Quote from: Benoist;476851Yeah. The rewinding to the save game thing is a bad move. I'd tell the DM to grow some balls: there was a TPK. That's it. The end. The players should grow a pair too and live with the consequences. Pick up the game with new characters investigating the previous ones' disparition, or play another game, whatnot... PCs deaths are opportunities. They represent a chance at new beginnings. Not ends.

My Main problem is the bad guys he put us up against were 3rd and 4th level while our characters were fresh level 1 characters.

That, topped with other things he did will probably make me not continue with the game.    It is just a part of the many bad DMing things this guy did.

Quote from: Mistwell;476852If you had an extended rest prior to this encounter, the odds should have been with you to win that battle (though wounded and exhausting your dailies). It's built into the encounter rules that you should be able to handle an encounter with higher level challenges such as those. Were you just particularly unlucky in rolls and/or tactics?

There were bad rolls on both sides, one of the players went after the shaman who was farther away instead of one of the two remaining goblins so sure, there were mistakes made.

However when you have 5 level 1 players you don't put them up against 5 level 3 and level 4 npcs.  Hell, we are level 1 and we have already encountered a dragon.

In the 3.5 game I played in we were a few levels up before we came across a dragon.   I think it was a mix of mistakes being made by both the DM and the players.

Quote from: Cranewings;476859No one says you have to fight every fight. Can't you outrun goblins?

I had considered it but my character would have had to go against a couple bad guys which would have invoked acts of oppertunities.

Quote from: Imperator;476884Grow a pair and do as Melan suggests. I've never stopped a campaign due to a TPK, and no one has ever complained, in 25 years of gaming. So it must not be so terrible.

I am going to quit because the TPK was just a symptom in a line of other problems in the game.

I just don't think the DM is good and I would rather not play then play with a Bad DM

Quote from: jgants;476889How unbalanced was this ambush encounter?  Was it after a long series of battles?

IME with the 4e rules, it's pretty difficult to get a TPK unless:
A) You've had a long series of at least 4 fights without resting
B) The fight is level +5 or more
C) The PCs are not very good at using their powers/tactics

We actually had rested.  The problem was that it was an ambush encounter and it was 5 level 1 PC's vs.  Five Level 3 and Level 4 NPCS.   I think it was just unbalanced and the DM just chose the wrong adventure for characters at our level

Quote from: Daedalus;476948However when you have 5 level 1 players you don't put them up against 5 level 3 and level 4 npcs.  Hell, we are level 1 and we have already encountered a dragon.

In 4e, you don't scale encounters with monsters of exact level. The EL math allows DMs to mix and match by points. If you have 5 1st level PCs, you have 500 points for an average encounter and up to 875 if you want a hard encounter.  A 3rd level foe is 150 pts and a 4th level foe is 175 points so that could have been 875 points.  A young white dragon is 750 points and a young black dragon is 875 - those are tough fights for 5 PCs of 1st level and good fights for 6 PCs of 1st.

Of course, PCs can also feel the battlefield. There is no reason to stick around and get slaughtered. Between a standard and move action, most PCs can cover 16 squares and flee the area.

I was just in a TPK this morning as a matter of fact: Lair Assaults is pretty much a TPK waiting to happen. Has anyone else played this yet? We lasted 13 rounds.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;476963I was just in a TPK this morning as a matter of fact: Lair Assaults is pretty much a TPK waiting to happen. Has anyone else played this yet? We lasted 13 rounds.

Maybe next week. What did you bring into battle?

I am considering a Deva Invoker, Deva Avenger or Elf Ranger.  My buds are bringing a Human Wizard or Human Sorcerer, a Human Fighter and maybe a Shardling Psion.

Of course, we are debating just bringing Paladins + Rangers and going in Seal Team 6 style like friends used in the DDXP delves.

Quote from: Daedalus;476952We actually had rested.  The problem was that it was an ambush encounter and it was 5 level 1 PC's vs.  Five Level 3 and Level 4 NPCS.   I think it was just unbalanced and the DM just chose the wrong adventure for characters at our level

It's a level 1 adventure. The only reason I haven't referenced it yet is that the one thing I detest most is players who read a module the GM runs and then bitch to the GM that he ran it wrong (NB mock video, but still hilarious). Let me know when you've definitely left your group, and I'll specify the thing in question, so you may then make up your mind how fair or unfair your GM really was.

Quote from: Spinachcat;476979Maybe next week. What did you bring into battle?

I am considering a Deva Invoker, Deva Avenger or Elf Ranger.  My buds are bringing a Human Wizard or Human Sorcerer, a Human Fighter and maybe a Shardling Psion.

Of course, we are debating just bringing Paladins + Rangers and going in Seal Team 6 style like friends used in the DDXP delves.

We brought a team of all warforged- we were set up as a group of decommissioned mining constructs. I had a Warforged battlerager. You need to pull out all of the stops on this one, whatever you do.

Quote from: Windjammer;476984It's a level 1 adventure. The only reason I haven't referenced it yet is that the one thing I detest most is players who read a module the GM runs and then bitch to the GM that he ran it wrong (NB mock video, but still hilarious). Let me know when you've definitely left your group, and I'll specify the thing in question, so you may then make up your mind how fair or unfair your GM really was.

I watched that video and I didnt think it was real (although I am not 100% sur its not) but that wasnt me by a long shot.

First, I didnt read the adventure we played, and I wasn't that pissed off I was just disappointed because that TPK was part of the many bullshit things the DM did.   I just think he is a bad DM and it's just best that I find another 4e game with a better DM.  Let's face it, there are shit DM's out there and this guy is just one of them.   I am not going to go nerd rage about it, I am just going to find a better DM and move on

If you don't want to continue playing, don't. If you want to, do. It's as simple as that. Complaining that you were ambushed by higher level enemies and got killed when you still had the opportunity to flee is annoying even if your DM sucks.

Quote from: Daedalus;477036First, I didnt read the adventure we played, and I wasn't that pissed off I was just disappointed because that TPK was part of the many bullshit things the DM did.   I just think he is a bad DM and it's just best that I find another 4e game with a better DM.  Let's face it, there are shit DM's out there and this guy is just one of them.   I am not going to go nerd rage about it, I am just going to find a better DM and move on

I'm curious to hear what other BS things your DM is doing. It might teach some of us other DMs what not to do.

 If you don't want to share and just leave the game, that's cool.  ;o)

Quote from: Windjammer;476912All true, but still not applicable to the case at hand. As I said upthread, this module's difficulty scales according to the choices of the PCs outside combat - in particular, to how perceptive and stealthy they are.

I disagree, regardless of whether or not poor choices/rolls led to the encounter being unbalanced, the reason for the TPK comes down to bad PC tactics (not using powers very well / not running away) and/or the encounter being too powerful.

Quote from: Daedalus;476952We actually had rested.  The problem was that it was an ambush encounter and it was 5 level 1 PC's vs.  Five Level 3 and Level 4 NPCS.   I think it was just unbalanced and the DM just chose the wrong adventure for characters at our level

Is that 5 level 3 and 5 level 4, or 5 total mixed between level 3 and level 4?  

If you were fighting 10 total, that may be a bit unbalanced though IME a fully-rested party is usually able to handle it.

Which isn't to say your DM didn't make a bunch of mistakes or bad calls, just that it doesn't really sound that outrageous to me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;476957In 4e, you don't scale encounters with monsters of exact level. The EL math allows DMs to mix and match by points. If you have 5 1st level PCs, you have 500 points for an average encounter and up to 875 if you want a hard encounter.  A 3rd level foe is 150 pts and a 4th level foe is 175 points so that could have been 875 points.  A young white dragon is 750 points and a young black dragon is 875 - those are tough fights for 5 PCs of 1st level and good fights for 6 PCs of 1st.

Of course, PCs can also feel the battlefield. There is no reason to stick around and get slaughtered. Between a standard and move action, most PCs can cover 16 squares and flee the area.

I always found PCs, especially fully-rested ones and even with a group of suboptimal characters and tactics, could wipe the floor with most "hard" encounters.  The math only really works to make things difficult if you do several encounters a day IMO.

Quote from: Daedalus;476952We actually had rested.  The problem was that it was an ambush encounter and it was 5 level 1 PC's vs.  Five Level 3 and Level 4 NPCS.   I think it was just unbalanced and the DM just chose the wrong adventure for characters at our level

I can't speak to whether the DM is good or bad, but having run this module for two groups recently, I can tell you that the fight in question is perfectly reasonable and balanced for a 1st level party (although if you had played through the rest of the module, I would have thought that your characters would have been 2nd level by the time they got to that fight).  One of my groups avoided the fight (because they had lost 2 of 4 characters in a previous fight...), while the other group handily defeated the opponents in the fight in question.

John