQ: What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to
0 hit points by disintegrate? Does the druid simply leave
beast form?
A: The druid turns to dust, since the spell disinte-
grates you the instant you drop to 0 hit points.

Wildshape provides too much free HP.

But if the HP wasn't free, the low AC would make ever using wildshape to smack things prohibitive.

A great mechanical solution: Keep your HP and AC while wildshape even if it doesn't make sense (like wearing a shield).

A more immersive solution: Lose the same percentage of health to your base form that the animal form lost.
You may spend expend the animals HD to heal during a short rest that is separate from your own.

Reason: This allows for wildshape to be less costly if you have time post combat to heal up, while preventing it from being a giant HP buffer for your side in-combat.

Jeez, what's with people necro-ing my drivel all over the internet lately.

The "low ac balances it" is wrong. In older versions of AD&D, the loss of 4 points of AC (the typical loss here) was a big deal, especially at low levels. But 5e has shifted "low" quite a bit. So, what in, say, 3e, would mean an effective 400% increase in damage from reducing AC (and similar for older versions), is now only around a 50% bonus. Adding a couple hundred hit points more than offsets that at low level (and being able to "bonus action" in more HP on top of that) makes for mathematically pointless combats (that the other players can ignore while the druid solos it), on top of the hit points all being basically free.

Basically I just tossed Moon Druid from the game; the other type of druid isn't so insane, although it's tough to adapt adventures to realistically account for the built-in shape change which should be accounted for if the fantasy world really evolved.

It's easier bookkeeping to just keep your PC's Hit Points and open up access to forms that use fly/swim/climb/burrow/etc. As long as the CR progression range is kept low, you have a disgustingly powerful Exploration and Social feature. That switch from Combat to "the other two game pillars" is essentially a de facto archetype ban on some tables.

Also, any tiny CR critter that can take more than one good hit is AWESOME roleplay consequences. "Why, squire, does that sparrow not die to my falcon's dive?" "I don't know, my lord. Fell magics, perhaps? Should we see?"

Quote from: Opaopajr;1055666It's easier bookkeeping to just keep your PC's Hit Points and open up access to forms that use fly/swim/climb/burrow/etc. As long as the CR progression range is kept low, you have a disgustingly powerful Exploration and Social feature. That switch from Combat to "the other two game pillars" is essentially a de facto archetype ban on some tables.

Also, any tiny CR critter that can take more than one good hit is AWESOME roleplay consequences. "Why, squire, does that sparrow not die to my falcon's dive?" "I don't know, my lord. Fell magics, perhaps? Should we see?"

Exploration I get, but help me to understand how Wild Shape is "disgustingly powerful" in the Social pillar.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1055672Exploration I get

IME shapes useful for exploration are extremely vulnerable*, and a solo Wildshape-scouting druid in a dungeon is taking a huge risk. In any case a Wizard familiar can do the same without danger to PC life.

I don't recall any combat so trivial our Wildhaped druid could handle it alone. If she could handle it, the Goliath Barbarian could certainly handle it!

Basically, the Moon Druid power certainly looks OP at level 2, and is very strong through low levels, but increasingly insignificant at high levels when other classes can do things a lot more impressive. In double digit levels it became rare for the Moon Druid to Wildshape, while she could still tank, more commonly she would rely on her spells while the Barbarian took the front.

*A few weeks back we had a wildshaping druid turn into a crocodile to explore submerged tunnels into a black dragon's lair... was very lucky to make it back alive (just)!

There is a-lot of free HP in 5e. Everything from short rests to easily available basic healing potions to shapechange healing to some spells that grant temp extra HP.
For the Druid it kinda works as Moon path ones have that tendency to be on the front lines. But I think there should be some sort of penalty for effectively getting killed in beast form.
Thats up to the individual groups to figure out really.

But from watching Kefra and her Moon Druid in action we bounced around with the DM some ideas. Heres another one we tried.
1: Gain a level of exhaustion. A druid taking a-lot of risks could after a few short rests potentially kill themselves through accumulated exhaustion. Otherwise its stull going to leave them impaired if they got offed over three uses. And it gives a use for the oddly underused exhaustion rules.
2: Is knocked unconscious. This was the most bothersome part of the whole shapechange thing. You just effectively got killed but are awake and just fine?
3: Make a save or lose half your remaining HP on reversion. Though we found that the exhaustion and KO were overall enough to add some threat to shapechange deaths as being KOed leaves the person potentially very vulnerable.

Quote from: S'mon;1055673Basically, the Moon Druid power certainly looks OP at level 2, and is very strong through low levels, but increasingly insignificant at high levels when other classes can do things a lot more impressive. In double digit levels it became rare for the Moon Druid to Wildshape, while she could still tank, more commonly she would rely on her spells while the Barbarian took the front.

This was the same conclusion we came to over on BGG. Even with the shapechange healing potential the wildshapes started to drop off in usefullness after about level 5 or so. YMMV of course.

Quote from: Omega;1055677This was the same conclusion we came to over on BGG. Even with the shapechange healing potential the wildshapes started to drop off in usefullness after about level 5 or so. YMMV of course.

From what I recall, the animal forms CR 1 (lvl 2-5) and CR 2 (6-8) are very good. CR 3 (9-11) are still useful, but by 11th level spellcasting is generally the better option, and there aren't many high CR beast forms.

Its not just that there are no good high CR animals. If your Druid has never been to a prehistoric themed area then there are NO high CR beasts at all. Or giant animals are few o none.

at CR 6 There is just the Mammoth.
At CR 5 theres the Giant Croc, Giant shark and Triceratops
At CR 4 at least theres the elephant which might or might not be a rare sight in your campaign.
At CR 3 Ankylosaurus, Giant Scorpion, Killer Whale
And so on.
Even at CR 2 its alot of giant animals and a dinosaur. But at least theres some common animals to gain access to.
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Heres the extra animals I collected from the other books so far.

Volo's Guide adds some more beasts.

Auroch CR2
Cow CR1/4
Dolphin CR1/8

Cranium Rat CR0

Dimetrodon CR1/4
Brontosaurus CR5
Deinonychus CR1
Hadrosaurus CR1/4
Quetzalcoatalus CR2
Stegosaurus CR4
Velociraptor CR1/4

Kobold Inventor has a Skunk. No rating but Id say its CR0


Plane-Shift: Kaladesh adds one more

Gremlin CR1/2

Out of the Abyss adds 2 more

Female Steeder CR1
Male Steeder CR1/4
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Some more beasts to add!

Nothing new in Xanithars Guide. But it does add rules for limiting what animals a Druid knows based on the region they are from. Also new druid spells.

Oddly nothing new in Mordenkainens Tome.

Plane Shift Zendikar
Baloth: same stats and CR as a Triceratops. Woodcrasher Baloths also have a climbing Speed of 30
Murasa Oxen: same stats and CR as a giant goat.
Terastodon: same stats and CR as a mammoth.
Scythe Leopard: same stats and CR as a sabertooth.
Terra Stomper: same stats and CT as a T-Rex (which puts it outside the bounds of a druid but not outside the bounds possibly of some spells.)

Plane Shift Kaladesh
Missed this one. The Sky Leviathan, CR10. (which puts it outside the bounds of a druid but not outside the bounds possibly of some spells.)
And another missed. Drakes: Small ones use the Pteranodon and larger ones use the Giant Eagle.

Plane Shift Amonkhet
Drakes: Small ones use the Pteranodon and larger ones use the Giant Eagle.
Serpopard CR3
Cerodon: same stats and CR as a mammoth with the additional ability to deal double damage to structures and objects.

Plane Shift Ixalan
Brontodon: same as Brontosaurus from Volo.
Ceratops: same as a Triceratops
Aegisaur: uses Ankylosaur
Armasaur: uses Stegosaur from Volo.
Hammer Skulls: uses Giant Goat.
Aerosaur: use the Pteranodon or Quetzalquatalus from Volo.
Sailback: uses Giant Crocodile
Frilled Deathspitter CR1/2
Regisaur: uses T-Rex
Gishath, Sun's Avatar CR10. Another one outside the bounds of a Druid.
Macaw and Parrot: same as Raven
Horned Frog: same as giant frog
Piranha: same as Quippers and quipper swarms
Trilobite: same as Crab and Giant Crab

Plane Shift Dominaria
Kavu Predator CR2
Steel Keaf Kavu CR4

There might have been one or two missed as they were just reskins effectively but pretty sure bot all of them could pin down. Alot of repurposed beasts which is great as it gives DMs ideas and examples of how to go about this.