Despite my loathing for the term "build", I like the quick build tips they add to these - it means you can make an "advanced" character about as quickly as a "basic" one, and it's a good sign that you should be able to make a competent character who can pull their weight and still have room to make choices based on roleplaying and flavour.

Quote from: Marleycat;773475Attacks don't stack like 3e.It's quite explicit in that to get any more then 2 attacks in some way you have to take 11 fighter levels. You might be able to get a faux 4th attack like a barbarian or war cleric but I am not convinced. The only other way of getting 2 attacks without 5 fighter levels is some combination of war cleric, barbarian, valor bard, paladin or ranger of 8 levels. Which leaves only a single classed fighter access to 4 attacks as it should be.

That was certainly true in the last 'open' play test packet.

The loooooooooooooooooooong opening paragraphs of these where they explain what the character class is with flowery, excessive verbiage is just so much wasted space and unnecessary extra page count.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;773572The loooooooooooooooooooong opening paragraphs of these where they explain what the character class is with flowery, excessive verbiage is just so much wasted space and unnecessary extra page count.

Mostly agree, but I think with targeting younger players again, they put the flavor text in there.

Some people like flavor text.  some people hate it and think it's a waste of space.  Some people don't care either way.  It's one of those "you can't please everyone" type of deals.  IMO, better to have it and ignore it, than to want it and not have it.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;773572The loooooooooooooooooooong opening paragraphs of these where they explain what the character class is with flowery, excessive verbiage is just so much wasted space and unnecessary extra page count.

You just described the worst thing about nearly every 'high production value' gaming product published in the last 30 years. The basic writing in most gaming books is an abomination, and the biggest sin is the verbose, windy, flowery crap that passes for color commentary. One reason why it used to be possible to present a playable, even complex game in a 64 page stapled book is that few games wasted space on this stuff.

Imagine what the rule book for Squad Leader contained three pages of drivel explaining what it feels like to be a mortar round. Or, closer to home, what if Steve Jackson had pumped up Melee with 100 pages of color text about gladiators? There are plenty of well crafted, timeless games that didn't fold in all this filler. And they were better for it.

Part of the challenge of a game book is that it serves as a tutorial, a reference, and a working manual, and each of those goals have different optimizations.

So RPGs suffer from trying to be good enough in all areas to work.

One thing I like about games with OGL is that you can have all the flowery crap and THEN someone can come up with the concise 'brass tacks' stuff to actually work with.

Quote from: Larsdangly;773575You just described the worst thing about nearly every 'high production value' gaming product published in the last 30 years. The basic writing in most gaming books is an abomination, and the biggest sin is the verbose, windy, flowery crap that passes for color commentary. One reason why it used to be possible to present a playable, even complex game in a 64 page stapled book is that few games wasted space on this stuff.

The Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit 1 was a wake up call to how much rules could be packed into a small pamphlet:)

God, if only there was a game that eliminated all that prose and flavor and just gave us the mechanics.

Quote from: Larsdangly;773577Imagine what the rule book for Squad Leader contained three pages of drivel explaining what it feels like to be a mortar round. Or, closer to home, what if Steve Jackson had pumped up Melee with 100 pages of color text about gladiators? There are plenty of well crafted, timeless games that didn't fold in all this filler. And they were better for it.

1) Are either of them actually RPGs?
2) I do love the historical background explanations in scenario books of GMT games. Different strokes, different folks? For me, that prose when done right, is the favourite part of the book to read, as it puts me in the mood for gaming.

Quote from: JonWake;773582God, if only there was a game that eliminated all that prose and flavor and just gave us the mechanics.

.

I like rules interspersed with light fluff myself.  Palladium RPG 1st, AS&SH, and such.  If a setting is included, I want only the skeleton.

Elaborating on my last point, I think fluff material is useful... once.

I want to read through and get the context, where the developers were going with concepts. Once.

After THAT I just want the rules, man.

But we're not quite at the point of context-reshaping ebooks.

Quote from: Larsdangly;773575You just described the worst thing about nearly every 'high production value' gaming product published in the last 30 years. The basic writing in most gaming books is an abomination, and the biggest sin is the verbose, windy, flowery crap that passes for color commentary. One reason why it used to be possible to present a playable, even complex game in a 64 page stapled book is that few games wasted space on this stuff.

Semi-related: Last week I had dinner with a really cool dude that freelances for Paizo. We were talking about a PDF project of mine (Totally unrelated to Paizo or Pathfinder) and discussing various options for the probably-just-not-meant-to-be physical book. He had an "Jesus Christ what the fuck is wrong with you" reaction when I brought up doing it with black-and-white interior art. Apparently in the hip big-time RPG circles that he runs in THAT IS JUST NOT DONE ANYMORE and is considered one step above running out grainy bestiality porn on used butcher's paper in the prison print shop at midnight. I almost piped back with "But some of the greatest RPG books of all time had B&W interior art" but decided to just shut up and die inside a little.

I am firmly in the "Simpler is usually better" camp. I think that glossy over-production and the resulting over-pricing has just about killed comic books and it's well on it's way to strangling this hobby as well.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;773591I am firmly in the "Simpler is usually better" camp. I think that glossy over-production and the resulting over-pricing has just about killed comic books and it's well on it's way to strangling this hobby as well.

I just want the product to be durable and stand up to regular use.  Hardcover, softcover, staple bound_ whatever.  Palladium books are bombproof.

I will be playing Grizzly Adams, Barbarian for now on.