Quote from: PseudoephedrineAlso Jimmy, you've got a lame bunch of stock insults. "Emo"? "Cartoons"? "Cocoa Puffs"? You really seem out of touch with stuff like that it. It's like you're confused about the differences between people in their mid-twenties and people in their mid-teens. Heck, when I mentioned anime, your response was "I've seen some Kung Fu films," as if the two were synonymous. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.

Riddle me this;

Can a man in his forties arguing with twenty-somethings about Dungeons and Dragons on the internet make inferences about pop culture status, coolness, and what there's 'more to life than' and be taken seriously?

Quote from: MetrivusRiddle me this;

Can a man in his forties arguing with twenty-somethings about Dungeons and Dragons on the internet make inferences about pop culture status, coolness, and what there's 'more to life than' and be taken seriously?

I'm still trying to figure out how the anime influence in Tome of Battle is in anyway ambiguous anywhere outside of Pseudo's head.

Quote from: J ArcaneI'm still trying to figure out how the anime influence in Tome of Battle is in anyway ambiguous anywhere outside of Pseudo's head.

I don't think it's ambiguous in ToB, but what is ambiguous is whether that influence, or just mechanics (if even that much), has carried over to 4e. I'm not, of course, speaking for Pseudo however.

/creepy lisping voice/ I've always been a wizard, baby/creepy lisping voice

Quote from: SigmundI don't think it's ambiguous in ToB, but what is ambiguous is whether that influence, or just mechanics (if even that much), has carried over to 4e. I'm not, of course, speaking for Pseudo however.

On that I can agree, this is all just speculation, but then he says stuff like "and by your own admission, don't know much about the Bo9S or any anime influence in it", as if to imply his point goes beyond that, which is funny, considering that James' coments regarding said influence cited a direct quote from the damn book gloating about such influence, while all Pseudo has thus far provided is insults and recycled arguments from old Exalted flamewars.

Quote from: J ArcaneI'm still trying to figure out how the anime influence in Tome of Battle is in anyway ambiguous anywhere outside of Pseudo's head.

I didn't say that it's "ambiguous". I said that Tome of Battle doesn't require or force one to play in an anime style when using it. I even pointed to at least one other kind of play it supports - heroes of the classical world.

Quote from: SigmundI don't think it's ambiguous in ToB, but what is ambiguous is whether that influence, or just mechanics (if even that much), has carried over to 4e. I'm not, of course, speaking for Pseudo however.

This is a small, but crucial difference when evaluating the possible tone of 4E.

Personally I thought the eastern/anime influences on Bo9S were minimal. Then again I've been buying Exalted since it was first published, so my scale may be way off in comparison to others.

Quote from: SigmundI don't think it's ambiguous in ToB, but what is ambiguous is whether that influence, or just mechanics (if even that much), has carried over to 4e. I'm not, of course, speaking for Pseudo however.

I do agree that it's ambiguous which parts of ToB have been carried over to 4e as well, and without knowing that, it's impossible to talk about a potential anime influence on 4e.

As a 41 year old man, I must say I'm shocked to find out there's a difference between kung fu films and anime, shocked!

Ahhh...where to being.  I'll try to stay on topic..

Quote from: PseudoephedrineSkach> I suggest the next sourcebook you consult be a dictionary, Jimmy. Look up "pretentious" and "irony". Don't worry - I hear the Oxford Shorter is strictly Tolkienesque.

Well...pseudy, I did look up pretentious, and lo and behold, there was your picture!  Ironic, huh?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI'm saying that your opinion is unfounded, and without any real basis. And I'm also saying "Well, it's _my_ opinion," isn't a defense of that. Either your opinion is of purely private merit - in which case, shut the fuck up and don't bother the rest of us with your snivelling - or else it's for public debate.

Can you explain to me how, exactly, my opinion is unfounded?  I mean, as J Arcane points out, I'm curious as to which Bo9S you refer, because mine has the exact quotes I provided. BTW, those quotes come before any rules, just after the flavor text – I think it might be page 2 or 3 (I don't have my copy with me here at work). So before any rules are discussed, the first thing the designers do is point out their influences. It seems pretty important to them to have done so.

Will those influences make it into 4th Edition?  I have no idea.  I've said I'll reserve judgment until the actual product ships.  At this point, however, I don't think it's out of the realm of reasonable speculation to wonder if these influences will make it through to the next game considering the lead designer is the same and since they have specifically mentioned it as an influence for the next edition and to extrapolate from that point.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineExcept that it's not changing the "fundamental feel of the game".

That's your opinion. See how this works? You're welcome to that opinion. Mine differs. We will, it appears, not agree. Alas, I'll find a way to sleep tonight.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineBo9S has been out for months now, and attempts to overcome the deficiencies of the fighter archetype have been going on since the Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior was published four years ago.

It "attempts" to do so in a very specific way.  A way that, for me, changes the fundamental feel of the game. I'm sorry for you if you don't feel the same, perhaps we're just so different in play styles that I could never make you see how it does so for me. Unfortunately, you seem to be of the mind that I am not allowed to believe that it changes the game in fundamental ways.

Your response also brings up an interesting thing to me. If it's doing all this to overcome these fighter deficiencies, doesn't that change the feel of the game?  I mean, I've always played in a D&D game where it was pretty well understood that at low levels the fighters were the battle machines, protecting the other classes (magic-user in particular) so when high levels came around, the other classes could use the kick-ass powers they accumulated while the fighter toiled to take off some of the heat. If you balance them out with all of these supernatural and extraordinary powers for fighters – even at low level – doesn't that, by definition, change the fundamental feel of the game? As I've said, perhaps this is just a sign of my age, because you don't see the "fundamental feel of the game" the same way I do – different influences and perspectives and experiences and all that. Which is cool; I just don't know why you have such a problem accepting this other possible perspective.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineWe don't have any information on 4e that would cause us to believe that anything is fundamentally changing in a way that it hasn't already, or that the way that it will change has anything to do with "anime" or an "Eastern" feel. That's really just some paranoid shit you just spontaneously started talking about.

Really?  You didn't hear how Bo9S was going to influence the design of 4th Edition? Did I imagine that?  Can someone help me out?  If I'm wrong about that, I'll rethink everything I've said to this point.

Is it just paranoid shit that the aforementioned Book of Nine Swords cites these very influences (I'll provide them again as you seem to have a stopping point at anime: Japanese Animation, Kung Fu movies, and video game, in that order IIRC)? Based on that information is it paranoid to speculate that the same influences might be in the next Edition? BTW, the anime is the least of my fears - it's the last two that make me more concerned.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYou haven't been clear at all.

Here, let me help you out:

Quote from: James J. SkachNow I'll continue reading BoNS to see what else it says, and Sett could be right about how it's not as bad as I see it. But that bit I quoted is in the beginning of the book in a "Behind the Curtain" sidebar explaining the design "philosophy." That tells me that even if you can make it something else, it's certainly meant to be a direct nod at the people who do see fantasy in this broader sense - one that's a bit foreign to me.

And that's fine. I get it. WotC has to think about the next generation of gamers. I'm getting over my anger and have moved into the disappointed stage - disappointed that I'm out of the loop; disappointed that the market is moving away from me; disappointed that I'll have to find other alternatives. And that's all OK, it's my problem, not everyone elses.

That's from the second fucking post I made apologizing if I came across the wrong way.  See how I say I'll keep reading and I could be wrong? See How I make it my problem and nobody elses?

Quote from: James J. SkachBut I've said repeatedly, I'll wait to pass judgement until 4th Edition comes out in May(?).

How is that for clear?

Quote from: James J. SkachI keep trying to say, if I wasn't clear in earlier posts, that we'll have no idea until the PHB arrives (or something is leaked).

Hmm..does that help?  Ya know, these are all from this very thread. If you read them, it might help. Hey, here's one that was in a post directly to you:

Quote from: James J. SkachAnd if you'd read the posts, you'd see I'm still reading Bo9S and have reserved judgement on it, and 4th Edition, until I've read them.

Clear enough now?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI got into TF for not wanting to read. I haven't attacked you for wanting to read the Bo9S. I got into you for shooting your mouth off about the anime influence without knowing anything about Bo9S or the influence of anime on Dungeons and Dragons. And yes, I also laid into you for acting as if a potential anime influence would automatically be horrible.

See, I think you've got a problem with my dislike for anime, in general. I'm sorry we have different tastes, Pseudy, really I am. But now that I've read a little more of the Bo9S, let me tell you what I'm talking about.

So, I read through the three new classes.  Basic stuff – not too bad. As I said up-thread, the business with devine power and Crusaders seems a bit off, but it's OK.  Then I went to look at some of the Maneuvers. I started with the..what is it...Dust Wind?  Did you know that all but three of the maneuvers include the line, at the end of the description, "this is a supernatural power."  There are blinding lights and streams of fire that can twist around corners; hell there's even one to mimic dragon breath. You know what the first thing I thought of was?  Air Bender. I could totally see taking an unarmed swordsage and having his fist emit/direct fire to mimic the fire benders in that show (don't start with me, I'm not an expert – I've just watched it with my son a few time).

If you don't think a character like that fundamentally changes the feel of the game, then we simply have a different basis of comparison and so will never agree.

I did notice one of the other "schools" had almost no supernatural tag lines, but I ran out of reading time and had to get to work. So I'm still hopeful. But it seems to me that what you have is Fighter Fighter, Devine Fighter, and Arcane Fighter. Great for people who want to play them, but it doesn't bode well for me if they become core. Will anyone just play a fighter?

And, as I've said before, that's fine.  I'm sure lots of people, particularly those of a younger set of influences will find them fun and enjoyable. It just won't have enough ties (as Warthur points out in another thread) to the old days to hold me for one more edition – maybe – we'll see.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAlso Jimmy, you've got a lame bunch of stock insults. "Emo"? "Cartoons"? "Cocoa Puffs"? You really seem out of touch with stuff like that it. It's like you're confused about the differences between people in their mid-twenties and people in their mid-teens.

No, you seem to be a person in his mid-twenties who acts like he's in his mid teens.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineHeck, when I mentioned anime, your response was "I've seen some Kung Fu films," as if the two were synonymous. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.

No. my response was to inform you it's not all about anime – about which you seem to have a particular hang-up. It's about this idea that making fighters better so they can stand up at higher levels by letting them jump around and throw fire from their swords and break rocks with a touch is somehow not finally breaking with the idea of standard-stock-implied-fantasy of past D&D editions. I have no problem with anyone who wants to play whatever it turns out to be.  I'm sure it will be a rocking good time for lots of folks. But if it includes, in the core rules, anything that resembles the Dust Wind maneuvers – it might just be the last edition I own and play is already on my shelves.

If you can't handle that, I'm sorry for you. You shouldn't care so much about what one old man in Illinois thinks.  You're too smart to waste that potential.

Quote from: MetrivusRiddle me this;

Can a man in his forties arguing with twenty-somethings about Dungeons and Dragons on the internet make inferences about pop culture status, coolness, and what there's 'more to life than' and be taken seriously?

Inferences about pop culture status or coolness?  I claim to have no specific knowledge of either. I do get the distinct sense the influences that reuslt from it are different than mine - it is, IMHO, inevitable.

And why anyone would take me seriously is beyond me. I'm just here cause I'm bored at work and the client has their software...

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI didn't say that it's "ambiguous". I said that Tome of Battle doesn't require or force one to play in an anime style when using it. I even pointed to at least one other kind of play it supports - heroes of the classical world.

Just to note, neither did I.  It's a supplement.  As a supplement, it's not par tof the Core Rules.  What it allows people to do in conjunction with the core rules is not really my concern.

I said from the start - if this supplement influences the core rules in such a way that it changes the fundamental fell of the game for me, I'l probably not play the next edition.

All of it is contingent on how much it influences it and it what ways.  The fact that it is an influence is not, I think, debated.  Is it?

So the question is how and to what extent the influences cited in Bo9S go on to influence 4th Edition. And let me be clear - I'm sure no matter what direction it goes, there will be a large group of gamers who absolutely love it. I hope they get a great product they can have fun playing.  ANd I hope I can be one of them.

In all fairness Desert Wind is the most supernatural style in the book, and is only known to the Swordsage, which is the overtly magical 'melee wizard' class. It's also the first discipline that's gone in to in any detail, so it's little surprise that people reading Bo9S will think that's what all the styles are like.

Check out Iron Heart or Tiger Claw, as they seem to be the direction WotC are heading in when they talk about maneuvers for the fighter in 4E.

QuoteCheck out Iron Heart or Tiger Claw, as they seem to be the direction WotC are heading in when they talk about maneuvers for the fighter in 4E.

My reaction to this comment is simply to point at the nomenclature and ask you to reconsider how names that sound like bad pastiche of kung fu movies might in and of themselves be offputting.

Quote from: J ArcaneMy reaction to this comment is simply to point at the nomenclature and ask you to reconsider how names that sound like bad pastiche of kung fu movies might in and of themselves be offputting.

:haw:

Having said that (laughed that, actually), I do plan on reading the rest.  This is just the first one in the section, probably alpha organized.  If not, then it tells me this is the one they think the most people will think the coolest.  But I'm guess Alpha...