Quote from: Serious PaulI imagine Anime to include very little of actual Asian culture, which is often my problem with it. I equate much of the Anime that's out there with Pop Culture. And just Western Pop Culture, I consider "Eastern" Pop culture to be devoid of actual content, and crap.

Dude, get off your high horse. We're talking about D&D. You know, D&D the roleplaying game, not D&D the opera or D&D the groundbreaking novel by James Joyce.

Quote from: Thanatos02You know, honestly, I'm pretty damn tired of measuring a game by how 'Tolkien-esque' it is and especially D&D, which was never particularly geared to that very well anyhow. (I mean, ok, Hobbits and stuff. But the similarities begin to grow slim past that.)

They started out not so bad at being tolkien-esque.  I mean, there weren't a whole lotta rules in that little blue pamphlet that came with my basic set in 1979, so I don't know that it did or didn't make the specific effort.

What it did do was allow us to imagine that - which hadn't been done on that scale with a game. And let's face it, at that time what other fantasy were you likely to be thinking about when you played - Jordan's Wheel of Time? It was generally (not for everyone, it's a generalization) LotR or Conan.

Quote from: Thanatos02And if you pretty much limit your scope to fantasy=Tolkien, you're really painting a narrow picture for yourself. Now, I'm not saying that's the total scope of what people are limiting themselves to, but it sounds like the default for at least one poster, and that's ok. But, on the other hand, even Western themes vary dramatically, with historical and fanciful weapon styles, schools, and techniques, varied magics to consider, widely variant environments, et al, ad infinium.

I like the butt monkey! "Hey, you're really painting a narrow picture, and that's ok, but boy are you narrow minded." This is like all of those who say "if you don't want to at least try to play [insert non-D&D game here] you're a complete waste of oxygen for not wanting to try new things!!!!" You are right - it's my default.  In fact, it's almost exclusively what I like.  The leap of logic that most here are making is that when someone says that, it's all they've "tried."  Well, either that or they are scared racists (see below).

Quote from: Thanatos02To the point where I'm really curious as to what people are fretting about. There seems to be some serious culture-anxiety going around some circles, talking about how D&D has caught 'teh anime' like it was a pox or some shit, just because martial classes'll be able to ready maneuvers (as if it were a bad thing anyhow).
[snip]
Overall, I think the worry about eastern or Japanese culture leaking into 'western' fantasy is a little exoticised and faintly racist, not to mention a little silly. As if all of asian culture was somehow compressed into a super-narrow band of anime that some people imagine all asian media to be.

Sweet.  Now I'm "faintly racist" because my influences and the mental picture in my head when someone says fantasy doesn't include Japanese animiation, Kung Fu movies, and video games.

Let me see if I can finally clear this up for some of you who don't seem to be getting it. It's not the end of the world for me if 4th edition uses these influences or not. It's not some racist comment on Easter influences. It's the recognition and acceptance that my influences are different than the next generation of gamers and that it makes sense for them to move, slowly, in that direction.  I don't have any problem with the Eastern influences, even if they pan out in the most agressive implementation I imagine.  It's simply a concern that if they do move aggressively into that area, it will be a fundamental shift from the "standard" fantasy implied setting.

Yes, even that implied setting has changed over the thirty plus years.  And for those of you who think I'm narrow minded or parochial, please remember that your argument now is that I've absorbed all those changes, but because I won't absorb this one I'm narrow-minded or racist.  No, it's that the ones I've aborbed didn't seem like major changes as they included pieces of culture with which my peers and I were familiar. Wheel of Time? Amber? Potter? Sure, those are close enough to "standard" fantasy to be familiar. Does that make them "better?" That's completely a matter of taste.

What I recognize is that more and more of the gamers coming after me are familiar with a different set of influences - one that I looked at and decided I didn't like.  It's why it seems so much more of a change for me. But this is an admission that I'm now possibly in the minority (sorry J Arcane, but I think we might be). It's not that I'm narrow-minded and didn't look at those influences - that's the flaw in your logic. It's that I rejected them as something I would include in my definition of standard fantasy.  Your definition probably varies - and, as I said, it's apparent that my definition is the minority.

And that's all OK.  I'm not claiming D&D 4th Edition is crap because its "teh anime!'" I think it's moving in a direction that will, unfortunately leave me behind.  Which is fine.  I'm OK with that; disappointed at getting old and out of mainstream of influences, but OK.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine:rolleyes:

Look, I can do that too! Neat!
:rollbarf:
 

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYour basic point seems to be "I heard some scuttlebutt, and I don't like it!" Well, so what? Are you so afraid of any anime influence whatsoever that you aren't even going to wait to see the finished product before complaining about it? Because you're doing that right now.

Wow. You mean, I'm not supposed to post a thread speculating on 4th Edition at all until it's actually in my hands?  I'm sorry, I completely missed the point of discussion forums.

And if you'd read the posts, you'd see I'm still reading Bo9S and have reserved judgement on it, and 4th Edition, until I've read them. I'm talking about concerns pseduo.  I'm not claiming this is how it will be, or that it will be universally bad.  As I said in my previous posts (yeah, read them, you'll see) I'm concerned about this influence making the game different enough to me that I won't continue with the next version.  Of course, this will all depend on how they write the rules, right? Oh yeah, I've said that too.  Amazing. Are you so sensitive that you aren't even reading and comprehending the posts before complaining about them/ Because that's what you're doing right now.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineEven if your "influences" are different, so what? Grow a little. Try something new.

Your flaw is the assumption that I don't "try something new."  I've been down on Kung Fu movies for years - after having watched many.  Not even Crouching Tiger did it for me.  It was watchable, great for Eastern influenced fanstasy adventures, IMHO, but not something I would consider part of "standard" fantasy. And I just watched Akira a month or so ago even though I've never been into anime.  Oh, but wait, I'm some narrow minded idiot who doesn't try anything new.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe two things I most want the games I run to be like are the tales of the conquistadors and Homeric epics, but that doesn't mean I only play in games that are like them. I am always willing to be surprised and find out that I really enjoy something that I thought I wouldn't (and I often do). To not be this way - to not be open - is to be parochial and narrow-minded. If you take those terms as insulting, then you should not act in the manner they describe.

I take them as insulting because your assumption is that I've never experienced those things - as opposed to specifically rejecting them. But don't let your ignorance get in the way of your arrogance - it generally doesn't. If you take those terms as insulting, then you should not act in the manner they describe.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAs for your main point in that post, Dungeons and Dragons has had - since 2nd edition at least (I never played 1st so I won't comment on it, but I have played RC and it was true there as well) - a serious problem where Fighters and other combat oriented non-spellcasting classes are much more constrained in their combat options, damage output and "special" features than the spellcasting classes. Some people ignore this problem, but they're ignoring it, not resolving it. The closest D&D got to resolving this prior to the Book of Nine Swords was to give fighters magical weapons, armour and items. There was just no other way for them to compete at high levels with the wizards and priests.

I don't have my 1st Ed books here... but I seem to recall that a 10th level fighter could make *10* attacks against 0-level humans (think the Athenians or Persian slaves in the movie '300') each round.  Combat was more abstracted than it became in subsequent editions, leaving room for you to narrate all sorts of things.

(apologies if I'm mis-remembering this and it was some kind of house-rule)

Edit: Forgot the fighter's level.

Quote from: StuartI don't have my 1st Ed books here... but I seem to recall that a fighter could make *10* attacks against 0-level humans (think the Athenians or Persian slaves in the movie '300') each round.  Combat was more abstracted than it became in subsequent editions, leaving room for you to narrate all sorts of things.

(apologies if I'm mis-remembering this and it was some kind of house-rule)

Nope, that was how it worked.  Fighters and fighter sub-classes got a number of attacks equal to their level against enemies of less than 1HD.

Quote from: StuartI don't have my 1st Ed books here... but I seem to recall that a fighter could make *10* attacks against 0-level humans (think the Athenians or Persian slaves in the movie '300') each round.  Combat was more abstracted than it became in subsequent editions, leaving room for you to narrate all sorts of things.

(apologies if I'm mis-remembering this and it was some kind of house-rule)

IIRC they had as many attacks as levels vs. enemies with less than 1HD per round.

Which is all well and good, but made for pretty dull play. Sending a bunch of Goblins against a 10th level to showcase the above gets boring quite quickly. I'd rather have warrior types be useful against enemies of the appropriate scale.

Quote from: KenHRNope, that was how it worked. Fighters and fighter sub-classes got a number of attacks equal to their level against enemies of less than 1HD.

Hey, did that include things with a minus on the HD, like goblins?  Or was that just in B/X they got the minus?

Quote from: StuartHey, did that include things with a minus on the HD, like goblins?  Or was that just in B/X they got the minus?

Yep, minus HD were included.

Quote from: WarthurDude, get off your high horse. We're talking about D&D. You know, D&D the roleplaying game, not D&D the opera or D&D the groundbreaking novel by James Joyce.

What high horse is that? I just don't like anime or much of pop culture. That doesn't equate to me somehow saying my game is better, or my game is some how above. You're reading into my posts when there is nothing substantial there to be reading.

I am allowed to dislike stuff right? I mean it's okay if I have a personal preference isn't it?

For my buck LARP, furries, anime and pop music is all an equal amount of shit. Your buck may be spent somewhere else, and I'm fine with that-in turn all I expect is the same level of respect in allowing me to support those products I like.

After all it is about having fun right? Or is that up there on that horse you've created?

Quote from: KenHRDude, as a card-carrying Asian person: bullshit.

So you get to make the calls on what's racism based on what does or doesn't offend you? I know plenty of women who are ok with misogynist crap, but that doesn't make it not misogynist.

But let's be clear. What I'm not doing is running around calling people racists. I see how people could feel I was saying that, and I'm sorry. I haven't seen anything on these boards that indicated that any current posters are racists, and wanted to make that clear.
On the other hand, just because someone isn't a racist, doesn't mean some of the things that they write or say can't be. What's going on here might have been a misperception by me, but what I thought I was reading was essentially boiled down to: "These tropes look inspired by anime." -> "I'm not interested in this anime/kung-fu/wuxia influence." and, you know, I guess I was in the wrong on this one, because I've seen it so many times before but, "I don't want any wacky Japanese shit." (Because, and like I said, I guess I'm just used to seeing it, but that shit happened on RPG.net all the time. "It's just those crazy Japanese people again!")

The one thing I do know, and dislike, is the constant shoulder-chip and general misunderstanding of anime as if it were all the same genre. It's not. I understand there's a lot of power-fantasy giant-swords and stuff on television right now, but when people say "I don't want anime in my games, because it looks like Wizards is getting their cues from Akira." I really wanna roll my eyes because that sentence is all wrong.

And it smelled like exoticism from where I was at. "Oh man, it's just that asian anime and it's over-the-top munchkin factor." And I've seen that shit before. It gets old. So I'm sorry if anyone felt I was calling them racist. And I think I might have misunderstood, so I'll hold out judgement on the statements, but I would like them clairified a bit more, if it was possible.

Now:

Quote"Hey, you're really painting a narrow picture, and that's ok, but boy are you narrow minded." This is like all of those who say "if you don't want to at least try to play [insert non-D&D game here] you're a complete waste of oxygen for not wanting to try new things!!!!" You are right - it's my default.

If I read you unfairly, I think you're doing the same thing here. I'm saying that there's more to fantasy then Tolkien and when I played D&D, for all my love of that dead motherfucker's works, I wasn't really trying to re-create the feel of his novels. I wasn't thinking about Conan. I wasn't thinking about Wheel of Time. (I bought the specific role-playing book for that, actually.) Or Sword of Truth or Thomas Covenant, or any other fantasy book.
Now, you wanna play Tolkien. I mean, great. But it sounds a little odd, because in all of the Lord of the Rings, no dragons made an appearance and in The Hobbit, there was only one, and he killed a dragon with one shot of his bow. I don't know how D&D has ever held up to that, much less with knights and feudal governments, but I think I understand what you mean.

So listen. I think default, generic Western fantasy should be covered. But I also think that the thought chain of "Maneuvers=anime so = bad" is pretty shabby thinking. You don't like the book of 9 Swords. That could be western-fantasy flavored so easily. The names are already pretty generic. If you changed them to something more clearly tied to Europe, what then? What's anime flavored about not running out of spells? Tieflings?

And come on. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I'm trying to hold a discussion, not a flame war. It'll be more interesting and less stressful if you don't assume I'm just trying to make a mockery of people. I'm not. (That last comment is pretty much for everyone.)

Quote from: Thanatos02On the other hand, just because someone isn't a racist, doesn't mean some of the things that they write or say can't be. What's going on here might have been a misperception by me, but what I thought I was reading was essentially boiled down to: "These tropes look inspired by anime." -> "I'm not interested in this anime/kung-fu/wuxia influence." and, you know, I guess I was in the wrong on this one, because I've seen it so many times before but, "I don't want any wacky Japanese shit." (Because, and like I said, I guess I'm just used to seeing it, but that shit happened on RPG.net all the time. "It's just those crazy Japanese people again!")

So if you really were reading "These tropes look inspired by anime." and "I'm not interested in this anime/kung-fu/wuxia influence." then that's somehow racist?

What if the person was interested in influences from other sources?  Why isn't that valid?  :confused:

Quote from: Thanatos02So you get to make the calls on what's racism based on what does or doesn't offend you? I know plenty of women who are ok with misogynist crap, but that doesn't make it not misogynist.

No, but honestly, having put up with racism in my life (ranging from the aggressively offensive type to the well meaning...I've actually been asked by folks if my ancestry makes me "more spiritual"), I feel like you're not only misinterpreting JA and others' comments, you're trivializing a real issue.  Big time.  You don't need to be offended on anyone's behalf.

That's all I have to say on this as I don't want to derail the thread.  Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further.

QuoteI know plenty of women who are ok with misogynist crap, but that doesn't make it not misogynist.

Which tells us what about you and your little concept of mysogynism?
Yeah, right.

Them darkies, gooks and them vaginas don´t know when they are insulted. Only me, Captain "Manly-WASP" Whitebread can surely pinpoint unfairness and biases when they occur.

Quote from: Thanatos02But let's be clear. What I'm not doing is running around calling people racists. I see how people could feel I was saying that, and I'm sorry. I haven't seen anything on these boards that indicated that any current posters are racists, and wanted to make that clear.
On the other hand, just because someone isn't a racist, doesn't mean some of the things that they write or say can't be. What's going on here might have been a misperception by me, but what I thought I was reading was essentially boiled down to: "These tropes look inspired by anime." -> "I'm not interested in this anime/kung-fu/wuxia influence." and, you know, I guess I was in the wrong on this one, because I've seen it so many times before but, "I don't want any wacky Japanese shit." (Because, and like I said, I guess I'm just used to seeing it, but that shit happened on RPG.net all the time. "It's just those crazy Japanese people again!")

I guess I'll kind of take that as an apology. I guess.  You'll have to tell me if it was meant as one.

Quote from: Thanatos02The one thing I do know, and dislike, is the constant shoulder-chip and general misunderstanding of anime as if it were all the same genre. It's not. I understand there's a lot of power-fantasy giant-swords and stuff on television right now, but when people say "I don't want anime in my games, because it looks like Wizards is getting their cues from Akira." I really wanna roll my eyes because that sentence is all wrong.

I only brought up Akira cause it's the most recent anime I've watched (slogged through for me, but that's personal taste). If you go back and look at my original posts, I specifically quote the Bo9S talking about from where it got its influence. I'm not making the Akira jump, I'm quoting them explicitly saying, "Japanese anime, Kung Fu movies, and video games," right from the source.

Now I don't know how much bleeds in, I'm still reading.  The Crusader looks like a western trope, only being silly (to me) in that the abilities are somehow tied to devine intervention as opposed to the faith/will of the Crusader -which would make more sense to me. But, like I said, I'm still reading.  I may come out the other end of this thing and say "Fucking brilliant!"

But at the moment, I still have concerns due to how I can see this fitting in with other statements about all characters being more balanced and the focus of 4th Edition being on these per encounter resources. Taking all of it together makes me wonder about how it will all play out - and at first blush it seems to all be wrapped up in a way that might not appeal to me - that's it, that's all - it might not appeal to me.

Quote from: Thanatos02And it smelled like exoticism from where I was at. "Oh man, it's just that asian anime and it's over-the-top munchkin factor." And I've seen that shit before. It gets old. So I'm sorry if anyone felt I was calling them racist. And I think I might have misunderstood, so I'll hold out judgement on the statements, but I would like them clairified a bit more, if it was possible.

Let me be clear.  To be honest, the one of the three that least concerns me is the anime.  It's the Kung Fu movies and video game aspects that concern me more. In both cases, I get the sense that (and this is not limited to new editions) D&D is slowly making itself into a "cinematic" approach as opposed to "heroic."  I could, if pushed, probably explain the difference, but it will take a bit - so I'll leave that to your intepretation for now.

Quote from: Thanatos02If I read you unfairly, I think you're doing the same thing here. I'm saying that there's more to fantasy then Tolkien and when I played D&D, for all my love of that dead motherfucker's works, I wasn't really trying to re-create the feel of his novels. I wasn't thinking about Conan. I wasn't thinking about Wheel of Time. (I bought the specific role-playing book for that, actually.) Or Sword of Truth or Thomas Covenant, or any other fantasy book.
Now, you wanna play Tolkien. I mean, great. But it sounds a little odd, because in all of the Lord of the Rings, no dragons made an appearance and in The Hobbit, there was only one, and he killed a dragon with one shot of his bow. I don't know how D&D has ever held up to that, much less with knights and feudal governments, but I think I understand what you mean.

Just to be clear - what I'm saying isn't that I want to play Tolkien.  It's that it was one of the most widely influencing factors for people (probably that an Conan - Wheel of time was but an idea in Jordan's mind) who played in the early days. There were others, for sure.  And I'll always hav D&D to thank for introducing me to those other influences. But none of them strayed too far from "standard" fantasy.

Quote from: Thanatos02So listen. I think default, generic Western fantasy should be covered. But I also think that the thought chain of "Maneuvers=anime so = bad" is pretty shabby thinking. You don't like the book of 9 Swords. That could be western-fantasy flavored so easily. The names are already pretty generic. If you changed them to something more clearly tied to Europe, what then? What's anime flavored about not running out of spells? Tieflings?

I differ in that I think "Western" (your word, not mine) fantasy should be the default. I haven't put all those equal signs in quote yet, either.  I'm concerned, but as I don't have the 4th Edition PHB, I can't say A=B=C yet (possibly not ever). And for the 30th time in this thread - I don't like the influences cited for the Bo9S.  I haven't read the entire thing yet, so I can't tell you if I like it.  Like I said up post - the problems I had with Crusader had nothing to do with the cited influences - ironic, huh?

Quote from: Thanatos02And come on. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I'm trying to hold a discussion, not a flame war. It'll be more interesting and less stressful if you don't assume I'm just trying to make a mockery of people. I'm not. (That last comment is pretty much for everyone.)

Well, you have to admit, it seemed you were crying racism - so please don't be surprised if that results in a rather...heated...response.

And here's the biggest irony for me, personally.  Since we/I brought up the Wheel of Time, I'm thinking that could have been cited as a direct influence almost most of all. I mean, if this isn't Lan teaching Rand to a T, I don't know what is....

Quote from: Serious PaulWhat high horse is that? I just don't like anime or much of pop culture. That doesn't equate to me somehow saying my game is better, or my game is some how above. You're reading into my posts when there is nothing substantial there to be reading.

Well, if you are concerned about me misreading your posts you shouldn't write ambiguously. Your original quote sounded much more like "I don't want anime in my D&D, because it's lowbrow and gauche", not "I don't want anime in my D&D because I don't happen to like anime". If you were going for the latter, why bring up the "pop culture" stuff at all? It seemed very much as if you were saying "Lord of the Rings is high culture and is allowed to influence D&D, anime low culture and not worthy."

QuoteI am allowed to dislike stuff right?

I am allowed to call you when something you say doesn't make a blind bit of sense, right?