Quote from: James J SkachI have no problem with the Book of Nine Swords, at least not yet; not, at least, as a supplement.  The issue is that it is being cited as one of the main influences for 4th Edition.  That means these tools which can, as you say, model other kinds of heroes outside the "traditional" D&D approach, are now being used to shape the core rules.

So what?  People are talking about the Bo9S as a mechanical influence, not a thematic influence.  I think that creating this dichotomy where you either want to be able to model (in meaningful mechanical terms) fighters doing combat moves more interesting than "I stand there and swing my sword... I block his sword with my shield... I swing my sword... I block his sword with my shield" ad nauseam, OR you like traditional medieval Euro fantasy, but you can't want both, is arguing in bad faith.

If you don't like the thematic influences of Bo9S, then substitute Iron Heroes instead.  Same basic idea of making combat PCs more mechanically involved, and I don't think anyone would say that IH is OMGANIMEKEWL!!!11!!

KoOS

Quote from: Serious PaulI do think it's a little unfair on his part to assume,a and characterize, that everyone who disagrees with his view point is "parochial" or "close minded". He's basically saying people are too old to get it, and man I'm only 32.

I don't think it's unfair on his part when you observe that the people he's responding to are bitching about their assumption (untrue IMO) that moving towards Bo9S-style mechanics is tantamount to making core D&D into some sort of Oriental Adventures-cum-Exalted pastiche or, to be even more parochial, "not Tolkien."  The one who's saying people are too old to get it is James J Skatch, and IIRC he's talking about himself more than anyone else.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old SchoolSo what?  People are talking about the Bo9S as a mechanical influence, not a thematic influence.  I think that creating this dichotomy where you either want to be able to model (in meaningful mechanical terms) fighters doing combat moves more interesting than "I stand there and swing my sword... I block his sword with my shield... I swing my sword... I block his sword with my shield" ad nauseam, OR you like traditional medieval Euro fantasy, but you can't want both, is arguing in bad faith.

If you don't like the thematic influences of Bo9S, then substitute Iron Heroes instead.  Same basic idea of making combat PCs more mechanically involved, and I don't think anyone would say that IH is OMGANIMEKEWL!!!11!!

KoOS

It's a fine idea, King.  I'm simply pointing out the stated influence/philosophy of Bo9S, an attempt to blend Eastern influences with "traditional" D&D, and extrapolating that based on the stated influence of that book on the development of 4th Edition; including the use of the same mechanical developer, Mr. Mearls.

If they do as you say, and create the same kind of "maneuver" based approach but stay more true, for the core rules, to the implied pseudo-medieval-fanasty setting, it might work. I hope it does, I'd love to be a fan of D&D in the future.  But I've said repeatedly, I'll wait to pass judgement until 4th Edition comes out in May(?).

Unfortunately, I won't be able to by IH as I just blew $100 on 3.5 books for various reasons, including Bo9S to try to see what the mentioned influences mean.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolI don't think it's unfair on his part when you observe that the people he's responding to are bitching about their assumption (untrue IMO) that moving towards Bo9S-style mechanics is tantamount to making core D&D into some sort of Oriental Adventures-cum-Exalted pastiche or, to be even more parochial, "not Tolkien."  The one who's saying people are too old to get it is James J Skatch, and IIRC he's talking about himself more than anyone else.

It's not tantamount to - it's a concern that it's what it means. I keep trying to say, if I wasn't clear in earlier posts, that we'll have no idea until the PHB arrives (or something is leaked).

And I believed I included, to clear up confusion, the generic implied fantasy setting of D&D to say it's not just about, parochially, Tolkien. It's about a set of influences that are different for me than they are for someone 10, 20, and 30 years younger.

And I also believe, before Pseudo posted, that I tried to make it clear that this was not a shot at anybody else - it's a matter of taste and influences and my age getting the better of me.  This isn't, and never has been about, anyone else's fun, or ability to enjoy those other styles. And I think I've been pretty clear about that.

So when I get harshed one for whining, it seems to me to a bit disengenuous when I'm calling myself on it.

Quote from: DrewI think you're reading way to much into this. High level fighters doing massive amounts of damage is no more an appeal to Exalted fandom than high level wizards blasting cities to rubble. D&D has always had an epic scope, this is more about keeping the archetypes balanced and interesting than emulating another system's conceits for the sake of appeasing a significantly smaller customer base.

Not the D&D that I remember.  But then, I can probably count on one hand the number of characters that made it out of Basic and into Expert.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolI don't think it's unfair on his part when you observe that the people he's responding to are bitching about their assumption (untrue IMO) that moving towards Bo9S-style mechanics is tantamount to making core D&D into some sort of Oriental Adventures-cum-Exalted pastiche or, to be even more parochial, "not Tolkien." The one who's saying people are too old to get it is James J Skatch, and IIRC he's talking about himself more than anyone else.

Well, I was the one to first make the Exalted reference (in this thread, at least). And I merely noted the (possible) similarities without actually bitching about them. Although, I did add some rolling eyes, which any refugee from the Big Purple will know is highly insiduous and inflamatory.
 
In any event, the comparisons between 4e and Exalted (which I'm sure will become more intense as time progresses), was not because of the shift towards a more oriental style game away from the traditional Tolkien roots. Wizards already crapped over Tolkien with 3e/3.5e. To me, it's about (a) the escalation of power and (b) the emphasis on mechanics.
 
The D&D I played as a kid involved simple stories about a hardy band of adventurers that cleared the local cemetary from an infestation of giant rats, explored the depths of the local catacombs and defended the town from goblin bandits. If we survived for long, we might find ourselves in truly EPIC battles, fighting a pair of marauding ogres or maybe a troll.
 
And the mechanics? Mostly they could be sumarised as thus: "Roll a d20 and hope for a high number". It's easy to forget how simple a game it was.
 
Obviously, things already changed a fair bit with 3e. Looks like they'll change even more with 4e.

You know, honestly, I'm pretty damn tired of measuring a game by how 'Tolkien-esque' it is and especially D&D, which was never particularly geared to that very well anyhow. (I mean, ok, Hobbits and stuff. But the similarities begin to grow slim past that.)

And if you pretty much limit your scope to fantasy=Tolkien, you're really painting a narrow picture for yourself. Now, I'm not saying that's the total scope of what people are limiting themselves to, but it sounds like the default for at least one poster, and that's ok. But, on the other hand, even Western themes vary dramatically, with historical and fanciful weapon styles, schools, and techniques, varied magics to consider, widely variant environments, et al, ad infinium.

To the point where I'm really curious as to what people are fretting about. There seems to be some serious culture-anxiety going around some circles, talking about how D&D has caught 'teh anime' like it was a pox or some shit, just because martial classes'll be able to ready maneuvers (as if it were a bad thing anyhow).

Like Fighters getting access to weapon styles and techniques ='s Exalted, somehow.

Now, I can understand complaints about, oh, power scale or something. But we've honestly got very little understanding on how they're going to scale this bugger. We know it's going up to level 30, and it's been talked about how 3.5 operates on what seems to be a 1-6/7-14/15-20 scale or thereabouts. I heard this game operates on much wider tiers with low level lasting a lot longer. So we'll see.

Overall, I think the worry about eastern or Japanese culture leaking into 'western' fantasy is a little exoticised and faintly racist, not to mention a little silly. As if all of asian culture was somehow compressed into a super-narrow band of anime that some people imagine all asian media to be.

But I doubt that's going to stop Exalted-haters and old-school fans from pointing, denouncing, and shouting 'anime!' as if it were a blanket condemnation.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkWizards already crapped over Tolkien with 3e/3.5e.

That's fine with me. A cow that needed to be slaughtered.

EDIT: I wanna clairify a bit. It's not because I hate Tolkien, because I absolutely love his works. But I'm increasingly doubtful that D&D was ever really the game to model that, mostly because it doesn't very well. Even in a setting were magic is fairly rare, a game with fairly reliable and frequent divine healing and PC wizards doesn't seem to be a game that fits the bill. A mod could do it, but the game out of box needs work.

And I think the less beholden the game is to a single idea of fantasy, the better. I'd like it to be able to mechanically handle knights and dragons as well as more eclectic things. And I think that's more of a gaming group issue then a D&D issue, but a game world can be a big place, and I think there's plenty of room in it for all kinds of crazy shit. Look at our own world. Curiously enough, not all of it was Europe, and not all of it was Southern or Eastern Asia.

QuoteOverall, I think the worry about eastern or Japanese culture leaking into 'western' fantasy is a little exoticised and faintly racist, not to mention a little silly. As if all of asian culture was somehow compressed into a super-narrow band of anime that some people imagine all asian media to be.

No.  Just, no.

Quote from: Thanatos02As if all of asian culture was somehow compressed into a super-narrow band of anime that some people imagine all asian media to be.

I imagine Anime to include very little of actual Asian culture, which is often my problem with it. I equate much of the Anime that's out there with Pop Culture. And just Western Pop Culture, I consider "Eastern" Pop culture to be devoid of actual content, and crap.

QuoteAnd I think the less beholden the game is to a single idea of fantasy, the better. I'd like it to be able to mechanically handle knights and dragons as well as more eclectic things.

Agreed.

Quote from: James J SkachI was unaware that D&D was meant to do so.  Were the Iliad, the Odyssey, or the Aeneid the target of the pseudo-medieval-fantasy implied default setting?  Was OD&D or 1st edition meant to model any of those works? Oh, they weren't? Don't let that interrupt your childish interruptions.

I'm not claiming that they were. I'm claiming that they now can. That's what you're griping about, after all.

Quote from: Serious PaulI imagine Anime to include very little of actual Asian culture, which is often my problem with it. I equate much of the Anime that's out there with Pop Culture. And just Western Pop Culture, I consider "Eastern" Pop culture to be devoid of actual content, and crap.

It's pretty much plus or minus, with some of it being really good and lots of it being really awful, lowest-common denominator pandering.  It's essentially no different then any media one would care to name in terms of quality, with no inherent good.

But it's kinda like saying, "I don't like movies, because they're pretty much devoid of actual content." While statistically true (and I don't like wasting time watching shitty movies), there are some that I really love.

That other's don't care for at all. So, it's kind of a mixed bag. One thing that I do notice is that anime themes really arn't a whole lot different then themes you'd find in the west, except that the cultural base is different. So, it's not really the themes and scale that's speculatively pulled from anime so much as the over the top animation, which can be found in western fantasy too. Even if most of it is really awful (which it totally is).

One thing I hope Wizards doesn't do with D&D 4th is make it 'eastern' simply to make it 'eastern', because it's limiting and self-defeating. But I think fears like that are unfounded. The fluff might borrow from some tropes, but I think it's because Wizards is really looking to do two things: 1 - diversify their mechanical tropes. It has to be mechanically different enough to feel like a different game then 3.5 was. They won't get anywhere selling the same game a third time, and 2 - add new tropes in order to cater to a rapidly evolving crowd. I'm pretty sure the Wizards people are savvy, I think they know that some people will always be dissatisfied, no matter how the rules work, because of preconceived notions, and also because of considered one. But they'll try to hit as broad a group as possible, and that means creating a wide scope to their game.

You can do knights and dragons in 3.5 really easily. I'd pretty much be willing to put money on the idea that knights and dragons will be totally workable in 4th. It's a big demographic.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo.  Just, no.

Well, ok. But only because you said so.

Quote from: Serious PaulI'm not sure who this is directed at, but I am assuming it's me since it follows my post.

I have no desire to recreate the aforementioned combat style, nor do I think my Dungeons and Dragons games have serious problems with the way combat works. So while you're point may be a valid assessment of the hobby as a whole-I can't speak to that since I have no idea what said state is-in my own games you're pretty far from the mark.

Of course that assumes you're even talking to me.

It's directed at Skach mostly, but you and Arcane, and maybe Pierce a little bit are part of my broadside. And of course I'm talking to you. Ignore people is juvenile.

As for your main point in that post, Dungeons and Dragons has had - since 2nd edition at least (I never played 1st so I won't comment on it, but I have played RC and it was true there as well) - a serious problem where Fighters and other combat oriented non-spellcasting classes are much more constrained in their combat options, damage output and "special" features than the spellcasting classes. Some people ignore this problem, but they're ignoring it, not resolving it. The closest D&D got to resolving this prior to the Book of Nine Swords was to give fighters magical weapons, armour and items. There was just no other way for them to compete at high levels with the wizards and priests.

This limit is a problem for many reasons, but the one I mentioned above is that it prevents players from drawing on many potentially interesting and cool ideas from fantastical and mythological traditions. You cannot be a Diomedes, Achilles, Hector or Achilles. To be as effective a fighter as possible, you had to load up on magic swords, swathe yourself in the heaviest magical armour possible, and content yourself with doing 20-some points of damage for the entirety of your career.

What the Book of 9 Swords does is to let players play fighting characters who are considerably more diverse than the ordinary D&D fighter. Instead of just ending up as a magic knight, you can now play anime-style dextrous swordsmen who leap around and throw people through walls. You can play tough Greek heroes who gaffe their enemies with spears and who fling rocks hard enough to crack helmets. The capabilities of a Bo9S warrior are such that they aren't as dependent on magic items, or to the heavy-armour two-handed weapon archetype.

That kind of choice is a good thing. And yes, while it does draw on some anime influences, using the Bo9S doesn't require you to emphasise the anime influence. The Greek heroes are well within the Western heroic fantasy tradition, and only with the Bo9S material can you finally have them in your game at an appropriate level of mechanical effectiveness without having to come up with awkward kludges.

Even if you don't want to be a Greek hero or an anime warrior, there are yet other character archetypes that are now much more easily realised. Opening these new options is a good thing - it gives players and DMs more choice.

Quote from: Thanatos02Overall, I think the worry about eastern or Japanese culture leaking into 'western' fantasy is a little exoticised and faintly racist, not to mention a little silly.

Dude, as a card-carrying Asian person: bullshit.