The following post is by Spinachcat, who as rpg.netters know is a very level-headed, open-minded, non-hatin', clued-in kind of poster.

He clarifies in the thread that the info quoted here is from conversations with former Hasbro/WOTC employees.

It seems to me, among many other possible comments, that all of a sudden Dancey's BS blogs make a lot of sense. He's trying to ingratiate himself. He got wind of the new prerogatives and wants his job back.

Quote4e is being driven by Hasbro, not WotC.

Hasbro has been watching WoW and drooling. They don't understand why their geek subsidiary can't make the same money. So word has come down from on high. Make more money! Do what that WoW game is doing and do it now!

That's why the plan is a new PHB, new MM and new DMG each year. Hasbro looked at the books and its those titles that sell the most. So we will be getting new "core" books each year.

D&D Insider is all about WoW emulation and the new rules are going to be geared toward making those many millions of WoW players feel welcome.

So the D&D you knew is dead. Go pick the edition you like and play it to your heart's content. As Old Geezer has pointed out, the PDFs for OD&D are on sale right now. Anyone enjoying B/X D&D can grab a copy off eBay or download one of the emulators like Labyrinth Lord or Basic Fantasy or OSRIC if they like AD&D. Ebay has all the D&D you will ever need.

Hopefully, the WotC team will be able to take the directives of Hasbro and still make a great game. 4e may be terrific, but its going to be much more anime / video game fantasy than anything inspired by books. Why? Because in 1974 gamers were readers. In 2008, gamers are console players and MMO players. In 1974, D&D was created by a couple of dudes having a good time. In 2008, it is a corporate mandate developed to please investors.

If I want to play D&D, I got my version and my copy so I'm coolio. I don't need Mike Mearls or Bruce Cordell to tell me what my D&D should be. Me, Gygax, Arneson and crazy Dave Hargrave have D&D covered. However, I am excited to see 4e come out and I hope its an amazingly fun modern fantasy game that brings the new generation into the hobby.

http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=7795579&postcount=35

The problem, of course, is that what Hasbro's shareholders and officers want out of D&D simply cannot be had without transforming D&D from a tabletop RPG into either some form of MMORPG or a PC/console RPG series.  The differences in the media at hand are too great, and the understanding of both tabletop and digital RPG business are too little on the part of the immediately aforemention parties; Mearls & company are getting screwed, and the tabletop RPG world with them.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityHe clarifies in the thread that the info quoted here is from conversations with former Hasbro/WOTC employees.

Without naming any names, of course.

I could start a thread citing equally nebulous sources, stating that Hasbro are in fact deliberately attempting to sabotage the D&D brand by changing it beyond recognition.

Until I see actual proof of his assertions then I'll just consign it to the hysteria junk pile, thanks.

The scenario outlined, while unsubstantiated, does not strike me as implausible.

I'm not buying it. This is the same hysteria from RPGnet that heralded 3.0.

And really, this is only the mildest form so far.

I chalk this up to people not understanding what all the online crap is actually going to be used for. They see a computer and they think "oh, it's meant to be just like World of Warcraft.."

The video game influence is going to be like "how spells work", not how you play or what you play. So like in World of Warcraft you can equip a wand and just continuously blast enemies like any other weapon. It's going to be something like that. (Note: I have no idea how wands will work in 4.0, I'm just trying to use a hypothetical).

I highly recommend someone take a look at Fantasygrounds II or Kloogeworks or Screenmonkey or OpenRPG to see a third party version of what this stuff actually does. It already exists. The online stuff is meant to do that, but coordinated with something like a facebook site (that's Gleemax) as a matching service. Currently on FantasyGrounds, you use something called the FG Calendar to set up your game. It looks to me, like a bunch of that with more features, and the expectation that there will be a much larger user base.

DNDInsider is going to be a user community website much like the ones that currently exist (RPGnet, here, Enworld, other places...), but with content and management from Wizards of the Coast.

I don't see anything in the quoted post that isn't pretty obvious.
They can't mess with the tabletop world, because we all just do what we do at our tables. Or at our third-party virtual tables, or whatever.

But it's not reasonable to expect Hasbro not to go for the most available money they can squeeze from the property. You get that, right? They aren't interested in tradition or customers' opinions of what it should be. They are a money-making machine. That's what they do. That's all they do. If WoW is where the money is, that's where they'll go. If it's something else in two years, there'll be a 5th edition that goes there. If you think of D&D as a little cult phenomenon, run by the global family of gamers, then it already died when Hasbro took it over. Of course, even the crustiest of old grognards (like me) can see that's probably not the most productive way to look at it.

Quote from: stu2000But it's not reasonable to expect Hasbro not to go for the most available money they can squeeze from the property. You get that, right? They aren't interested in tradition or customers' opinions of what it should be. They are a money-making machine. That's what they do. That's all they do. If WoW is where the money is, that's where they'll go. If it's something else in two years, there'll be a 5th edition that goes there. If you think of D&D as a little cult phenomenon, run by the global family of gamers, then it already died when Hasbro took it over. Of course, even the crustiest of old grognards (like me) can see that's probably not the most productive way to look at it.

Ahh, but theres a catch. If you're good at producing a fantasy tabletop game, its a big ask to become good at producing an computer game. If this really is about sucking WoW'ers into SATT RPGs then its fair to ask whether that strategy is sound. Yes, its a fairly big market, but why would you suddenly become interested in something that is less like what you want to do than what you've already got?

Or, in other words, the question is whether or not D&D could compete as a 'computer game emulator' against computer games. That is, if thats really the way they're taking it.

Urban legend or not, it is certain businesspeople had looked at WoW's figures and asked "how could we replicate that"? Unfortunately, it isn't being done by being followers. By emulating MMORPG features, D&D stands little to gain but it may well lose or damage its own identity. What separates D&D from WoW is not story; single player CRPGs have pro storylines which are better executed than a DM could manage. Ryan Dancey is incorrect. What pen and paper gaming can bring to the table is theoretically limitless emergence (player freedom/sandboxing), player-driven adventures, DM subjectivity (yes, folks, this individuality is not a bug, but an advantage), the do it yourself factor and socialising/face-to-face interaction (the last one may be had in certain MMORPG arrangements, but not consistently). Capitalise on this heavily and you win (although you still won't have WoW's figures). Lose this from before your eyes, and be prepared to be mowed down.

Frankly: I would not be surprised if D&D eventually moved from the hands of a card game company to... yes, Blizzard Entertainment. And why? For reasons similar to TSR's: not seeing your strengths and fighting too hard against supposed weaknesses.

(And if you emulate a CRPG, designer people... emulate Crusaders of the Dark Savant. )

The catch is that they might sell fewer 4th eds than they did 3.5 eds and that's going to seem like a dreadful failure to them. I don't think it's a foregone comclusion they'll sell a 4th to everyone that played 3.5. Nor is it a forgione conclusion that 4th will be much more appealing to people that don't enjoy D&D already. No matter how easy they make it, pprpgs are inherently more difficult to arrange and play than WoW.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI chalk this up to people not understanding what all the online crap is actually going to be used for. They see a computer and they think "oh, it's meant to be just like World of Warcraft..

Exactly. A few years ago and it would be people claiming D&D was emulating Everquest. A few years before that and it would be Magic: The Gathering (In fact I can easily imagine the arguments-- "OMG Feats are just like CCG's!")

Interactive gaming entertainment media is a huge, dynamic latticework of intersections, influences and overlaps. Of course there are going to be some areas where the similarities are more pronounced, but that no more proves the emulation hypothesis than saying the increased use of miniatures is an attempt to replicate Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Anime, WoW etc. are just the buzzwords of the day. By the time 5th edition comes along there will be whole new set of gaming-related monoliths D&D will be accused of emulating. And I suspect it'll be the usual suspects making the same old complaints again.

Quote from: MelanUrban legend or not, it is certain businesspeople had looked at WoW's figures and asked "how could we replicate that"? Unfortunately, it isn't being done by being followers. By emulating MMORPG features, D&D stands little to gain but it may well lose or damage its own identity. What separates D&D from WoW is not story; single player CRPGs have pro storylines which are better executed than a DM could manage. Ryan Dancey is incorrect. What pen and paper gaming can bring to the table is theoretically limitless emergence (player freedom/sandboxing), player-driven adventures, DM subjectivity (yes, folks, this individuality is not a bug, but an advantage), the do it yourself factor and socialising/face-to-face interaction (the last one may be had in certain MMORPG arrangements, but not consistently). Capitalise on this heavily and you win (although you still won't have WoW's figures). Lose this from before your eyes, and be prepared to be mowed down.

Excellent point, and one that I think the folks at Hasbro/Wizards are more than aware of.

They've tried the direct MMO route anyway with Stormreach. What we're seing with 4E is not an attempt at emulation.

OH MY!  New Core Books every single year?!?

I'd love to see a source on that, since it sounds completely implausible to me.

-O

Quote from: obrynOH MY!  New Core Books every single year?!?

I'd love to see a source on that, since it sounds completely implausible to me.

-O

I dunno DMG2...DMG....3....PHB2, PHB3, and how many Monster Manuals for 3.5 are there, something like 5?
Isn't that more than one a year?
Seems pretty plausible to me.

Quote from: obrynOH MY!  New Core Books every single year?!?

I'd love to see a source on that, since it sounds completely implausible to me.

I can't provide the link, but I did see this a while back.

PHB2, DMG2 and MM2 will be released in 2009. PHB3, DMG3 and MM3 will be released in 2010, etc. Apparently the third edition expansions were so popular that they've adopted it as the standard model for introducing new core classes, races and monsters.

The aim is to keep all non setting specific rules expansions in one line of books, IIRC.

Quote from: obrynOH MY! New Core Books every single year?!?
 
I'd love to see a source on that, since it sounds completely implausible to me.
 
-O

Ditto. Pretty much everyone at WOTC realizes that just wouldn't fly. Hasbro may or may not be pushing WOTC in certain directions but they've showed signs of realizing that D&D is not Monopoly and aren't likely to do something when everyone below says not to.
 
And PHB2 etc. are not really core books; they optional, like putting out a new Unearthed Arcana every year.