Quote from: Thanatos02Hopefully, D&D 4 will make it easy and natural (and fun) to play a standard western fantasy game.

I haven't seen anything yet that would suggest otherwise. I think the whole anime/eastern influence thing has been tremendously overstated.

Well done for keeping your cool, btw. I was half expecting a huge flamewar over this, but you handled yourself with considerable aplomb. Kudos.

Quote from: architect.zeroEssentially, Fighters got the shaft-royale (with cheese) in 3e - by simple oversight, not malicious intent.

If the problem is that they don't do enough damage or are not effective enough, then the solution doesn't have to be to make them more complicated to run.  All they need to do is let fighters do more effective damage, and there are plenty of other ways to do that.

Quote from: J ArcaneLook, I have no problem with anime.  I have no problem with Asian cultures.  Quite the polar opposite in fact.  Hell, as a cook, I'm still more comfortable with Asian foods than I am with American food.

I do have a problem with them being in D&D.  D&D is a Western fantasy game.  It's bad fantasy novels, and old fairy stories, and that's what I LIKE about it.  It's the comfort food of gaming.  

*cough*Monk*cough*

Sorry for that - I get what you're saying, but I couldn't resist the obvious joke.

I suggest that maybe they should read this article by James Ernest titled "Keeping It Simple":

http://www.fbgames.co.uk/words/design/simple.htm

Quote from: Brantai*cough*Monk*cough*

If you look at early D&D, it's clear that certain things are in there because a player read a book or watched a movie and wanted to play a character based on that in one of those early D&D games.  In the case of the Monk, it's clear that it's all the show Kung Fu's fault.

Quote from: Thanatos02The one thing I do know, and dislike, is the constant shoulder-chip and general misunderstanding of anime as if it were all the same genre. It's not.

It's not the same genre but it does draw from a common and distinct pool of stylistic conventions.  And before you dismiss that, I suggest Scott McCloud's book "Undestanding Comics" and, in particular, the section where he quantifies the differences between American comic books and manga.  Manga isn't a genre, yet Scott McCloud manages to identify what makes it collectively different than American comics.  The same sort of differences exist between American animation and Japanese anime that makes Japanese anime, collectively, have something stylistically in common.

Quote from: Thanatos02I understand there's a lot of power-fantasy giant-swords and stuff on television right now, but when people say "I don't want anime in my games, because it looks like Wizards is getting their cues from Akira." I really wanna roll my eyes because that sentence is all wrong.

When WotC says, in one of their books, that one of the influences is "anime", they most certainly mean "power-fantasy giant-swords and stuff" as well as gravity-defying physics and so on and not Maison Ikkoku.  So when a fan says that they don't want "anime" in their games, they are almost certainly expressing their feelings about the same elements of some anime that's likely to influence a game.

The latest from WotC r.e. "power sources" for Fighters and Rogues:

Short version: They don't use magic, rather they are just really skilled and dedicated, and they can't do the really amazing stuff that stretches the boundaries of realism until high levels.

QuotePower sources are an important part of 4th Edition. They answer the question, "How does your character do what he does?" Wizards tap into arcane magic. Paladins and clerics call on the power of the gods. For classes such as these, the answer is self-evident. Pose the same question to a fighter or rogue and the answer becomes more difficult. What separates the fighter who marches into the dragon's lair from the local village militia? In a world of mighty gods and boundless magic, what marks the line between an average guy with a sword and a fighter?

In 4th Edition, the martial power source provides the answer. Some people, through intense training, dedication, or just plain old toughness, rise above the rest of the pack. The fighter might walk into the dragon's lair out of a noble sense of duty or a selfish drive to prove himself mightier than a mere wyrm. He lacks the ability to control arcane magic or the dedication needed to gain power from the gods. Instead, he has his toughness, self-discipline, and supreme mastery of his fighting skills. Other characters seek to master energies from other planes or beings. The martial character seeks to master his potential—to convert it to a fully realized mastery of a fighting form.

A martial character is much like a world class athlete. An Olympic sprinter doesn't have any special muscles or super abilities. Through a mix of inborn talent and supreme dedication, she pushes herself to achieve speeds that no other human can match. In the same manner, a fighter achieves skill with weapons and armor that soar beyond a typical person's abilities. Like a skilled athlete, a fighter draws on his intense dedication, relentless training, and supreme focus. Potential isn't enough, as the sports world is filled with talented people who fail to apply themselves, as well as physically limited individuals who use a combination of dedication and smarts to outplay their opponents. A martial character draws his strength from within.

In terms of flavor and description, the martial character/athlete analogy guided many decisions about the way martial characters push themselves beyond the limit. At low levels, martial characters have abilities that are impressive but don't stretch the boundaries of what is or is not possible. Only at the highest levels do we see martial characters verging into the truly impossible acts of agility and strength attainable only in fiction.

Weapons and how fighters use them provided a blueprint for their design. A skilled halberdier can hack a foe with his weapon's blade and spin around to smash a second foe with the haft. A fighter with a longsword disarms her foe with a flick of her wrist, while a battle hungry axeman cleaves through shields, armor, and bone. The design for fighter maneuvers came down to looking at weapons, figuring out how a fighter could use one, and deciding on special effects that felt cool for the weapon and proved useful for the class. Check out the Design & Development column on fighters and their weapons for more on this concept.

Rogues have a similar relationship with skills. A nimble rogue dives through the air to tumble past an ogre, while a charismatic one tricks an enemy into looking away just before she delivers a killing blow with her dagger. Just as fighters do more with weapons than any other character, rogues push skills beyond the limits that constrain other PCs.

The martial power source is about taking resources and abilities that have clear limits for other classes and demolishing those limits through focus, training, and skill.

Quote from: John MorrowIf you look at early D&D, it's clear that certain things are in there because a player read a book or watched a movie and wanted to play a character based on that in one of those early D&D games.  In the case of the Monk, it's clear that it's all the show Kung Fu's fault.

The whole game was built that way.

Quote from: Colin ChapmanThe latest from WotC r.e. "power sources" for Fighters and Rogues:

Short version: They don't use magic, rather they are just really skilled and dedicated, and they can't do the really amazing stuff that stretches the boundaries of realism until high levels.

Good stuff, it's pretty much how I thought they'd handle it. I do wonder why it took so many words to communicate such a basic idea, though. They were probably trying to allay the fears expressed here and elsewhere with all that talk of olympic atheletes and shit.

Doesn't sound very anime, either. More like the Iron Heart discipline I mentioned at the start of the thread.

Personally, i think that big chunks are still in design and the announcement and the release of these snippets allows them to tweak the design between now and christmas based on feedback, playtest etc.

Quote from: DrewGood stuff, it's pretty much how I thought they'd handle it. I do wonder why it took so many words to communicate such a basic idea, though. They were probably trying to allay the fears expressed here and elsewhere with all that talk of olympic atheletes and shit.

Doesn't sound very anime, either. More like the Iron Heart discipline I mentioned at the start of the thread.

I wouldn't mind that.  Or even a more Earthdawn style.

I just don't want a game of high-flying daklaives (sp?) and sword-chucks.  If I wanted to play Exalted, I'd play Exalted.

The D&D Monk is about as "oriental" as Walker:Texas Ranger.

In other words,  its very different than turning the whole freaking game into Dragon Ball Z.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe D&D Monk is about as "oriental" as Walker:Texas Ranger.

That's as may be, but it certainly wasn't inspired by western fantasy.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe D&D Monk is about as "oriental" as Walker:Texas Ranger.

In other words,  its very different than turning the whole freaking game into Dragon Ball Z.

RPGPundit

Is this what your insider knowledge is telling you they are doing?  Cause they sure haven't said they are changing it into dragon ball z.

Quote from: jrientsThe whole game was built that way.

Oh, absolutely.  And in some cases the inspirations were obvious, especially if you look at the 1st Edition level names (e.g., Ranger = Aragorn, Thief = Gray Mouser, etc.).

That said, it's often as important to know what to leave out and say "No!" to as what to let in, and Monks were never really a comfortable fit with the pseudo-Medieval milieu assumed by D&D.