Quote from: RPGPunditThe D&D Monk is about as "oriental" as Walker:Texas Ranger.

Actually, the D&D Monk is as "oriental" as David Carradine.

Quote from: BrantaiThat's as may be, but it certainly wasn't inspired by western fantasy.

No, it was inspired by the early 1970s television show Kung Fu, which was 1 part Western and one part 1970s Kung Fu movie, neither of which mesh well with the Western fantasy inspirations for most of the other D&D classes.

Oh, and let's not forget psionics.  That was always an odd fit for D&D, too.  Maybe if D&D had gone more gonzo Sword & Sorcery and less Tolkien, it would have worked better.

Sorry it wasn't exactly the way you wanted it.

Quote from: chucklesIs this what your insider knowledge is telling you they are doing?  Cause they sure haven't said they are changing it into dragon ball z.

As bad as pundit can be, "chuckles," I think he's arguing that there have always been, since the monk class, eastern influences in D&D - and those never turned it into Dragon Ball Z.  Therefore, my concerns should not be as pronounced as the "eastern" influences have always existed and never done so.

See what happens when you try to read posts instead of taking pot shots at people? The intraweb can be fun!

Quote from: James J SkachAs bad as pundit can be, "chuckles," I think he's arguing that there have always been, since the monk class, eastern influences in D&D - and those never turned it into Dragon Ball Z. Therefore, my concerns should not be as pronounced as the "eastern" influences have always existed and never done so.

Well, Dragon Ball Z didn't exist when D&D was first published.  So the existence of the monk class was hardly going to push the game in a particular direction that most fans had never even conceived.  
 
Things are different now.
 
In any event, I've always considered the monk class as a stupid inclusion.  It was stupid in 1e and it's stupid in 3e.  And if it appears in 4e, it'll still be stupid.  IMHO, of course
 
As a class in Oriental Adventures?  Now that's a completely different story.

Nah. I disagree. Monks are totally cool. They were cool back in 1E and they are cool now.

Quote from: DeadUematsuNah. I disagree. Monks are totally cool. They were cool back in 1E and they are cool now.

Monks are cool, but the feeling I get from reading the Classes article on the DNDInsider is that Monk basicly becomes a fighter.

The article seemed to hint that fighters will be be defined based on their weapon of choice. So a sword fighter is different from a spear fighter is differernt from a flail fighter, etc.

Well, a monk might/could be an 'unarmed' fighter. Er.. usually.

Thats my guess, anyhow.

All of this spawned from the fact that the fighter mechanic will change so they get special combat abilities?

If this somehow forces your game to become Dragonball Z and totally changes the entire theme and setting of your game, you have a seriously shitty DM.

Skach> You're a whiny fuck trying to pretend he's not. Dressing up that whining as "concerns" is just pretentious. It pretends that your complaints have an underlying legitimacy that they lack. You know next to nothing about D&D 4e, and by your own admission, don't know much about the Bo9S or any anime influence in it, and yet you're perfectly happy to shoot your mouth off about how terrible it would be. Claiming "Well, it's just my opinion!" is childish. If it's not for public discussion, then GYOFB and leave us be.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineSkach> You're a whiny fuck trying to pretend he's not. Dressing up that whining as "concerns" is just pretentious. It pretends that your complaints have an underlying legitimacy that they lack. You know next to nothing about D&D 4e, and by your own admission, don't know much about the Bo9S or any anime influence in it, and yet you're perfectly happy to shoot your mouth off about how terrible it would be. Claiming "Well, it's just my opinion!" is childish. If it's not for public discussion, then GYOFB and leave us be.

Awww...look at the cute wittle bitty pseudo...he's going to have a tantrum.  Is there a time out chair here he can use?

The most ironic part if pseudo calling anyone pretentious.

Nobody knows much about 4th Edition, fuckwit.  The whole point is its all speculation. If we were all limited to talk about what we know about 4th Edition, there'd be very little to talk about.  Since talking about things is what a board is about, I think it's fair. In this particular case, the whole point of the thread is to talk about fighters and how they have "wizard-like" abilities, or don't, as per the original post.

I'm shooting my mouth off about how it would be terrible to me. Apparently, you'll just love it, still watching cartoons while mommy gets your Cocoa Puffs ready and getting wood over the little cartoon girls. Me?  I'm just trying to assess what's coming with what information I have available. Stating it's just my opinion that is based on my influences and tastes, along with all of the caveats, makes it clear to anyone who might read it that its not an attempt to state fact or objective truth.  Too many arguments, IMHO, get started because of that misunderstanding.  And here you are calling me childish (the irony!) for trying to be as clear as I can. And how does any of this make it not for public discussion?

I've been clear about how this is an opinion based on my tastes and how it will affect me. I've been careful to point out how it's not "just anime" or "Eastern" that make me skittish, but the possibility of changing the fundamental feel of the game. I've been clear about how I'm reserving my judgement.  I've been clear about my lack of familiarity with the Bo9S, something I'm trying to rectify (really, what's the big difference after all between Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade except in the specifics and the number of readied maneuvers? I'm sure I'll find out when I read more...). I've been clear about how I might be the odd one out and in the minority.

So imagine that.  Faced with something new and different, I'm attempting to understand it better by reading.  You got into TF about preferring not to have to read alot, now your getting into me for trying to do that? Make up your fucking mind will you?

You're just upset because I called you one one of your little stock rants against people that make you feel important - this whole "you're narrow minded if you won't even try" shit you pull all the time.  Like your some uber mind open to any experience and we're all a bunch of plebes who don't know how to live because we're more dicriminating in our tastes.

Stop your fucking crying and get out of mommies basement.  There's more to life than reading philosophy books, going to school, and trying to prove how smart you are to make up for your lack of social abilities.

:respect:

Quote from: James J SkachThe most ironic part if pseudo calling anyone pretentious.

:haw: :haw: :haw:

Quote from: John MorrowActually, the D&D Monk is as "oriental" as David Carradine.

Yes, even more apt.

RPGPundit

Quote from: John MorrowActually, the D&D Monk is as "oriental" as David Carradine.

I've seen him at cons - he's closer to the Drunken Master.

Skach> I suggest the next sourcebook you consult be a dictionary, Jimmy. Look up "pretentious" and "irony". Don't worry - I hear the Oxford Shorter is strictly Tolkienesque.

Quote from: JimmyI'm shooting my mouth off about how it would be terrible to me. Apparently, you'll just love it, still watching cartoons while mommy gets your Cocoa Puffs ready and getting wood over the little cartoon girls. Me? I'm just trying to assess what's coming with what information I have available. Stating it's just my opinion that is based on my influences and tastes, along with all of the caveats, makes it clear to anyone who might read it that its not an attempt to state fact or objective truth. Too many arguments, IMHO, get started because of that misunderstanding. And here you are calling me childish (the irony!) for trying to be as clear as I can. And how does any of this make it not for public discussion?

I'm saying that your opinion is unfounded, and without any real basis. And I'm also saying "Well, it's _my_ opinion," isn't a defense of that. Either your opinion is of purely private merit - in which case, shut the fuck up and don't bother the rest of us with your snivelling - or else it's for public debate.

QuoteI've been clear about how this is an opinion based on my tastes and how it will affect me. I've been careful to point out how it's not "just anime" or "Eastern" that make me skittish, but the possibility of changing the fundamental feel of the game.

Except that it's not changing the "fundamental feel of the game". Bo9S has been out for months now, and attempts to overcome the deficiencies of the fighter archetype have been going on since the Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior was published four years ago. We don't have any information on 4e that would cause us to believe that anything is fundamentally changing in a way that it hasn't already, or that the way that it will change has anything to do with "anime" or an "Eastern" feel. That's really just some paranoid shit you just spontaneously started talking about.

QuoteI've been clear about how I'm reserving my judgement.

You haven't been clear at all.

QuoteI've been clear about my lack of familiarity with the Bo9S, something I'm trying to rectify (really, what's the big difference after all between Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade except in the specifics and the number of readied maneuvers? I'm sure I'll find out when I read more...). I've been clear about how I might be the odd one out and in the minority.

So imagine that. Faced with something new and different, I'm attempting to understand it better by reading. You got into TF about preferring not to have to read alot, now your getting into me for trying to do that? Make up your fucking mind will you?

I got into TF for not wanting to read. I haven't attacked you for wanting to read the Bo9S. I got into you for shooting your mouth off about the anime influence without knowing anything about Bo9S or the influence of anime on Dungeons and Dragons. And yes, I also laid into you for acting as if a potential anime influence would automatically be horrible.

Also Jimmy, you've got a lame bunch of stock insults. "Emo"? "Cartoons"? "Cocoa Puffs"? You really seem out of touch with stuff like that it. It's like you're confused about the differences between people in their mid-twenties and people in their mid-teens. Heck, when I mentioned anime, your response was "I've seen some Kung Fu films," as if the two were synonymous. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.