Quote from: Mistwell;560957Here's what I find disturbing about this thread.  You had two reactions from possibly differing groups at different times:

1) Some 4e fans said some things that rightfully bothered fans of other versions of D&D that were discontinued.  Not all 4e fans said those things, just some.

2) Now, some fans of 4e are saying they don't want their game to be discontinued and would like to find some way to continue it, such as with a clone.  Not all 4e fans, but some.

So far, there is no known connection between these two groups.  No evidence at all that the people that did the bad things in #1 are the same as the people who say they like their edition now in #2. If there is such a connection, I'd like someone to post it.

So you'd think the reaction of the previously bothered people would be sympathetic to group #2.  You know how they feel, you wanted people to understand how you felt at the time your edition was discontinued, and assuming you're a good person and follow the golden rule you'd want to do unto others in this situation as you'd have them do unto you.

But that's not the reaction from almost everyone in this thread (with I think two people as exceptions).  Almost universally, the reaction seems to be "serves them right, fuck them, now they know how it feels, haha!"

Now I'd totally understand that if groups #1 and #2 were identical.  But, where's the evidence that is the case?  And without that evidence, aren't you just doing the very thing to someone else that you thought shouldn't have been done to you? Are you not just continuing the cycle of revenge now? Are you not now just as bad as the people you were originally complaining about?

In other words, do you really think that because Person A was a dick to Person B (you), that Person B (you) now should be a dick to Person C? Is that how you'd react to any other issue in life? I mean, if you were at a party and someone spilled a drink on you, would your reaction be to spill a drink on someone else?

Again, if there is a particular individual that you're aware of who was previously a dick , that's now making these comments about a 4e clone, I get it.  But, I'm honestly not seeing that connection, nor could someone rationally claim all 4e fans think and act alike on these kinds of topics.  At best, both groups are minorities of 4e fans, and I'd guess the majority of 4e fans never commented at all on either topic, much less have a great deal of overlap in membership.

Shut up.

Quote from: Azure Lord;561243Shut up.

B.T.?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;561244B.T.?

Two posts, and both are pretty terrible.

Quote from: jhkim;561219There are indeed assholes in my community who imply or openly declare that games other than their preferred style are objectively unfun, and go out of their way to insult games that other people genuinely enjoy.  These people are fucking dicks, and I make no apologies about calling them on their bullshit.

Oh sure, but that's no guarantee that they will leave the community. It's certainly one meaning of shun, but the post (and a later post quoted below) imply that if you allow yourself to remain part of the same "community", regardless of how you interact with those posters, you're complicit in it.

Quote from: Benoist;561229I fundamentally disagree with that line of thought. It's the premise of the "keeping the peace" argument of RPGnet and "Eric's grandma" at ENWorld. I think people have a fundamental right to like what they like and dislike what they dislike. They have a right to post about it if that's what they want, which ALSO means they have a responsibility in the choice of their words, what they decide to post, or not to post, and the reactions they get in return.

There's lots of stuff that we have the right to do, but we shouldn't necessarily do, because it doesn't help anything better, and can often make it worse. That's part of being a productive person: knowing when and where to assert your rights. That's where the people you call "4vengers" fail - they may have gaming preferences but they express them in ways that only cause trouble. They have the right to do it, but wouldn't you prefer that they didn't do it?

My approach to life is "We all have to live here, so don't be a dick." This applies to a great many situations.

Quote from: Spike;561232You are quite welcome to leave if the company doesn't suit you... which is, in fact, the point.

Absolutely not. If there's some community I greatly enjoy, and some dick comes along and makes trouble, I have no responsibility to leave that community in order to disassociate myself from that dick. It's the dick's problem, not mine. And it's your problem if you automatically associate me with that dick, simply because I didn't allow him to make me give up something I enjoy just to be rid of the minor annoyance he ultimately causes.

Quote from: Fifth Element;561272Absolutely not. If there's some community I greatly enjoy, and some dick comes along and makes trouble, I have no responsibility to leave that community in order to disassociate myself from that dick. It's the dick's problem, not mine. And it's your problem if you automatically associate me with that dick, simply because I didn't allow him to make me give up something I enjoy just to be rid of the minor annoyance he ultimately causes.

Well then. When theRPGsite is up first up against the wall, remember that you chose to be assosiated with us scumbags.

I'll stand for no weeping on the firing line, thank you very much.

I just want to say that Mitchell and Webb is some of the funniest stuff I've seen.

Quote from: Spike;561274Well then. When theRPGsite is up first up against the wall, remember that you chose to be assosiated with us scumbags.

I'll stand for no weeping on the firing line, thank you very much.

Yeah, internet message boards about pretending to be elves. Very appropriate analogy you've made there. Not strained at all.

Besides that, you choose to be associated with any "4vengers" that post here, and apparently there are some. How do you reconcile that?

Quote from: 1989;561276I just want to say that Mitchell and Webb is some of the funniest stuff I've seen.

Damn straight.

Quote from: Mistwell;561238WTF was bullshit about my post? I explained why yours is bullshit, in detail.  You just asserted it.

Which appears to be the same reasoning used to bash these guys - a mere assertion they were assholes at some point in the past, with the only link to that claim being they liked 4e and posted on a board that also has some assholes.

Are your eyes brown? I'm betting they are. You're so deep into your bullshit you can't even smell it anymore.

theRPGsite: "look over there! All those assholes that made fun of us for years are getting theirs!"

Mistwell: "That's totally unfair. Some of them aren't assholes. I demand you be more selective when addressing that mob over there".


It is a bullshit demand in the name of... I dunno... geniality? Some perverse sort of fairness?

To whit: I'm reasonably certain I haven't seen too many people called out by name in this thread that haven't been demonstrably assholes. No innocent bystanders unless you count the smucks standing next to the named assholes... who, by rights, should know better than to stand with assholes if they don't want shit on them.

No one is obligated to go forth and identify the innocent bystanders here. By all means, however, go forth and identify the poor bastards who are getting shit flung at them who really don't deserve it.   Tell us who WE are tarring with too broad a brush.

Meanwhile, I'll tell you plain that you've managed to elevate congeniality to the level of true dickery.  I'm not sure if I should praise you or damn you for it.

Quote from: Spike;561278Are your eyes brown? I'm betting they are. You're so deep into your bullshit you can't even smell it anymore.

And yet, here you are, remaining in the same community with him. So you must be complicit in it.

Quote from: Fifth Element;561277Yeah, internet message boards about pretending to be elves. Very appropriate analogy you've made there. Not strained at all.

Besides that, you choose to be associated with any "4vengers" that post here, and apparently there are some. How do you reconcile that?


Damn straight.

Well, if you find that strained, I'll go with my first choice then.

My dick is bigger than yours and I'm waving it in your face. Get the fuck out of here, you can't compete.



Aside from that: I actually don't care.  D&D is like... my third or even fourth choice of RPGs to play.  I just decided that I find certain posters, or at least certain sentiments posted, to be inutterable tripe, and the defense of those posts, remarkably, always seems to be you... which makes me wonder why you are here?   It doesn't seem to be to contribute, only to cheerlead for people who are determined to tard the place up.

Quote from: Fifth Element;561281And yet, here you are, remaining in the same community with him. So you must be complicit in it.

You ARE simple, aren't you? I'm SHUNNING him, rather like I'm shunning you.  I'll count it as a minor victory if I don't have to see either one of you posting here in the near future.

I like to have projects.

Quote from: Fifth Element;561272Absolutely not. If there's some community I greatly enjoy, and some dick comes along and makes trouble, I have no responsibility to leave that community in order to disassociate myself from that dick. It's the dick's problem, not mine. And it's your problem if you automatically associate me with that dick, simply because I didn't allow him to make me give up something I enjoy just to be rid of the minor annoyance he ultimately causes.

Of course the other side of the coin is that if it is an imaginary constructed group of people who are under attack, then really, only imaginary constructed people should feel offended.

Quote from: Spike;561285You ARE simple, aren't you? I'm SHUNNING him, rather like I'm shunning you.  I'll count it as a minor victory if I don't have to see either one of you posting here in the near future.

So what was that "you can always leave" bullshit then? If shunning you is enough to disassociate myself from you, then consider yourself bloody well shunned. But if this is all that's needed, then your suggestion is far too simple-minded to actually be useful, because it means you have to know who's shunning who in any community that you're painting with that broad brush.

I thought that when the firing squads came, screaming about having shunned people wouldn't be enough? Why is it enough for you to do it but not someone else? Because you don't know why theRPGsite will be up against the wall. They could be after the people you shunned, and you're there too because you tolerated all these people you're shunning, instead of getting away from them.

Edit: Also, your post is hilarious in the context of the quote in your sig.

Quote from: Dog Quixote;561287Of course the other side of the coin is that if it is an imaginary constructed group of people who are under attack, then really, only imaginary constructed people should feel offended.

Indeed. I find there's a number of imaginary constructed people on the internet. There's quite a few of them here, I think.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;561152I have a friend, we'll call him Steve (because that's his name).  Steve only played late 2e and then went into 3rd edition and 3.5.  He loved them.  Then, he gamed with me in our Original D&D campaign.  He loved it.  We switched to AD&D.  He loved it.  4e came out, and he loves that.  He has asked me on a couple of occasions to play (but time/scheduling issues prevented it), extolling its virtues.  He's excited about 5e.

Steve is the ideal gamer, above all this shit, this dross.  He loves RPGs.  Steve is not a 4venger.  

I agree 100%. I'm glad that where my group is concerned, they love the game too. The rules are nowhere near as important as everyone having fun at the table, and somehow we do every Saturday we get together for the past 14 years and at least 6 different games and systems.