Quote from: Spinachcat;234881This is good news.   If the GSL become more win-win, then I see less of a need for people do the run around.

I want to be able to put the D&D Logo on the front cover of the print product.   More than anything, that's my concern.

I doubt that is going to happen in any case.  While the license may become more open, I am thinking they still want a way to distinguish between their products and 3rd party.

Quoted from another board and quite accurate, I thought:

QuoteTo me this sounds a lot like...

WotC: "It's my sandbox and if you want to play in it, I make all the rules."

Rest of the Gaming Community: "C'mon guys, let's go find another sandbox."

WotC: "What?!? Wait! Ummmm...I was just kidding, see! I didn't mean it. C'mon back and play with me!!!!"

90% of why I don't have 4e or made an effort to read it has to do with the GSL and my general disgust with WotC.

Normally, I wouldn't think this has anything to do with the market at large, but now I'm wondering if I'm part of a larger minority than I thought.

Unlikely, admittedly, but I like to pretend.

Quote from: S'mon;234779Hmm, the problem is that making mathematical procedures copyrightable would have huge implications beyond the games industry.  I think that expanding the scope of what counts as a game's artistic expression via eg the Scrabulous suit is their best hope.

Sadly the boundaries of logic and reason have historically have very little to do with copyright law in this day and age.

Quote from: StormBringer;234730The more systems that will slip through their fingers, etc.

So what?

Seanchai

Quote from: GrayPumpkin;234819It'll make a difference as far as Necromancer Games is concerned, while they recently refused the GSL they have been hopeful of coming to an agreement. Orcus has been talking to the guys and said that he is optimistic that it will be resolved.

You know Orcus just bought one of those novelty mood dice and rolls it every few hours to see how he feels about any particular subject, right? One minute he's hopeful, the next he's dishearted, then he's hopeful again, then he's not using GSL, then he's hopeful again...Rinse and repeat.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;235138So what?

Seanchai

I will posit that WotC would have had to invest a good deal more money shortly after 3.0 than they did, which could have been problematic for them.  Further, this turn of events was blunted, at least in part, because of the OGL.  The current group seems to think that publishers in the early 2000s jumped on only because it was D&D.

Quote from: StormBringer;234885I doubt that is going to happen in any case.  While the license may become more open, I am thinking they still want a way to distinguish between their products and 3rd party.

They could still distinguish it completely.  The WotC products use the top banner and they could have the 3P use that box logo on the lower left or lower right.  

D20 was a visual brand that people saw while browsing covers.   Without a comparable front cover logo, what's the point of getting on the GSL?   The Kenzer solution gives you a front cover advertising option.

Quote from: StormBringer;235171I will posit that WotC would have had to invest a good deal more money shortly after 3.0 than they did, which could have been problematic for them.

Invest in what?

They do seem awful cash poor. I'm sure owning the biggest IP in the history of the industry has been a detriment to their cash flow.



That aside, I admit, I am curious to see what the changes will be.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;235227Invest in what?

They do seem awful cash poor. I'm sure owning the biggest IP in the history of the industry has been a detriment to their cash flow.

That aside, I admit, I am curious to see what the changes will be.

Seanchai

Invest in all the supplements that have historically been a drag on any company.  Mr. Dancey said it himself, core books make money, supplements slowly bleed a company dry.  Among the other problems TSR faced, supplement bloat can't be discounted.  If WotC had to singlehandedly produce all the products that were engendered by the OGL, I have a feeling it would have been TSR all over again, except there wouldn't be another company out there to save the product lines.  Hasbro would have moved some people around, then sat on the IP.

Again, the current folks over there seem to think all the 3rd parties jumped into the d20 market only because of the D&D brand, and that brand is strong enough to overcome the negatives of the GSL.  They should have already known from reactions to early announcements, but they are finding out the hard way and backpedalling like Lance Armstrong on crack.

Quote from: StormBringer;235230Invest in all the supplements that have historically been a drag on any company.

I'm not sure what you're saying makes sense. If all the supplements created a drag on TSR, then TSR's consumer base wasn't buying them. And if the consumer base wasn't buying them, then why would WotC need to produce such supplements to make 3e successful?

To my recollection, Dancey said he wanted third party publishers to publish modules because they hadn't been profitable for TSR/WotC, not that such modules were necessary for the success of 3e.

Quote from: StormBringer;235230They should have already known from reactions to early announcements, but they are finding out the hard way and backpedalling like Lance Armstrong on crack.

Let's see what the change is before we decide they're backpedaling. Thus far what we know about the change is that there will be a change (unless something more has been said on EnWorld). The change could be something done, for example, as a reaction to KenzerCo's Kalamar PDF and not the lack of GSL signees...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;235243I'm not sure what you're saying makes sense. If all the supplements created a drag on TSR, then TSR's consumer base wasn't buying them. And if the consumer base wasn't buying them, then why would WotC need to produce such supplements to make 3e successful?

To my recollection, Dancey said he wanted third party publishers to publish modules because they hadn't been profitable for TSR/WotC, not that such modules were necessary for the success of 3e.

No, I don't recall him saying that, either.  What I am extrapolating is that all the other products were free advertising for WotC that would have cost them bundles had they undertaken it themselves.  I am peering back through the foggy parts of my memory to claim that Mr Dancey said there was about one supplement book sold for every four or five core books.  I think at one point he posted at some length regarding efficiency between the evergreen core books, and the churn of supplements.  I recall being somewhat annoyed at the time over the seeming attitude of leaving the 'crumbs' to third party folks.  Looks like that one worked out better than I thought it would.

But it wasn't just the supplements that caused TSR problems.  Some sold very well.  Their primary problem with supplements was a lack of focus from having too many different lines.  If WotC had wanted that kind of diversity, or the diversity provided by 3rd parties, they would have gone bankrupt.

ADDENDUM:  TSR was not the shining exemplar of good business practice, of course, but at the time, no one could say whether or not WotC would hit the same pitfalls.  If they had felt that the supplements were necessary, but simply mismanaged, they very well could have gone off the rails.  From the perspective of history, I think Mr. Dancey had a pretty good idea of how to run things, but good ideas don't always survive committee.

QuoteLet's see what the change is before we decide they're backpedaling. Thus far what we know about the change is that there will be a change (unless something more has been said on EnWorld). The change could be something done, for example, as a reaction to KenzerCo's Kalamar PDF and not the lack of GSL signees...

Seanchai

Fair enough.

Quote from: StormBringer;235245What I am extrapolating is that all the other products were free advertising for WotC that would have cost them bundles had they undertaken it themselves.

Except they don't really need to spend money on advertising, now or then. They already have free advertising by virtue of own biggest RPG IP on the planet. When they put out a new edition, geeks notice.

I mean, we're both participating in the other thread about how terrible the advertising campaign was and yet 4e has already gone through two print runs (which, yes, were actually sizable), made the top 5 on Amazon, made the New York Times bestseller's list, etc..

Quote from: StormBringer;235245But it wasn't just the supplements that caused TSR problems.

Yeah, it was the book trade that did the company in.

The bloat issue certainly wasn't helpful, but it is the business models that, oh, 95% of the companies in the industry follow. White Wolf, for example, has managed to hang on there for a few years despite being perhaps the epitome of supplement bloat...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;235385Except they don't really need to spend money on advertising, now or then. They already have free advertising by virtue of own biggest RPG IP on the planet. When they put out a new edition, geeks notice.

I mean, we're both participating in the other thread about how terrible the advertising campaign was and yet 4e has already gone through two print runs (which, yes, were actually sizable), made the top 5 on Amazon, made the New York Times bestseller's list, etc..

'Advertising' was probably an unclear choice of words on my part.  I was thinking more of 'support', as a way of marketing the product.  The amount and variety of supplements available shortly after 3.0 came out, because of the 3rd party support, gave 3.0 the instant appeal of being well supported.  In my view, that softened the loss of supplements people had purchased for 2e when switching over, plus it allowed all those people burned by TSR to finally get their contributions out there, which fostered a sense of community.  The GSL is undermining that, even if it is only percieved that way.  There are still questions on ENWorld about fansites, for example.  WotC is marketing the lisence to known publishers, which is about the exact opposite of the intent of the OGL.  In fact, most of those publishers wouldn't be around today without the OGL.

As to the NYT Best Seller list, Lizard has made a point elsewhere that the criteria for inclusion has changed, and was never just 'units sold' to begin with*.  As I recall, he says Mr Dancey claims that both 3.0 and 3.5 made enough sales to be on the list, but the NYT didn't list things like D&D at that time.

QuoteYeah, it was the book trade that did the company in.

The bloat issue certainly wasn't helpful, but it is the business models that, oh, 95% of the companies in the industry follow. White Wolf, for example, has managed to hang on there for a few years despite being perhaps the epitome of supplement bloat...

Seanchai

White Wolf supplements are fairly interchangable, however.  You can use the Werewolf rules and supplements along side your Mage rules and supplements.  Once you have Forgotten Realms, the Dark Sun supplements are fairly useless.  There are no system barriers to putting Dark Sun on the other side of Abeir Toril, but how many campaigns settings would the average DM want to bolt on like that?  Planescape appears to be their attempt for a more universal supplement to tie the others together.  The 'hub' level, if you will, to send characters to any other campaign setting.

So, the bloat was one facet, the lack of cohesion was the underlying problem.  If the supplements and campaign settings were as easily interchangable as WW, we could very well have been buying TSR's Magic: the Gathering today.

Well, ok, no.  The management fuckups were too big to overcome.  Barring those, however, I think there could have been a very different trajectory for TSR.  The OGL freed WotC from having to follow the splintered supplements model and exert even greater effort to bring them under one roof.  With all the other supplements coming out, they could more or less sit back and release Forgotten Realms at their liesure, with time to polish it to a high shine.


* I assume the reasoning is that if they didn't filter out certain books, things like college textbooks would dominate the list three or four times a year, and certainly the Bible would be in the top 5 in perpetuity.

Quote from: StormBringer;235403I was thinking more of 'support', as a way of marketing the product. The amount and variety of supplements available shortly after 3.0 came out, because of the 3rd party support, gave 3.0 the instant appeal of being well supported.

While I do agree with you that gamers like games they feel are supported, I'm not sure gamers expect instant support for games. I think you're right that instant support is definitely a plus, I'm just not sure it would have been a deal-breaker for prospective 3e buyers or that it was something WotC needed for 3e. I mean, they certainly don't have it for 4e and 4e is selling like hotcakes.

Quote from: StormBringer;235403As to the NYT Best Seller list, Lizard has made a point elsewhere that the criteria for inclusion has changed, and was never just 'units sold' to begin with*.

It sounds like it's still units sold to actual buyers (not just to distributors) - it's just that some books are excluded.

Quote from: StormBringer;235403White Wolf supplements are fairly interchangable, however. You can use the Werewolf rules and supplements along side your Mage rules and supplements.

Not really. A Mage supplement isn't going to do you much good at all unless you have also purchased the Mage core rulebook. And in that case, you're not really buying a supplement for Werewolf, you're buying a supplement for your Mage book, you're just going to use it in a Werewolf game.

Quote from: StormBringer;235403So, the bloat was one facet, the lack of cohesion was the underlying problem.

But, like supplement bloat, that's something other publishers content with as well. You can't just grab a random Mage supplement and use it in your Werewolf game unless you also have the Mage corebook. You won't understand how the special rules work, won't know what a Son of Ether or Silver Ladder is meant to be, won't understand the rotes, etc..

Seanchai