Since I don't hang out on any other boards I thought I would ask here.

Can you take a bonus action as your normal action?

Seems logically you should be able to but no rules cover this that I can find.

So could I healing word which is a bonus action spell and bardic inspire which is a bonus action.

They are defined as bonus action only things.

and could you break the system if you allowed it?

Per RAW no. It outright states you can only take one bonus action per round.

However since bonus action are usually actions with special conditions. In short more limited in scope than the usual choice. What combination you are thinking of?

Although i can't recall seeing it addressed specifically, it's heavily implied that a bonus action is only a bonus action. You can certainly only take 1 bonus action per round in the rules.

Another thing to remember is that certain bonus actions are only available when specific regular actions are taken.

For example, an off-hand attack is a bonus action that you can take when you take the attack action.

All bonus actions are not the same and may have different requirements for taking them.

Yeah, there is a bit of ambiguity there since not all bonus actions are the same.  But as a general rule per RAW or implication:

you can only ever take one bonus action per round
you can take your bonus action before your regular action unless something specifically states otherwise (like EW's off hand attack example).

Right now, I'm playing a Shadow Monk with the magic initiate feat (hex spell, which is a bonus action spell).

That means that I cannot cast hex on a target, and then shadow step in the same turn since they are both bonus actions even if I weren't taking another action.  It does mean I can take my bonus action first to shadow step, then my regular action to move and attack in the same turn.  In fact, the text in shadow step seems to imply you would do that part first.

That all being said, if at your table you are OK to replace a standard action with another bonus actions, then do it.  5e has gone back to the TSR philosophy or rulings not rules.  Knock yourself out.

Well my example above of the Bardic INspiration and Healing word is what brought this up in my mind. I play a bard that is focused on healing and support.

I had the thought "I can do that" then realized per Raw I can't.

I was pretty sure about the RAW but thought maybe I missed something and wanted to ask.


I was trying to understand the ramifications if it was allowed. and also was it purposely designed that way to maybe lock out some nasty combo, which I suspect they may have been doing in some other design choices.

Mostly was just a thought, and we all know how dangerous those are

Quote from: Sacrosanct;795323That means that I cannot cast hex on a target, and then shadow step in the same turn since they are both bonus actions even if I weren't taking another action.  It does mean I can take my bonus action first to shadow step, then my regular action to move and attack in the same turn.  In fact, the text in shadow step seems to imply you would do that part first.

Per RAW you are right, on page 79 of the Basic Rules it states

QuoteA spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

The part in bold contradicts the part in italics notably where it says must. You must cast a bonus action spell as a bonus action and not a spell? That makes no sense in terms of the implied setting. If it is fast enough to be cast using a bonus action then it is slow enough to be cast using your normal action. Provided you don't violate the no casting more than one spells (other than a cantrip) rule.

So I would rule that you can cast hex with your action and shadow step using your bonus action. After which you can move, do a incidental action, and/or a reaction.

Your interpretation is reasonable. Where I come from is that in my mind the purpose of an RPG is a tool to help the referee manage the players while they are experiencing a setting. If a rule doesn't make sense in the reality of the setting it needs to go or be modified. In my opinion this is such a case.

Also note this ruling is confined to spells with a casting time of bonus action due to the specific wording used to describe why spells have a casting time of bonus action.

Thanks. I was aware of the two spells in one turn rule having just ready that part (again) this week.

But rouges get Cunning action gives them actions that are normal actions as bonus actions.  Which then implies bonus actions take the same amount of time as normal actions (except for some spells, I guess)

I mean I can run it however I want but was more wondering if anyone thought this was a design intent and if so why?

I haven't seen any ground breaking combos if you allowed bonus actions as actions but then again have only read the books and only played up to 3rd so far.

QuoteA spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

Quote from: estar;795349The part in bold contradicts the part in italics notably where it says must. You must cast a bonus action spell as a bonus action and not a spell? That makes no sense in terms of the implied setting. If it is fast enough to be cast using a bonus action then it is slow enough to be cast using your normal action. Provided you don't violate the no casting more than one spells (other than a cantrip) rule.

I fail to see the contradiction; the part in italics is explaining what must happen for a spell cast with a bonus action.  If a spell is cast with a bonus action, you must use a bonus action and do so on your turn.  It doesn't say that the same spell can't be cast another way (and I agree that it does seem reasonable).

It would be good to get a clarification that any bonus action, that does not require a particular action to have been taken and for which there is no other specific prohibition (e.g., only one non-cantrip per turn), can be used as a regular action, or a list of those that can't.  A summary of all bonus actions in one place would be nice too.

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;795358But rouges get Cunning action gives them actions that are normal actions as bonus actions.  Which then implies bonus actions take the same amount of time as normal actions (except for some spells, I guess)

I think it means that Rogues can do quickly enough to be a bonus action, ordinary things that are not quick.  It even says so: "your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly."  Similarly, Sorcerers can use "Quickened Spell" to speed up 1 action casting to 1 bonus action casting.

There is no contradiction because they are speaking in Magic the Gathering speak. "Bonus Action," is essentially a keyword now, just like "Attack Action." It is a specific noun phrase tied into framework placement. Bonus Action spells may only be used during the Bonus Action segment of a Player's Turn. Since it is not contingent upon a conditional action to be granted, it may be ordered wherever the player likes within their Acting Turn within the Round (whereas Reactions are explicitly outside a player's Acting Turn, up until their next Acting Turn).

As for Two-Weapon Fighting, that's a Conditional Attack Action granting a Conditional Bonus Attack Action. One must happen before the other, and the condition must be met on both. So you cannot re-assign the bonus attack action first, because it is contingent on the former to be created — and that bonus action cannot be used for other conditioned attacks, a la non-thrown property, non-light, non-melee weapon attacks. Yes, a bit legalistic, but you get used to it soon enough.

Forgot about the "can only cast Cantrips with casting time of 1 action" after casting a Bonus Action Spell. I might have boo-booed on that recently. Gotta remind my playgroup.

Quote from: Opaopajr;795475There is no contradiction because they are speaking in Magic the Gathering speak. "Bonus Action," is essentially a keyword now, just like "Attack Action." It is a specific noun phrase tied into framework placement. Bonus Action spells may only be used during the Bonus Action segment of a Player's Turn. Since it is not contingent upon a conditional action to be granted, it may be ordered wherever the player likes within their Acting Turn within the Round (whereas Reactions are explicitly outside a player's Acting Turn, up until their next Acting Turn).

As for Two-Weapon Fighting, that's a Conditional Attack Action granting a Conditional Bonus Attack Action. One must happen before the other, and the condition must be met on both. So you cannot re-assign the bonus attack action first, because it is contingent on the former to be created — and that bonus action cannot be used for other conditioned attacks, a la non-thrown property, non-light, non-melee weapon attacks. Yes, a bit legalistic, but you get used to it soon enough.

Forgot about the "can only cast Cantrips with casting time of 1 action" after casting a Bonus Action Spell. I might have boo-booed on that recently. Gotta remind my playgroup.

To make the Action rules make logical sense though there should be a rule that said "You can take any Action as your Normal Action for the round provided any conditions have been met"

For clarity, yes, I would find the redundancy helpful. There is actually a lot of stuff in there that interacts with each other, so it can get confusing at times. However, it works within the exclusionary design framework which is completely compatible with CCGs, and thus the big kahuna M:tG.

Probably gives jollies to the forget-which-fucking-MtG-archetype (spike, johnny, tim, vorthos?) who likes to scry the rules pool for exploits. They know their hardcore fans at the very least. Makes determining "how the fuck do I use a net without disadvantage?" more mini-game than common sense explicit, but whatever.

It's an OK second choice of D&D! :pundit: /ringing endorsement