Quote from: JamesVSee I thought of WoW and the other MMO influences, because in those games, each class has its own set of special abilities.

I was thinking of Drew's paraphrase and James S's quotes from the Book of 9 Swords. "Magic" for Fighters, that's effectively a Chi-like resource for kewl stunting powerz.

Quote from: J ArcaneDude, I'm 25 and even I think that sounds like asspants.

Yeah, sorry about that.  I don't mean to pull the old "I'm older and wiser" bit.  It's a matter of styles, tastes, and influences.

Like I told my wife - when I think of fantasy, I think of Tolkien.  When kids who are, say, 13 to 23 (just after you, J Arcane), I think it's different - to the point that I don't even know what it means to them, except it's obviously different.

Now I'll continue reading BoNS to see what else it says, and Sett could be right about how it's not as bad as I see it. But that bit I quoted is in the beginning of the book in a "Behind the Curtain" sidebar explaining the design "philosophy."  That tells me that even if you can make it something else, it's certainly meant to be a direct nod at the people who do see fantasy in this broader sense - one that's a bit foreign to me.

And that's fine.  I get it.  WotC has to think about the next generation of gamers.  I'm getting over my anger and have moved into the disappointed stage - disappointed that I'm out of the loop; disappointed that the market is moving away from me; disappointed that I'll have to find other alternatives. And that's all OK, it's my problem, not everyone elses.

Looks like RuneQuest is still exerting its influence after all these years, if you ask me....

QuoteLike I told my wife - when I think of fantasy, I think of Tolkien. When kids who are, say, 13 to 23 (just after you, J Arcane), I think it's different - to the point that I don't even know what it means to them, except it's obviously different.

Well, see, I think both you, and Wizards, are giving short shrift to Western fantasy.

Harry Potter, LotR, Narnia, World of Warcraft, Warhammer, Oblivion, all blockbuster household names.  Not to mention there's still considerable weight behind the D&D name itself, which is still very much the very archetype of Western fantasy.  

It's still plenty big.  In fact, I'd say by comparison, the anime stuff is still a niche interest by comparison.  Unless it's Pokemon or Miyazaki, you won't see it selling out theaters in the US anytime soon, and Miyazaki is as much Western-influenced as he is Eastern.  His last film was based on a Diana Wynne Jones book.  

All the more support for what is increasingly becoming apparent:  Wizards has made the mistake of catering to niche interests over it's mass market audience.  They've lost side of who their real base is, and could very well wind up dropping the ball sometihng harsh if things don't straighten up by May of next year.

Yeah go ahead and mark me up in the short sighted crowd, because if Harry Potter and Yugi-Oh is the future, I'll pass.

The Book of Nine Swords is remarkably effective at creating the warriors and warfighting described in the Iliad, the Odyssey and the Aeneid, something Dungeons and Dragons has otherwise failed at doing for years. But don't let that interrupt your parochial whining.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe Book of Nine Swords is remarkably effective at creating the warriors and warfighting described in the Iliad, the Odyssey and the Aeneid, something Dungeons and Dragons has otherwise failed at doing for years. But don't let that interrupt your parochial whining.

So what, we even get the same excuses as the Exalted fanboys too?

Quote from: J ArcaneSo what, we even get the same excuses as the Exalted fanboys too?

Exalted quickly suppressed the classical side of the game in favour of the anime aspect. Dungeons and Dragons did no such thing. The tools of the Book of Nine Swords may be used to emulate anime characters, but they do not require one to do so. All sorts of warriors from outside of the Tolkien fantastical stream may be created using it.

The complaints of most of the posters to this thread that it represents unfamiliar forms of fantasy to them are simply parochial, closeminded complaints that do not evaluate those forms of fantasy on their value or lack thereof, but simply presume as a given that the unfamiliar is bad. While I am not a great fan of anime, it was only after becoming familiar with anime and watching some of it that I decided this.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine...something Dungeons and Dragons has otherwise failed at doing for years.

I'm not sure who this is directed at, but I am assuming it's me since it follows my post.

I have no desire to recreate the aforementioned combat style, nor do I think my Dungeons and Dragons games have serious problems with the way combat works. So while you're point may be a valid assessment of the hobby as a whole-I can't speak to that since I have no idea what said state is-in my own games you're pretty far from the mark.

Of course that assumes you're even talking to me.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe Book of Nine Swords is remarkably effective at creating the warriors and warfighting described in the Iliad, the Odyssey and the Aeneid, something Dungeons and Dragons has otherwise failed at doing for years. But don't let that interrupt your parochial whining.

I was unaware that D&D was meant to do so.  Were the Iliad, the Odyssey, or the Aeneid the target of the pseudo-medieval-fantasy implied default setting?  Was OD&D or 1st edition meant to model any of those works? Oh, they weren't? Don't let that interrupt your childish interruptions.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe complaints of most of the posters to this thread that it represents unfamiliar forms of fantasy to them are simply parochial, close minded complaints that do not evaluate those forms of fantasy on their value or lack thereof, but simply presume as a given that the unfamiliar is bad. While I am not a great fan of anime, it was only after becoming familiar with anime and watching some of it that I decided this.

Oh I'm familiar with it. I'm certainly not a Yugi-Oh historian but I know all I need to know about it, same goes for Harry Potter. I am not afraid of the unfamiliar at all. In fact little that's been mentioned in this thread is unfamiliar to me. (I'd in fact welcome something completely outside the box, as I have yet to see anything really outside the box in a long time.)

A lot of it is still crap to me.

Edit

I get your youth gone wild, rage against the machine persona Pseudo-but it is not substitute for real argumentation, which I think your posts severely lack. I realize your standard reply to someone calling you on a lack of evidence or real arguments is to call them names, so I'll expect a a few to be tossed my way-but seriously dude you're certainly intelligent enough, and I do respect your point of view, so I am hoping for more.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineExalted quickly suppressed the classical side of the game in favour of the anime aspect. Dungeons and Dragons did no such thing. The tools of the Book of Nine Swords may be used to emulate anime characters, but they do not require one to do so. All sorts of warriors from outside of the Tolkien fantastical stream may be created using it.

The complaints of most of the posters to this thread that it represents unfamiliar forms of fantasy to them are simply parochial, closeminded complaints that do not evaluate those forms of fantasy on their value or lack thereof, but simply presume as a given that the unfamiliar is bad. While I am not a great fan of anime, it was only after becoming familiar with anime and watching some of it that I decided this.

See, Pseudo, you just don't get it, being a young turk who thinks he knows it all.

I have no problem with the Book of Nine Swords, at least not yet; not, at least, as a supplement.  The issue is that it is being cited as one of the main influences for 4th Edition.  That means these tools which can, as you say, model other kinds of heroes outside the "traditional" D&D approach, are now being used to shape the core rules.

My concern, totally unable to be proven or disproven until 4th Edition comes out, is that the implementation will make all attempts seem like modelling that which was once considered a supplemental approach and that whcih was "traditional" is left out. All I can go by is rumors - and those don't seem to promising. And that's fine, as I've said before.  It just mght be a big enough break from the past that it loses me, personally.  In fact, it might be a great business move on the part of WotC and I'm sure many will find it to be to their liking.

But you go ahead and call people all sorts of names.  Makes you seem neat to all your emo pals in the basement there at your moms.

You know, you guys got insulting way the hell before he did.

Really?  I did?  I honestly don't know where or when.  If I did, please point it out to me so I can avoid doing the same in the future.

Quote from: Thanatos02You know, you guys got insulting way the hell before he did.

I'll take my hit here. I've seen his style and I expected him to stay true to it, as such I am guilty of a little pre-judging. I did try to keep it less directly insulting and more fun natured, but if I failed at that sorry.

I do think it's a little unfair on his part to assume,a and characterize, that everyone who disagrees with his view point is "parochial" or "close minded". He's basically saying people are too old to get it, and man I'm only 32. I am certainly not as hip as some, but not all of that is just being "old." Nor is being old automatically bad.

But now I've really gone off topic. Sorry folks.