1) I'm ok with buying new monsters every year. More monsters reliably equals more fun!

2) PHB II was worth the $26 it was selling for on Amazon. (I got mine free as a gift from one of the guys in my campaign.)  It saw plenty of use. It still sees plenty of use...

3) It should be pointed out: DMG II was not actually a big seller. I have one. It sees very little use*. I don't think they'll do another book like this, just like I don't think they'll do another Deities and Demigods. Even hardcore fans like me probably won't pick it up.

4) We could look at the complete series as a set of player books. They're totally optional, but there's some very cool stuff in them. I am looking at rejoining my old Friday group (I'm already playing on Thursday nights) and thinking about playing a Green Star Adept. Would I somehow be deprived if I never owned Complete Arcane? Well nah, I had like 9 other character ideas. I just thought this made for a cool concept. I love having options.

* I use the DMG II for the stat block revision which I have adopted for my own campaigns. When I was coming up with my dungeon templates last year I used it quite a lot, but not so much anymore. In other words: I used it a lot when I was planning a campaign and writing adventures, but when I was running my campaign week to week, it rarely got used.

So I'm somewhere in the middle of the new core books conspiracy theory. I'm ok with monster books and books that expand player options.

Quote from: DrewExcellent point, and one that I think the folks at Hasbro/Wizards are more than aware of.

They've tried the direct MMO route anyway with Stormreach. What we're seing with 4E is not an attempt at emulation.

I don't agree with arguments which state that D&D 4e is an "MMORPG" (or, for that matter, "anime"), but certain developments, like the per encounter philosophy, point in that direction. RPGs normally don't have that problem, because their time is entirely subjective... you can fast forward without losing play time to camping and stuff. In MMORPGs, it is a neccessity. But why are designers seeking to replicate the pacing MMORPGs have?

It is one step, and not a full transformation... but it is there.

social networking + online gameplay features != MMORPG, at all.

Quote from: MelanI don't agree with arguments which state that D&D 4e is an "MMORPG" (or, for that matter, "anime"), but certain developments, like the per encounter philosophy, point in that direction. RPGs normally don't have that problem, because their time is entirely subjective... you can fast forward without losing play time to camping and stuff. In MMORPGs, it is a neccessity. But why are designers seeking to replicate the pacing MMORPGs have?

It is one step, and not a full transformation... but it is there.

I think that RPG's, MMO's, CCG's, Wargames, Console games and CRPG's are influencing one another all the time, in ways both subtle and overt. My point is that this in no way supports the emulation hypothesis, rather it's a natural byproduct of the entertainment industry feeding on itself. The people who work in gaming (whatever the format) seem to recognise your earlier point that whilst you can borrow certain concepts and effects you still have to play to your medium's strengths in order to achieve longterm success.

That's why I don't think D&D is becoming like an MMO, because it can't. Not without scrapping the tabletop element altogether, at least.

Quote from: DevPsocial networking + online gameplay features != MMORPG, at all.

i think it's more like "MORPG"--groups aren't really all that "Massive"

Quote from: Melansingle player CRPGs have pro storylines which are better executed than a DM could manage.

If you like being railroaded.

Quote from: walkerpIf you like being railroaded.

Precisely. It surprised me that a lot of people do. :/

RE: PHB II, PHB III, DMG II, DMG III, etc.

I just want to toss out the idea that we not call these upcoming products corebooks.  This new model may warrant a new stupid terminology, the way someone on RPGnet came up with the term fatsplat to describe the faction books for Exalted.  Off the top of my head I'm going to suggest the term core supplement to differentiate these books from both the standard run-of-the-mill supplements and the three books you actually need to play.

Quote from: jrientsRE: PHB II, PHB III, DMG II, DMG III, etc.

I just want to toss out the idea that we not call these upcoming products corebooks.  This new model may warrant a new stupid terminology, the way someone on RPGnet came up with the term fatsplat to describe the faction books for Exalted.  Off the top of my head I'm going to suggest the term core supplement to differentiate these books from both the standard run-of-the-mill supplements and the three books you actually need to play.

This niggled me somewhat, too. It implies that the subsequent books will be as necessary as the first three.

Core Supplement has a nice ring to it. Hopefully Wizards will adopt something similar, if only to prevent the inevitable hue and cry of people claiming they're being forced into buying them.

Quote from: MelanI don't agree with arguments which state that D&D 4e is an "MMORPG" (or, for that matter, "anime"), but certain developments, like the per encounter philosophy, point in that direction. RPGs normally don't have that problem, because their time is entirely subjective... you can fast forward without losing play time to camping and stuff. In MMORPGs, it is a neccessity. But why are designers seeking to replicate the pacing MMORPGs have?

It is one step, and not a full transformation... but it is there.

Yes, and to emphasize this line a bit: the logic of "per encounter" forces a certain kind of play. That is, with "per day" powers, you have the option of spacing each encounter out to a different day and fast-forwarding between them. You also have the option of there being a variable number of encounters, partly determined by the players' decisions, which means it becomes a strategic decision whether to use a given power or to save it for later. "Per encounter" removes the second option.

Quote from: Elliot WilenYes, and to emphasize this line a bit: the logic of "per encounter" forces a certain kind of play. That is, with "per day" powers, you have the option of spacing each encounter out to a different day and fast-forwarding between them. You also have the option of there being a variable number of encounters, partly determined by the players' decisions, which means it becomes a strategic decision whether to use a given power or to save it for later. "Per encounter" removes the second option.

There will still be "per day" powers in 4E, so the effect is likely to be mitigated somewhat. My (purely baseless) speculation is that a lot of the high end, super damaging effects will occupy this slot.

Quote from: MelanFrankly: I would not be surprised if D&D eventually moved from the hands of a card game company to... yes, Blizzard Entertainment. And why? For reasons similar to TSR's: not seeing your strengths and fighting too hard against supposed weaknesses.

I think that's the heart of the matter: lack of confidence that your game is actually valuable in and of itself, which fear is then converted into evolve-or-die hysteria. I can see that attitude originate at Hasbro, trickle down to the WOTC CEO and his adjuncts, and then served up to Mearls & Co. as a memo.

Eh. Last I heard, D&D is barely a blip on Hasbro's financial radar. I've looked through some of their reports and D&D is almost literally a footnote.

It doesn't seem as if the D&D online game has become a hit. I can't imagine Hasbro wanting to follow that up with more, especially when they could create a whole new property.

Seanchai

Quote from: walkerpIf you like being railroaded.

In most CRPGs you know when you have choice and when you're watching exposition setting up the next section of the game.  Not so with tabletop games, and the reason so many players despise the "railroad" I think.

Neverwinter Nights - or more accurately, the ability to make your own modules or even persistent worlds with it - would be a good start for developing an online DM aid to make D&D far more "electronic". I made many modules with the toolkit and had a blast doing it, and my players enjoyed them as well. We WERE playing D&D online, probably almost exactly as Wizard's would like.

So why not just take the existing NWN and NWN2 and tune it up a bit and make IT what they want? I know its not EXACTLY what they're shooting fore (more like a half-way between NWN and true tabletop), but I think it'd work out quite well.