I'm no "4venger" - what I've seen of 4e sucked donkey balls imo - but I think the label is childish and idiotic.

Same goes for the earlier "3tard" or whatever the fuck they call them at Dragonsfoot.

Quote from: Melan;561074I love the character assassination campaign against Greg Tito. I also love how it stays unchallenged by the same moderators who would, and have banned users for saying marginally bad stuff about 4e.

It's not really a surprising. Ettin and his fellow tender warrior Cirno have made themselves quite the little niche of insulting whoever doesn't fit their myopic little worldview of what RPGs should be and getting at most a slap on the wrist. They're poster boys for a particularly loathsome breed of gamer; those that desperately wish to be seen as "industry insiders" without going through the heavy lifting of actually having produced something other then smug asides on message boards.

 They spend all their free time haunting blogs and message boards like some sort of deranged stalker till they find a quote they can leap on, take out of context and wave like a flag for their cause.  Or if that fails pull something directly out of their collective asses and pass it off as truth. Despite being proven wrong or caught in outright lies by the designers they attack time and time again they're still allowed to keep spewing without recourse. Why should this time be any different?

4vengers or 4rons, however you want to label them, they view the game of 4E to be more of a Scientology style religion than an actual game. The game of 4E is not that offensive (although it does not appeal to many), but the behavior of those vocal minority fans of 4E is offensive.

You can be a fan of 4E and not be a 4venger or 4ron.

Quote from: SneakyPete;561090Ettin

I was thinking about it and, even more than Rand and Kai's bullshit moderation, Ettin ruins that forum. Because he's a shit. And you're not allowed to call him on it.

Seems that a lot of people take things too far. Every version of dnd has good and bad points. What is so difficult about saying:

"I don't really care for Pathfinder as a dm, but they did add some interesting character classes"

"Or, I like 1E but I wish it had a skill system."

"I like the way monsters work in 4E but dislike healing surges"

 
Instead, people say "All games but my prefered one are the Devil!"

Quote from: SneakyPete;561090It's not really a surprising. Ettin and his fellow tender warrior Cirno have made themselves quite the little niche of insulting whoever doesn't fit their myopic little worldview of what RPGs should be and getting at most a slap on the wrist. They're poster boys for a particularly loathsome breed of gamer; those that desperately wish to be seen as "industry insiders" without going through the heavy lifting of actually having produced something other then smug asides on message boards.

 They spend all their free time haunting blogs and message boards like some sort of deranged stalker till they find a quote they can leap on, take out of context and wave like a flag for their cause.  Or if that fails pull something directly out of their collective asses and pass it off as truth. Despite being proven wrong or caught in outright lies by the designers they attack time and time again they're still allowed to keep spewing without recourse. Why should this time be any different?

Welcome to the RPG Site, Pete.

You are spot on with this post.

Quote from: Bill;561114Seems that a lot of people take things too far. Every version of dnd has good and bad points. What is so difficult about saying:

"I don't really care for Pathfinder as a dm, but they did add some interesting character classes"

"Or, I like 1E but I wish it had a skill system."

"I like the way monsters work in 4E but dislike healing surges"

 
Instead, people say "All games but my prefered one are the Devil!"

I am even fine with "i didn't care for edition x, but i can see why others might like it". For me this stuff becomes an issue when someone tells me my opinion or playstyle is wrong when there is so much room for different points of view.

Quote from: Bill;561114Seems that a lot of people take things too far. Every version of dnd has good and bad points. What is so difficult about saying:

"I don't really care for Pathfinder as a dm, but they did add some interesting character classes"

"Or, I like 1E but I wish it had a skill system."

"I like the way monsters work in 4E but dislike healing surges"

 
Instead, people say "All games but my prefered one are the Devil!"

You're correct, but it's the internet.  I guess some people like to lash out like wild men when the same behavior in person would land them in a loony bin.

No edition is free from its fanbois.  Just me personally, but you I can't take a person seriously who complains about 4vengers being idiots while at at the same time saying WotC D&D isn't real D&D.

Quote from: jeff37923;561094You can be a fan of 4E and not be a 4venger or 4ron.

The perfect example is Windjammer, a self-admitted "Heinsoo fanboy" but not a 4venger by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from: Bill;561114Seems that a lot of people take things too far. Every version of dnd has good and bad points. What is so difficult about saying:

"I don't really care for Pathfinder as a dm, but they did add some interesting character classes"

"Or, I like 1E but I wish it had a skill system."

"I like the way monsters work in 4E but dislike healing surges"

 
Instead, people say "All games but my prefered one are the Devil!"

I'm much less inclined to agree there. To me this smacks of being nice for the sake of being nice, and reminds me too much of the "I'm with D&D ... all editions" stickers on ENWorld and DF. If you think that you're not really into Pathfinder but think that some of the classes they brought on board were cool, then say so. If you think Pathfinder is a complete shitcake of a game, say so. If you think that 4e is cool but dislike healing surges, say so. If you think it is an absolute farce of a D&D game, say so. Just be ready to deal with the consequences (being challenged, being called an asshole, whatever), is all.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;561082When people say 4e avenger here they dont mean someone who likes 4e or defends it as a playable system. They they are refering to a rather specific collection of posters on other boards who team up and try to "prove" 4e is best. It is mostly tyeir tactics and arguments (rather than their position) people have in mind when they say 4venger. some do use it as a pejorative for all 4e players. Personally I try to avoid the term myself these days because I think it is used as a bit of rhetorical cudgel.

I have a friend, we'll call him Steve (because that's his name).  Steve only played late 2e and then went into 3rd edition and 3.5.  He loved them.  Then, he gamed with me in our Original D&D campaign.  He loved it.  We switched to AD&D.  He loved it.  4e came out, and he loves that.  He has asked me on a couple of occasions to play (but time/scheduling issues prevented it), extolling its virtues.  He's excited about 5e.

Steve is the ideal gamer, above all this shit, this dross.  He loves RPGs.  Steve is not a 4venger.  

The people who run Big Throbbing Purple and lay bans on people who dare speak ill of 4e and in turn let everything prior get dumped on and the people who do it, the people who post at Somethingawful (hello, Halloween Jack)?  They're 4vengers.  They're the stick up the ass, "nobody had fun with older D&D.  It is objectively true"*, hated D&D until 4e, 4e finally got it right because it brought in Forge elements.

...

*=ACTUAL QUOTES.

Like every game A vs. game B debate ever, I think it's less "people who play game A suck because game A sucks", and more of "people who play game A suck because they say game B sucks, which is Objectively Not True because I play game B and it r0xx0rz".

(or so I want to believe. Savage Worlds catches a lot of flak because fanboys suggest using it for everything, without much in the way of disparaging comments towards other games IME. I don't believe that people are essentially good, but I cling to the idea that they're essentially not assholes.)

Anyway, in 4e's case, the fact that the company itself adopted a disparaging discourse towards older editions effectively deputized a small but vocal contingent of 4e fans to adopt the same confrontational and douchey tone. Hence, the "4venger" label, fractured fanbase unlike anything resembling the 3.0e-era edition wars, etc.

I'll ask again: someone prove to me that the people expressing a desire for a 4e clone, are the same people who previously behaved in an inappropriate manner towards fans of other versions of D&D.

Or are people just assuming, because they post at that board, that makes them by definition de-facto bad people?

Quote from: Mistwell;561191I'll ask again: someone prove to me that the people expressing a desire for a 4e clone, are the same people who previously behaved in an inappropriate manner towards fans of other versions of D&D.

Or are people just assuming, because they post at that board, that makes them by definition de-facto bad people?

Actually, I learned a painful lesson as a small pika way back in the late seventies, that 'Guilt by assosiation'... also known for the pithy saying 'lie down with the dogs and rise up with fleas' in many variations... is a real thing.

Its not even particularly a bad thing, though it often seems unfair.

Because: If you don't shun the assholes among you, you are providing them defacto aid and comfort by allowing them to remain members of your community.

In this particular case, the loudest 4vengers, strangely enough, seemed to have been (once upon a time) the very designers and company that made both games... making it particularly problematic to be a fervent booster of 4e without tacitly approving of the 4venger attitude.

So, sir, kindly take your dissembling self elsewhere with that ultra-nice guy bullshit.

Quote from: KenHR;561088I'm no "4venger" - what I've seen of 4e sucked donkey balls imo - but I think the label is childish and idiotic.

Same goes for the earlier "3tard" or whatever the fuck they call them at Dragonsfoot.

Indeed. Anyone who complains about "4venger" tactics while calling them "4vengers" is lacking in the irony meter. If it's not okay for them to do it, it's not okay for you to do it either.

Quote from: Benoist;561150I'm much less inclined to agree there. To me this smacks of being nice for the sake of being nice, and reminds me too much of the "I'm with D&D ... all editions" stickers on ENWorld and DF. If you think that you're not really into Pathfinder but think that some of the classes they brought on board were cool, then say so. If you think Pathfinder is a complete shitcake of a game, say so. If you think that 4e is cool but dislike healing surges, say so. If you think it is an absolute farce of a D&D game, say so. Just be ready to deal with the consequences (being challenged, being called an asshole, whatever), is all.

I find this line of argument to be an excuse for not thinking about what you say before you say it. Or not taking responsibility for saying something stupid and inflammatory. The point of discussion forums, presumably, is to discuss, not declare. If you want to declare, go get yourself a blog. Calling someone an asshole is all fine and good, but does nothing for discussion. In fact, it tends to either end discussion, or more often cause it to deteriorate into pointless name-calling and bitching.