TheRPGSite

Scooped to a degree in the Mongoose thread, but I thought it merited it's own thread.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=557512

and more particularly:

QuoteThe fourth edition is something of an odd duck for us, and it is no secret that sales thus far have been somewhat behind those for third edition. The game itself is very different from its predecessors.

Fans are reading that as saying sales of third party products are behind those for third edition, but that's plainly not what it says.

Interesting stuff.

That's what happens when making up your own stuff for the system is pretty effortless.

Quote from: One Horse Town;270688That's what happens when making up your own stuff for the system is pretty effortless.

That's true for tons of systems, it doesn't normally stop a clamour for supplements.

I suspect the massive global recession may be a factor myself.

Quote from: Balbinus;270699That's true for tons of systems, it doesn't normally stop a clamour for supplements.

Absolutely. However, tonnes of systems aren't d&d 3e.

There are definitely fewer supplements.  Part of that might be fewer get rich quick schemes of crappy D20 products, which Mongoose was a big part of with 3E.  More companies ahve realized that it's not worth doing unless they are serious about it. The lack of a truly open OGL probably scared people off as well.  But a horde of questionable supplements, many of which were competing products instead of D&D supplements didn't help wotc all that much.
 
There seems to be less buzz  post release than there was with 3E, but that could be my imagination.
 
I suspect that total 4e wotc sales are lower than wotc 3e sales were.  But I haven't seen any hard numbers, so I'm hesistant to make much of it.

I must be somewhat dense.  I didn't see any replies on Mongoose that said anything about 4e, and I don't know what thread over here scooped this announcement where people are talking about this.

In the Mathew Sprange post linked at the top of the other thread, Sprange wrote:
"The fourth edition is something of an odd duck for us, and it is no secret that sales thus far have been somewhat behind those for third edition. The game itself is very different from its predecessors. "
 
Presumedly, he had enough connections to have some numbers from distributors but he's not likely to have exact overall sales numbers.

It is doubtful that the RPG industry will ever spring back to pre-WoW numbers. Too much of the fanbase has vanished and WotC failed with 3e and 4e to market effectively to teens.   Each edition is just recycling buyers of the last edition with minimal new blood, but lots of loss of old blood.

I got the impression that 3e brought in a fair amount of new blood, though old players still accounted for well over half the players. Quite a few of the ENWorld and WOTC forum members had 3e as their first game.

Quote from: Spinachcat;270723It is doubtful that the RPG industry will ever spring back to pre-WoW numbers. Too much of the fanbase has vanished and WotC failed with 3e and 4e to market effectively to teens.   Each edition is just recycling buyers of the last edition with minimal new blood, but lots of loss of old blood.

Isn't that the sort of complaint that's made every decade or so, though?  The core market is lost to another medium and the industry limps along by selling and re-selling to the same old hobbyist diehards.  Sooner or later, someone (maybe WotC) will come out with a gaming product that will reinvigorate the hobby, probably coinciding with an upturn in the general worldwide economic forecast, and a new standard will be set for sales numbers.  4e just wasn't the blockbuster it was hoped to be, for a variety of factors.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;270731Sooner or later, someone (maybe WotC) will come out with a gaming product that will reinvigorate the hobby, probably coinciding with an upturn in the general worldwide economic forecast, and a new standard will be set for sales numbers.  

Yep, just as happened with the wargaming hobby. After acquiring SPI, TSR spend millions on developing a new generation of wargame, used its clout to put it in stores, and the rest was history.

Or something like that.

Smartass cynic. :p

!i!

Quality issues aside, I don't think the economy is helping.

I had always heard that the entertainment industry does as well or better in times of economic crisis.  Escapism is always popular, but never so much as when there is plenty to escape from.  Plus the dollar-to-time ratio is often quite a bit better than other purchases.  Black Friday reports claim a 7% increase over last year, and I would assume a fair bit of that is entertainment dollars, such as DVDs, video games, and so on.

Quote from: StormBringer;270803I had always heard that the entertainment industry does as well or better in times of economic crisis.  Escapism is always popular, but never so much as when there is plenty to escape from.  Plus the dollar-to-time ratio is often quite a bit better than other purchases.  Black Friday reports claim a 7% increase over last year, and I would assume a fair bit of that is entertainment dollars, such as DVDs, video games, and so on.

I can see that.

But don't forget that many of the RPG producers, printers, distributors, and retailers may be relying on credit in order to keep product moving (and unlike the big industries of video games and movies, they don't have nearly as big of pockets).  If that's the case, the tightening of the credit market could be more than enough to offset the increase in consumer demand.

Quote from: StormBringer;270803I had always heard that the entertainment industry does as well or better in times of economic crisis.  Escapism is always popular, but never so much as when there is plenty to escape from.  

I doubt most RPG book purchases these days qualify as entertainment spending. They're more like collecting. If you have 14 RPG books sitting on your shelf that you've hardly done more than flick through and make some notes about, then are you really going to lay down scarce 'entertainment' dollars on a 15th or 16th book? Actually using the RPG books you already own is a far more sensible choice than buying yet another book to stick on the shelf.

Another catch: Folks are figuring out that MMOs provide far superior value for their cash than TRPGs due to the vastly increased time spent actually playing the game.

Quote from: Haffrung;270843I doubt most RPG book purchases these days qualify as entertainment spending. They're more like collecting.

That's not a bad way of looking at things.

Also: the glut of d20 supplements did not exactly help the reputation of the companies shovelling out crap... and Mongoose was the one shovelling most diligently (although it must be granted that they were not the bottom of the barrel - that was Jim Ward's Fast Forward Entertainment). It is unsurprising that customers are more careful about committing money to new books, especially since Wizards capitalised heavily on this sentiment... "official products with official game designer wisdom" was their formula, and this formula happened to work. And so did the underhanded tactics with the GSL.

And of course: yeah, 4e is a different, very different game. It caters precisely to the needs of a narrower group of people than 3e. It is focus groupped well as a specialised product. For the fringes of the audience, it is not so good, but then nobody owes them anyone. Where I suspect this scheme may fail is that
a) these "fringes" make up a much larger segment of the audience than the marketers estimated, and they don't owe the publishers anything either, gradually dropping off as buying customers;
b) the core audience of the game is especially susceptible to acquisition by other forms of entertainment, e.g. MMORPGs, and may splinter off more quickly;
c) natural disasters and acts of God.

The next few years should be highly entertaining, and provide us with a rich source of DRAMA. :popcorn:

Quote from: Spinachcat;270723It is doubtful that the RPG industry will ever spring back to pre-WoW numbers. Too much of the fanbase has vanished and WotC failed with 3e and 4e to market effectively to teens.   Each edition is just recycling buyers of the last edition with minimal new blood, but lots of loss of old blood.

I sometimes think like this but then I have to catch myself and say, hang on, I know plenty of young whippersnappers who got into D&D through 3e. I think maybe older players just don't have much contact with those types of people, for obvious reasons, so they aren't aware that they exist.

As far as the OP goes, I agree with Melan that it's probably down to 4e having a relatively tight focus compared to previous editions. No longer being all things to all men, it has obviously shed a fair number of people who've decided, "Nah, it ain't for me."

Quote from: Balbinus;270681Fans are reading that as saying sales of third party products are behind those for third edition, but that's plainly not what it says.

Why not?

QuoteSooner or later, someone (maybe WotC) will come out with a gaming product that will reinvigorate the hobby, probably coinciding with an upturn in the general worldwide economic forecast, and a new standard will be set for sales numbers.

I'm gonna to be the contrarian here, per usual. RPGs were born out of the sluggish economy of the 70s and at first largely appealed to suburban Midwesterners who didn't have a lot of entertainment options or much loose cash. If marketed correctly an economic recession could be a boom time for tabletop gaming. At their most basic level, rpgs provide lots of entertainment over a long period of time and can be supplemented for free by the user. Having little cash to spend influences people to spend more time writing about and playing rpgs. Same goes for joblessness - just personally speaking, every time I've been out of work I've turned to gaming to relieve the boredom.

The problem, as I see it, is that most companies want to make over-produced and very expensive games with lots of accessories for the rich kid market. The people who design that crap have gotten used to being treated like geek gods for so long, it's almost impossible for them to imagine a gaming hobby that doesn't require their 'services'. That kind of elitism WILL certainly suffer from an economic downturn. What happens to something like 4E when the kids can't afford all those garish minis and rulebooks?

I predict after watching it go down the financial drain, the HASBROthers will suddenly start talking about a 'return to basics' and act like they've been playing nothing but OD&D for the past 20 years. Y'know, absorb the avant garde, bend it, crush it, farm and sell it as the new 'pop music' to kids who don't know any better. [Hmm....WOTC as Col. Tom Parker or P. Diddy?]

As a side-issue: I get the impression that, at one point, TSR was making more money from D&D-related products than from D&D itself; novels for example. What happened to that business model? Or is that what they still do?

Age of Fable: if I recall correctly, they became over-enthusiastic. The books sold very well at first, but when TSR expanded more and more, the new product lines failed to take off, and the company was eventually hit hard by book returns. About the same happened to game lines; FR, Dragonlance and generic D&D products sold, the world boxed sets sold, the niche products didn't.

I suppose it was not an entirely bad strategy; it was just a strategy they expected too much from.

Quote from: Kellri;270864At their most basic level, rpgs provide lots of entertainment over a long period of time and can be supplemented for free by the user.

And how is that good for publishers? So you sell the core rule books, then... what? Close up shop?

Quote from: Kellri;270864The problem, as I see it, is that most companies want to make over-produced and very expensive games with lots of accessories for the rich kid market. The people who design that crap have gotten used to being treated like geek gods for so long, it's almost impossible for them to imagine a gaming hobby that doesn't require their 'services'. That kind of elitism WILL certainly suffer from an economic downturn. What happens to something like 4E when the kids can't afford all those garish minis and rulebooks?

I disagree. I think the folks at WotC/Hasbro have a pretty good sense of their market, and their market loves the chrome. Production values are hugely important to selling stuff to the younger gaming crowd. Remember, Hasbro is a pretty successful boardgame producer, and their wargames all have heaps of miniatures and glossy rules. The gamers raised on those standards are appalled when they see the production values of the historical wargames hobby industry. Poke around boardgamegeek for a while and you'll see what I mean. Nothing could make the D&D market evaporate faster than cutting back on production values.

Sorry, frugal older gamers will never be the target for a mainstream commercial RPG. It's over. You're part of a small, amateur, micro-niche hobby. If historical wargamers can happily resign themselves to that reality, then I don't see why RPGers can't.

Quote from: Age of Fable;270872As a side-issue: I get the impression that, at one point, TSR was making more money from D&D-related products than from D&D itself; novels for example. What happened to that business model? Or is that what they still do?

I'm pretty sure that DC and Marvel make far more from franchising their characters into products and movies than they do on the shrinking comic market.  I think Hasbro hopes to use D&D this way, but they don't seem to have managed much so far beyond the paperbacks.
 
Some of Hasbro's moves have been about protecting the D&D image.  That was probably the push to changing the 4e license - they don't want books of elven porn getting in the way of a new cartoon deal.

Quote from: Nicephorus;270886Some of Hasbro's moves have been about protecting the D&D image.  That was probably the push to changing the 4e license - they don't want books of elven porn getting in the way of a new cartoon deal.

So much for the idea that they watch a lot of anime then.

Quote from: jgants;270833But don't forget that many of the RPG producers, printers, distributors, and retailers may be relying on credit in order to keep product moving (and unlike the big industries of video games and movies, they don't have nearly as big of pockets).  If that's the case, the tightening of the credit market could be more than enough to offset the increase in consumer demand.

Moreover, if your livelihood come from being a producer rather than a seller, would you really be looking to expand your operations right now?

Let's say you're in the RPG industry. What happens when your printer goes under, taking your product and money with it? Or your warehouse goes out of business and you can't get your product our because there's no one at the business. Your customers might be willing to buy, but if the FLGSes are gone and the chain booksellers are charging an arm and a leg because their shipping company passed the increase cost of gas to the bookseller, then is it worth it?

Seanchai

Quote from: Kellri;270864If marketed correctly an economic recession could be a boom time for tabletop gaming. At their most basic level, rpgs provide lots of entertainment over a long period of time and can be supplemented for free by the user. Having little cash to spend influences people to spend more time writing about and playing rpgs.

This thought had crossed my mind, too.  And, on a related issue, perhaps a leaner economy might encourage domestic printers to bring their printing costs down and stimulate local economies instead of printing everything in China and shipping them worldwide.  No, I'm not entirely supportive of globalised economies, good mixed with the bad and all that.

!i!

Quote from: Haffrung;270881Production values are hugely important to selling stuff to the younger gaming crowd.

Where is this mythical "younger gaming crowd"? Or, maybe, a better question is: What do you consider to be a young gamer? Because I have yet to encounter or play with any.

Seanchai

This is strictly anecdotal, but...

I was a supervisor at a Borders superstore during the time that 3e was shiny and new.  I was also personally responsible for maintaining and tracking sales in the games section of the bookstore.  Many, many young kids were getting into D&D at the time; I regularly fielded questions from confused parents, and many kids (ages 8-18, not to mention a large number of college kids) spent a considerable amount of time lounged on benches and couches in the store perusing the latest splats and sourcebooks.  We also had a lot of WW and GoO stuff, and that was snapped up along with D&D.

At least in my area, 3e did seem to pull in a lot of young blood.  While I didn't care for 3e, it did my heart good to see kids get genuinely excited over new RPG material.

3.5 didn't seem to have the same effect, however.

Oh, and I also ran an online 2e campaign with the old WebRPG app around the same time.  My players ranged in age from 12 to 16, plus one of the kids' fathers (an old school guy who was jazzed by 3e), and were from various parts of the country.  The kids all got their start with 3e.

(They were okay with 2e, but it wasn't their cuppa...they liked the campaign enough to stick with it, though!)

Quote from: Haffrung;270881I think the folks at WotC/Hasbro have a pretty good sense of their market, and their market loves the chrome. Production values are hugely important to selling stuff to the younger gaming crowd.

You may have noticed that recently the "market" has been taking nasty kick to the nuts.  The consumer's love of "chrome" is born out of a thriving economy with an excess of expendable income.  People's standards for bare minimum production levels may be realigned somewhat in the next couple of years.

I think that you're right that Hasbro has a pretty good feel for the market that will support high-end gaming products, but if the cost-benefit ratio drops too low to make glossy RPGs profitable to produce and sell, if fewer people can buy them and in lesser quantities, then they'll give 'em the axe, just like they do with other popular but unprofitable toys and games.

QuoteSorry, frugal older gamers will never be the target for a mainstream commercial RPG. It's over. You're part of a small, amateur, micro-niche hobby.

Aw, now you're just being mean. :(

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;270946I think that you're right that Hasbro has a pretty good feel for the market that will support high-end gaming products, but if the cost-benefit ratio drops too low to make glossy RPGs profitable to produce and sell, if fewer people can buy them and in lesser quantities, then they'll give 'em the axe, just like they do with other popular but unprofitable toys and games.

Well, I think they'll stop producing a paper RPG altogether before they'll turn to a cheap and austere format.

Quote from: Haffrung;270952Well, I think they'll stop producing a paper RPG altogether before they'll turn to a cheap and austere format.

Agreed.  Which is why, perhaps, the big corporate model is ultimately the wrong model for what is really a hobby, not an industry.

Then again, how on earth do they manage to keep the boardgame market afloat?

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;270956Then again, how on earth do they manage to keep the boardgame market afloat?

Because a shit ton of people have Monopoly (or two - I think I have four different versions in the house that the kids play alot), Candyland, Life, Clue, and even Scrabble sitting on a shelf. There's a core there that continue to pass these on from generation to generation. The pool from which this process draws is far larger than anything RPG's could even dream of. So even though someone like me passes on D&D to my kids (so far, so good!), the number of us doing so is far smaller - and might not be enough to perpetuate the market.

Addendum: I just took a glance at my kids' lists - each have at least four boardgames with Operation (seemingly) the only overlap...

Funny - neither asked for anything D&D...hmmm...

Quote from: Ian Absentia;270956Agreed.  Which is why, perhaps, the big corporate model is ultimately the wrong model for what is really a hobby, not an industry.

Then again, how on earth do they manage to keep the boardgame market afloat?

!i!

Boardgames cost a ton.  £40 to £50 for the core game, then £20 to £30 per supplement.  They're luxury products, which is fine by me because I like good components in my boardgames, but that's how they manage it.  The price increase you can charge for including good components is I suspect much greater than the actual increased cost of those components.

RPGs, that logic doesn't really hold, though plenty of customers have tried to make it do so and I think Hasbro is trying to make it hold with D&D right now.

Quote from: James J Skach;270961Funny - neither asked for anything D&D...hmmm...

Are you sure you've got the right kids?  :D

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;270848Another catch: Folks are figuring out that MMOs provide far superior value for their cash than TRPGs due to the vastly increased time spent actually playing the game.

Of course, that only applies if MMOs also provide the kind of play experience you derive from TRPGs.  And frankly, if you can get the same kind of experience from WoW that you get from D&D, I'm even more glad that I don't game with you than I was before...

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;271013Of course, that only applies if MMOs also provide the kind of play experience you derive from TRPGs.  And frankly, if you can get the same kind of experience from WoW that you get from D&D, I'm even more glad that I don't game with you than I was before...

KoOS

That assumes that the premium standard for entertainment is interacting with other people face to face.  Just about every other form of entertainment is ultimately a solo activity, aside from many - but not all - types of games.  With 10mil or more WoW players alone, it is fairly evident that direct social interaction is not what people are necessarily looking for.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;270956Then again, how on earth do they manage to keep the boardgame market afloat?

Their business model relies on millions of people buying a game every two or three years, rather than thousands of people buying a half-dozen books a year. People will pay $60 for Axis and Allies if they know they're going to play it even a couple times a year for the next five years.

Furthermore, the target audience of young males who Hasbro and Fantasy Flight aim their war and fantasy boardgames at are a lot more impressed by all the cool bits in Descent or Axis and Allies than they are by a book - no matter how pretty the book is. They can see the value right on the table.

(http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic387620_md.jpg)

Quote from: Haffrung;271020Their business model relies on millions of people buying a game every two or three years, rather than thousands of people buying a half-dozen books a year. People will pay $60 for Axis and Allies if they know they're going to play it even a couple times a year for the next five years.

Furthermore, the target audience of young males who Hasbro and Fantasy Flight aim their war and fantasy boardgames at are a lot more impressed by all the cool bits in Descent or Axis and Allies than they are by a book - no matter how pretty the book is. They can see the value right on the table.

A non-rpg gamer friend has that Call of Cthulhu board-game, and it has about the same layout.  Three different tokens, several types and sizes of cards, tonnes of cardboard punchouts, lavish playing board.  Granted, it takes up the whole table when you lay it out like your pic, but it has lots of shinies.

As slick as the pieces are, I seriously doubt the whole set up for even games like that runs more than about $20 for the parts.  Getting the box or internal dividers made probably costs about $10 of that.

Mongoose Matt has clarified his statement: (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9682075&postcount=43) "To quantify; the comment was regarding 4e in the hobby trade. What we _don't_ know is how well it is doing in the book trade (one has to presume relatively well - relative to other RPGs in that arena)."

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;271026Mongoose Matt has clarified his statement: (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9682075&postcount=43) "To quantify; the comment was regarding 4e in the hobby trade. What we _don't_ know is how well it is doing in the book trade (one has to presume relatively well - relative to other RPGs in that arena)."

Seanchai

Do you understand what in God's name that actually means? Because I don't.

My feeling is that they are somewhat hamstrung by the fact that 3e was a pretty solid game that delivers a good play experience (in the "sweet spot", at least, it's a bit of beast at high levels) without too much tweaking or head scratching.

If you're happy with 3e, I can't see a reason to "trade up". The same could be said of 2e, obviously, but I think 3e is a much, much better game, and thus there are more significant reasons to not change than exist for 3e to 4e.

Ned

Quote from: noisms;271125Do you understand what in God's name that actually means? Because I don't.

It's selling lower than expected through normal rpg outlets but he doesn't know how well it's selling through book shops and online retailers like Amazon probably.


Vadrus

Quote from: Vadrus;271127It's selling lower than expected through normal rpg outlets but he doesn't know how well it's selling through book shops and online retailers like Amazon probably.


Vadrus

Anecdotally, the 4e PHB has been featured in both the Staff Picks and Top Sellers section of my local Chapters bookstore since its debut, and it has remained there through the Christmas season so far.

Quote from: Vadrus;271127It's selling lower than expected through normal rpg outlets but he doesn't know how well it's selling through book shops and online retailers like Amazon probably.

I wonder if that says more about the death of the FLGS than anything else.

Quote from: Vadrus;271127It's selling lower than expected through normal rpg outlets but he doesn't know how well it's selling through book shops and online retailers like Amazon probably.
 
 
Vadrus

4e books have ~3/4 of the top 20 Amazon spots in fantasy and roleplaying items.  So it's doing relatively well.  But it's hard to tell how well 4e is doing at bookstores relative to how well 3e did.
 
Sprange probably has contacts with game distributors but not book distributors.

For what it's worth, here is Chris Pramas's take on the situation (http://www.chrispramas.com/2008/12/rpg-musings.html). Some of the more interesting parts:

QuoteThe only commentary I have taken seriously has come from the two halves of the distribution system: the game trade and the book trade. In separate conversations, an executive in the game trade and the former RPG buyer for a major chain of bookstores both told me the same thing: 4E sold in well but follow-up sales were slow. One of them told me that 4E supplements were selling at the same level as 3E supplements at the beginning of this year (i.e. 8 years into 3E's lifecycle).

QuoteWhat is unambiguous to my mind is that the third party market for 4E material is a shadow of its former self. By early 2001 you had publishers selling huge amounts of d20 product and more companies jumping into the fray every week. This time there is a trickle of product and no one is seeing the gangbuster sales of 3E's heyday as far as I can tell. The GSL revision has yet to appear and the d20 diaspora continues to splinter. If WotC was serious about wanting the support of third party publishers, the GSL has been a strategic failure to date. If the goal was to cull the third party market though, mission accomplished.

Not that it matters, really, but Amazon did not have its current presence in 2001. Why would anyone who knows the price difference between say the three core books at the store and the gift set available online buy it at the store? I've bought three games in a real store in the last five years, one was a last minute gift, the other was something I didn't want to wait for, and the last was $10.00. I've bought (if you just count books) well over twice that much stuff online.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;271126My feeling is that they are somewhat hamstrung by the fact that 3e was a pretty solid game that delivers a good play experience (in the "sweet spot", at least, it's a bit of beast at high levels) without too much tweaking or head scratching.

If you're happy with 3e, I can't see a reason to "trade up". The same could be said of 2e, obviously, but I think 3e is a much, much better game, and thus there are more significant reasons to not change than exist for 3e to 4e.

Ned

That makes sense, my wholly unscientific impression is that more people were happy with 3e than were with 2e.

Quote from: noisms;271135I wonder if that says more about the death of the FLGS than anything else.

It might also say more about the discounting factor of online merchants.  There have been numerous threads over in BGG about the same thing happening to boardgames and how it's undercutting the FLGS, but when a 4E supplement pushing barely over 200 pages has a list price of $30, that doesn't exactly help the FLGS.  One could make the arguement that if companies want more sales, they should find ways to lower the list prices.  $70 for a Eurogame like Agricola or $90 for the 4E core books seem a steep intro point for a lot of people to handle.

--Mike L.

Online silliness NEVER helps a brick & mortar FLGS.


- Ed C.

Quote from: noisms;271135I wonder if that says more about the death of the FLGS than anything else.

Could be. In terms of price, my FLGS can't even compare to Borders when I have a coupon in hand. Forget about competing with Amazon, it's Z Stores, eBay, etc.

(Of course, I still make weekly visits to my FLGS as they have the best selection of RPG and related materials...)

Seanchai

Quote from: flyerfan1991;271204It might also say more about the discounting factor of online merchants.  There have been numerous threads over in BGG about the same thing happening to boardgames and how it's undercutting the FLGS, but when a 4E supplement pushing barely over 200 pages has a list price of $30, that doesn't exactly help the FLGS.  One could make the arguement that if companies want more sales, they should find ways to lower the list prices.  $70 for a Eurogame like Agricola or $90 for the 4E core books seem a steep intro point for a lot of people to handle.

--Mike L.

$104.00 for the 4e books today at Hastings in Albuquerque. $66.12 on amazon- and you can get it shipped for free.
@Ed, it's not so much that folks are being cheap or greedy when they buy online, though, for me it's the difference between getting a game and not getting a game. Period.

I've bought all my D&D books through Barnes and Noble.  By buying online, I get a percent off just for ordering online + the percent I get for being a member.    Of course, I always wait until I get a coupon (because they email me one every few weeks), so I get even more off.  And if you pre-order, you get even more off.

It just doesn't make sense to buy full-price in a store if you can get it online for nearly 50% off.  I might buy other RPG stuff in a FLGS, but never a D&D book.  It's too easy, and far cheaper, just to buy online.

Quote from: jgants;271227It just doesn't make sense to buy full-price in a store if you can get it online for nearly 50% off. I might buy other RPG stuff in a FLGS, but never a D&D book. It's too easy, and far cheaper, just to buy online.

It gets to a point where you have to ask yourself how much more you're willing to pay to support a store.  It's easy to shrug off a 10% discount but not a 50% discount.

I am both cheap and greedy.  If I can find a product at a drastically reduced price, I will buy it at that reduced price.  The LGSs in my area don't really offer much in the way of added value for me to ignore the price reduction.  Not to mention the fact that their service tends to suck, the employees have little knowledge of their stock or smug douchey 'tudes (or both), and they're not keen on cleanliness (either the store or their employees).

Since we're talking about purchase habits now, I usually wait until the product has been out for three to five years, then pick up a pristine, barely-used copy from the local Half Price Books.  I'm that cheap, and I like to wait and see if people are playing it a couple of years down the road.  I waited about seven years before taking the plunge into 3e.

I will buy usually only buy game books new and from the FLGS if I'm very familiar with the author and really want to support both him and the new product line, and if I really want to support either Aron or Stacey.  Generally it takes something really special to get me to buy a book new, and then I usually want to give my money to someone I know personally.

!i!

Quote from: Aos;271163Not that it matters, really, but Amazon did not have its current presence in 2001. Why would anyone who knows the price difference between say the three core books at the store and the gift set available online buy it at the store? I've bought three games in a real store in the last five years, one was a last minute gift, the other was something I didn't want to wait for, and the last was $10.00. I've bought (if you just count books) well over twice that much stuff online.

And that, obviously, is the problem with Mongoose's take on 4e's sales.

First and foremost, where are they getting their information? As I understand it, there are some problems with the data that comes from sources like Comics & Games Retailer Magazine as it's all self-reported. In my experiences, many FLGSes are run like many RPG companies: the owners have a lot of heart, but not necessarily a lot of business acumen. Who knows if their numbers are accurate.

Mongoose could be getting the numbers from the distributor. I would imagine those numbers are pretty accurate. But would one actually have to provide one - which I would consider unprofessional. Moreover, would Mongoose be able to get the numbers from all the distributors or just one?

That aside, I find Mongoose's statements to be somewhat disingenuous. The person making them has to know that the book trade is huge for D&D. Of course sales look like they're down when you ignore 3/4s of them. To misinform the public about another competitor's sales...

Seanchai

Quote from: Nicephorus;271229It gets to a point where you have to ask yourself how much more you're willing to pay to support a store.  It's easy to shrug off a 10% discount but not a 50% discount.

Exactly. I get 90% of my stuff from my FLGS, but sometimes, Amazon's deals are just too good to pass up.

Seanchai

Quote from: Aos;271225$104.00 for the 4e books today at Hastings in Albuquerque. $66.12 on amazon- and you can get it shipped for free.
@Ed, it's not so much that folks are being cheap or greedy when they buy online, though, for me it's the difference between getting a game and not getting a game. Period.

Then that almost begs the question as to whether the publishers in general (not simply WotC or other RPG publishers) are factoring in the Amazon and online discounts when they put down a list price.  I sincerely doubt that Amazon is selling 4e (for example) as a loss leader, so I presume it's being sold at a small percentage over what Amazon paid for the book.  If the publishers were more honest in their list pricing and put it more in line with what the base cost is, the great advantage of online purchases would disappear.

--Mike L.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;271232I usually wait until the product has been out for three to five years, then pick up a pristine, barely-used copy from the local Half Price Books.

Half Price Books is actually my main source of print rpgs.  I don't buy a new print version of something unless I'm certain I'm going to play that game and not just mine the book.

Mike L.--

How so? It would really just amount to forcing B&M stores to take a much lower discount--yes, customers would be indifferent to Amazon vs. local purchase, but the profit per book to B&M retailers would be so low that they wouldn't cover their overhead.

The only way publishers could really help the B&M stores would be to either refuse to sell through Amazon, or to give Amazon a lower discount, which would force Amazon to raise their prices. Or they could try to prevent Amazon from lowering their prices (there's some legal precedent for this).

The thing is that none of these options are in the short-term interest of publishers.

Quote from: Nicephorus;271245Half Price Books is actually my main source of print rpgs.  I don't buy a new print version of something unless I'm certain I'm going to play that game and not just mine the book.

My position exactly.  And I was exaggerating a bit when I stated that I wait three to five years -- sometimes a new book is on the resale shelf inside of a couple of months to a year.  Never underestimate the disappointment of the impulse game buyer.

!i!

This is what I do, too. Although I mainly use eBay; HPB is hit-or-miss on the stuff I'm interested in, and my local HPB recently savagely culled their RPG section, making me think they won't be getting much new stock.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;271253Mike L.--

How so? It would really just amount to forcing B&M stores to take a much lower discount--yes, customers would be indifferent to Amazon vs. local purchase, but the profit per book to B&M retailers would be so low that they wouldn't cover their overhead.

The only way publishers could really help the B&M stores would be to either refuse to sell through Amazon, or to give Amazon a lower discount, which would force Amazon to raise their prices. Or they could try to prevent Amazon from lowering their prices (there's some legal precedent for this).

The thing is that none of these options are in the short-term interest of publishers.

My thinking is that a 10-15% difference between a B&M vs. Amazon isn't probably big enough a difference to make people shun B&M for Amazon.  Personally speaking, there's a certain threshold for a discount before I'll consider an online retailer, especially if I need an item within a set period of time.  A 10-15% difference in cost isn't so bad on a couple of books (especially when that cost differential is lessened due to shipping), but when that cost difference starts getting to 20-40%, well....

If either a publisher lowers the MSRP (none as of yet) or sets an allowable maximum discount (Mayfair has already done that with their boardgames), then the FLGS has a chance to compete with the deep discounters.  The FLGS can easily surpass the deep discounters by focusing on the face to face customer contact and by providing services that a deep discounter can't provide, but if the price gap is too great people will use the FLGS for research and then go buy online.

Sure, that means that the FLGS won't have as much to pocket per sale, but having some sales vs. no sales is what I'm thinking of.

--Mike L.

Also, from this thread (http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5114):

"I don't usually discuss business on these forums, but I will answer enough to say, "4E is doing well for us." 4E is definitely smaller than the launch of 3.0 so many years ago, and people have a valid point in saying it's a smaller "edition launch" overall. But compared to the trends of the last couple years, 4E has definitely caused a significant increase in sales.

In answer to the specific callout that you quoted, "I haven't heard of any 4e third-party products selling in significant numbers", there was a period in the early days of 3.0 where ANYTHING with the d20 logo could sell great numbers. That effect has not been repeated. And many distributors and retailers who were burned by that period are being even more strict with the (limited) pool of GSL goods available. There may be some third party publishers who hoped that the GSL would be their trampoline into the sales stratosphere... but this time around it appears to require quality product, good partnerships, effective marketing, and all the other nuts-and-bolts business basics, GSL or no GSL."

Seanchai

Also, from this thread (http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5114):

"I don't usually discuss business on these forums, but I will answer enough to say, "4E is doing well for us." 4E is definitely smaller than the launch of 3.0 so many years ago, and people have a valid point in saying it's a smaller "edition launch" overall. But compared to the trends of the last couple years, 4E has definitely caused a significant increase in sales.

In answer to the specific callout that you quoted, "I haven't heard of any 4e third-party products selling in significant numbers", there was a period in the early days of 3.0 where ANYTHING with the d20 logo could sell great numbers. That effect has not been repeated. And many distributors and retailers who were burned by that period are being even more strict with the (limited) pool of GSL goods available. There may be some third party publishers who hoped that the GSL would be their trampoline into the sales stratosphere... but this time around it appears to require quality product, good partnerships, effective marketing, and all the other nuts-and-bolts business basics, GSL or no GSL."

Seanchai

Quote from: Aos;271225$104.00 for the 4e books today at Hastings in Albuquerque. $66.12 on amazon- and you can get it shipped for free.
@Ed, it's not so much that folks are being cheap or greedy when they buy online, though, for me it's the difference between getting a game and not getting a game. Period.

If one can save $40 bucks, it isn't being "cheap" or being "greedy" is simply being smart with one's money.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;271253Mike L.--



The thing is that none of these options are in the short-term interest of publishers.

How are they tangibly beneficial in the long term, or any term, really?

Quote from: Aos;271291How are they tangibly beneficial in the long term, or any term, really?

Game stores might help with building a customer base and with keeping people in the hobby.  When kids come in to buy more Pokagon cards, the owner can show them other stuff they might like - like the drug dealer model.  The value of going in to bullshit with employees and other buyers might help keep people interested and get them connected with other players so they buy more stuff.
 
How well this works is hard to measure and it is going to be spread well beyond a particular item.  Stores also vary tremendously how well they function at this sort of stuff.

No offense, but your answer is exactly why i inserted the word "tangibly" into my question. I understand the theory behind all that stuff, I just don't think it is really very solid, and certainly not something to stake your profits on- especially at the risk of pissing off any number of existing customers by denying the an opportunity to buy at a discount.

The big selling point about discount online purchases is, well, the discount.  If you know what you want, that's great.  If you don't know what you want, you either go online to a site (like BGG or this one) or you actually interact FTF with someone by either playing a game, talking with someone (a friend), or going to an FLGS to look around and speak with people there.

Admittedly, there are numerous examples of FLGS' that are terrible at customer service, but the FLGS could potentially expose a lot of people to the hobby and put the hobby in a good light.  The last time I bought something at an FLGS (Ed's store, actually) one of the employees (not Ed, btw) was in a deep discussion with a family about RPGs:  how they work, their appeal, the various RPGs available, what you need to play with, and all sorts of other discussion points.  It was respectfully done without snide or snarky comments or geeky in-jokes.  While I left before the employee closed the sale, the way the interaction was conducted demonstrated to me the best aspect of an FLGS at work.  If members of that family get involved in RPGs, they'll not only have that FLGS to thank for it, but the FLGS will have ensured the loyalty of potentially several customers.  It's hard to imagine that sort of interaction happening at any of the online deep discounters because that's not their strong suit.

--Mike L.

Quote from: Aos;271291How are they tangibly beneficial in the long term, or any term, really?

If a publisher only sells through B&M stores, then in the short term the price of the product to the consumer is X, of which maybe .6x goes to the publisher and the remainder to the B&M store.

If the publisher sells through Amazon, the price to the consumer is maybe .65X, of which .6x goes to the publisher, and the remainder to Amazon. Amazon is happy to take a lower per-unit portion of the revenue because their per-unit costs are lower due to low overhead and high volume.

Assuming more people will buy the product if they can get it at a lower price, the portion of the audience who can get it through Amazon (meaning they have the skills and disposition to do so) will buy more copies than they would if they couldn't get it through Amazon.

Ergo overall sales are higher, but fewer sales go to the B&M stores than would be the case if Amazon wasn't available.*

Since the publisher makes the same amount on a sale via Amazon as they do via the B&M store, they're better off in the short term.

However, in the long term, the publisher may be worse off because the B&M stores are providing more than just distribution: they're also advertising by making it easy for people to view and handle merchandise before buying it.

*ON THE OTHER HAND, because of the network effect of RPGs, B&M stores may benefit from Amazon. In other words, it's conceivable that the increased ubiquity of RPG-playing, due to the availability of cheap games through Amazon, effectively increases the value of RPGs to the end-user. Then you would get a "rising tide lifts all boats" effect. Put simply, if Johnny gets D&D through Amazon, then Johnny's friends will want to play the game, too, and they might buy it from a B&M. Whereas if Johnny had never gotten the game because it was too expensive compared to Halo XVIII, his friends wouldn't have even heard of it.

I remain unconvinced. These are all intangibles. Possibilities. Maybes. They are nothing that can be planned for, and are as likely as not, in any given case, a poor investment.  Making acts of faith is the opposite of a sound business pan. Furthermore, according to what's been said upthread 4e isn't doing well in the LGs  Why would they want to invest in a losing game? The internet and the sales these publishers make on it are real not vague possiblities.  
I returned to RPGS roughly three years ago after a long hiatus. I knew I'd like to try something new. I did all my research online. I was able to read tons of reviews on many different games.  All the games I bought as a result were not available at the game store near my house- none. They offered to order them, but under their plan I would have to wait longer and pay more than ordering direct from Amazon. Thanks, but no thanks. Why would I want to pay more for less? I contend that anyone who has access to the intenret has access to an immense resource in this regard, and most people know it. After all, this isn't 1996.

And I see that I got Aos's question sort of backward, but I probably answered as well as I could anyway.

Yes, the argument for helping B&Ms, from the producer's point of view, depends on intangibles like the unpaid promotion and customer relations work that B&Ms do.

What games stores offer- well, in my opinion, the ONLY thing they really offer- is providing a public place to meet, hold events, and play. If a game store doesn't do that, I suspect they won't be around for long.

I go to my local store (Games & Stuff in Glen Burnie, MD) weekly because it's a convenient central public location with a huge room upstairs that we have been welcomed to use for events that have ranged in size from 4 players to 75+. I've met most of the 4e players I know right there at the store, where I have either been running a game or playing in one since the release.

I fully admit to being a cheap bastard who previously got most of his books via Amazon (or more often than not, free for DMing at RPGA events), but lately I actually buy them from the local place just because they have been cool there.

Quote from: Seanchai;270940Where is this mythical "younger gaming crowd"? Or, maybe, a better question is: What do you consider to be a young gamer? Because I have yet to encounter or play with any.

Seanchai

Hi. 21. Started in high school around the 3e/3.5 transition. There was a big crowd. I DM now and again. Still a pretty big crowd where I live now. Youngest in my most recent group was 16.

I spent high school in Delaware during the peak of the 3.5 thing... "completes" "races of" and environment books galore, plus eberron. Everyone was deep into it. Both players and DMs had ridiculous book collections, folks minmaxed, and uber-geeky stat jokes ensued concerning how to play as a sandwich or create vorpal pillows or nuke a city with a divination spell. Oh, and everyone who played DMed at least a little. I was a little of an exception, having fewer books and never really DMing. We've scattered to the four winds, but most of us run games wherever we are... or if we can't in person we run games online.

Here in Atlanta, everybody plays too, but it's more casual I guess. Most people only have only the player's handbook and maybe a couple of others. There are three or four gamers my age who own all the books and run all the games for the high school crowd. A few others my age who went out of state and are still running.

All that said, conversion to 4e has been the exception and not the rule for those I've known. Veterans from the DE crowd don't like the idea of invalidating their massive collections. And somehow it just hasn't caught on here either... of course it may have to do with the DMs preferring a game they already know how to run and everybody else playing whatever we run.

Just my experience though, and I've seen some counter-indications. I've actually seen folks on the subway toting 4e books.

As for production values... I've never met anyone that cared much how the books looked. Amateurish looking stuff might bother me but I don't know that production values is what I'm after. I loved the black and white illos in the old 3e paperback splats myself.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;271320....................  The last time I bought something at an FLGS (Ed's store, actually) one of the employees (not Ed, btw) was in a deep discussion with a family about RPGs:  how they work, their appeal, the various RPGs available, what you need to play with, and all sorts of other discussion points.  It was respectfully done without snide or snarky comments or geeky in-jokes.  While I left before the employee closed the sale, the way the interaction was conducted demonstrated to me the best aspect of an FLGS at work.  If members of that family get involved in RPGs, they'll not only have that FLGS to thank for it, but the FLGS will have ensured the loyalty of potentially several customers.  It's hard to imagine that sort of interaction happening at any of the online deep discounters because that's not their strong suit.

--Mike L.

That day it might not have been me or my shift - but I have had similiar discussions with other browsers/customers at the store....if I dfescribed all of them that might become another version of a 'Tales From The Gamestore' thead.

Truthfully, each of us at the store has a slightly different syle , but the scene Mike describes could have been any of the 4 of us that work there.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Aos;271225@Ed, it's not so much that folks are being cheap or greedy when they buy online, though, for me it's the difference between getting a game and not getting a game. Period.

I didn't see this part til someone else quoted it - probably because I was working at the store since my last post on here.  (And my new possibly significant other has been taking up my time)

The big difference OUR store has vs. an online source to buy games is that we have tables in the store where people can PLAY the games or see them being played. Also , as Mike pinted out , there are people at the store that can tell the customers the facts and fiction about various RPGs.


- Ed C.

I just placed my wish list with mom-in-law.  Four 4ed supps, all 1/2 price with free shipping through Amazon, all for slightly less than 100 bucks.  Adventurers Vault, Martial Power, Draconomicon, and Manual of the Planes.  Thats good value right there.  Any idea how much those books would run in a game store in Canadian bucks?  They were 21 bucks a pop (28 for Draco)
FLGS just can't compete with Amazon.  Its sad, but man is it true.  Especially where I am living off the Halifax peninsula, and all the game stores are on the downtown peninsula, and parking down there around christmas is ridiculously hard.  I'd love to give Strange Adventures or Big Dick's Monster Comic Lounge my money (thats not its official name - the city wouldn't let him, but dammit, its a great name), but its too much of a hassle to get down, and I can get more bang for my buck online if I'm not impatient to get it.

Koltar, I tried to give your store here some love on black friday because they were running a 30% off sale, but they had absolutely no Mongoose Trav stuff in stock, so no sale.  And why the hell don't they ever get enough copies of KoDT that I can get one?  These are the kinds of reasons beyond price that is driving me to shopping only online.

Quote from: beejazz;271578I spent high school in Delaware during the peak of the 3.5 thing...

Cool.

But what about 4e? The claim is that 4e was marketed to younger gamers. We know a huge number of 4e rulebooks were sold. If younger gamers did pick them up instead of older gamers, then we should see a huge influx of younger gamers.

Your story is interesting, but it's just one response...in a number of days.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;272419Cool.

But what about 4e? The claim is that 4e was marketed to younger gamers. We know a huge number of 4e rulebooks were sold. If younger gamers did pick them up instead of older gamers, then we should see a huge influx of younger gamers.

Your story is interesting, but it's just one response...in a number of days.

Seanchai

I suppose one could take a 4e PHB, tie it to a string, go to the mall, and see if anyone takes the bait...

Quote from: jgants;272423I suppose one could take a 4e PHB, tie it to a string, go to the mall, and see if anyone takes the bait...

Can I cheat by bundling it with a copy of Twilight?

Seanchai

Quote from: Ian Absentia;270731Isn't that the sort of complaint that's made every decade or so, though?  The core market is lost to another medium and the industry limps along by selling and re-selling to the same old hobbyist diehards.  Sooner or later, someone (maybe WotC) will come out with a gaming product that will reinvigorate the hobby, probably coinciding with an upturn in the general worldwide economic forecast, and a new standard will be set for sales numbers.  4e just wasn't the blockbuster it was hoped to be, for a variety of factors.

!i!

Agreed. Does anyone remember what gaming life was like before White Wolf? What the industry needs is another company to come in catch a niche genre and brilliantly market a snappy new game system.

I doubt very seriously it will be WOTC. BUT Hasbro may very well buy them!

Quote from: Seanchai;272419Cool.

But what about 4e? The claim is that 4e was marketed to younger gamers. We know a huge number of 4e rulebooks were sold. If younger gamers did pick them up instead of older gamers, then we should see a huge influx of younger gamers.

Your story is interesting, but it's just one response...in a number of days.

Seanchai

As I said, younger gamers in my area play what I and a few other GMs run. Which means 3.5 hereabouts. It reflects neither poorly nor well on 4e's direct appeal to younger gamers. The only trend I've noticed is that the community spreads starting with a few veterans. In DE it was another high schooler who had played 2E in middle school. Here it's been a few GMs just entering college who play with old friends from high school (students tend to stay in state here thanks to the hope scholarship = free college mentailty). The only thing I read from that is that 3.0 nabbed 2E fans where 4e failed to nab the 3.5ers. It could be just local or I could just be wrong. It is strictly anecdotal evidence, for all that's worth.

Quote from: Koltar;271596The big difference OUR store has vs. an online source to buy games is that we have tables in the store where people can PLAY the games or see them being played. Also , as Mike pinted out , there are people at the store that can tell the customers the facts and fiction about various RPGs.


- Ed C.

Can you really? I don't wish to attack you, but if I come into the store and say "hey, I need some fiends for my werewolf game -something animistic would be great, you know like the red angel or bullhammer from book of spirits- should I buy predators or antagonists?" could you answer on the spot? Or "my girlfriend loves Qin to bits. I'd like to get her something. She has been learning the frenchmen's language for a decade now. Can she read the french supplements or should I wait for the english ones? And what is good?".

You can probably not. RPGs are a highly specialized hobby and no employee could adequately inform himself about everything that is going on. I get more accurate information online and can even order at the same time for a discount.
Plus I think most gaming groups play at home and not at stores.

Quote from: Koltar;271596I didn't see this part til someone else quoted it - probably because I was working at the store since my last post on here.  (And my new possibly significant other has been taking up my time)

The big difference OUR store has vs. an online source to buy games is that we have tables in the store where people can PLAY the games or see them being played. Also , as Mike pinted out , there are people at the store that can tell the customers the facts and fiction about various RPGs.


- Ed C.

Unless you are trying to run a tourney or campaign in miniatures or card games there is no reason to play at a store.

Other shoppers/loiterers are a nuisance to the game flow. I dont want someone coming over to watch me play the new DnD 4th ed. Thanks anyway.

The chairs are uncomfortable. Most game stores dont have budget for nice chairs.

Food is hard to come by. So getting to perfect snacks for your game group is out. If the guy running the store lets you bring in that greasy pizza and smear it all over his products than he is a bit the fool.

Its overly noisy. Can't set a mood of dark dank dungeon with Magic wienies screaming about a crappy draw.

And lets face it. Gamers are not the cleanest group of people as a whole. So some times the smell gets bit overwhelming. Though the stink can help you capture the "DANK" part quite nicely.

And like another guy mentioned just cause you hang out/work at the game store does not make you an expert on all games. Though many a store worker/loiterer tries to play that off to the detriment of would be customer's experience.

So in summation, its cheaper to buy your stuff online, its no fun to play at the store, and its easier to get people to play WOW than to play 4th ed. These things combined lead me to believe that the local game store is a dying breed.

My two scents:
Confrontation & Diplomacy

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Unless you are trying to run a tourney or campaign in miniatures or card games there is no reason to play at a store.

We would run exclusive GMs. I had about 60 players over a weeks time in my WoD games and more than that when I switched to DND. I had other GMs that would put 10 people in there games and have waiting lists. There are other reasons like not wanting to game in your mom's house, wanting to be able to grab a supplement off the shelf, buy it and use it right out the gate and more. I always tried, for my stores, to make it a draw to play with an excellent GM.

On the downside you also get those who cannot get into other games. Those we did a pretty good job of re-training their play. I had several guys who appreciated it and several who resented it. Such is the nature of the game.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Other shoppers/loiterers are a nuisance to the game flow. I dont want someone coming over to watch me play the new DnD 4th ed. Thanks anyway.

We had two sparate game rooms in our stores, without products. One used (generally) for minis and the other for RPGs. We had a third table at the front of the store where away from any product but visible to gawkers.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880The chairs are uncomfortable. Most game stores dont have budget for nice chairs.

Subjective but we had folks who said our chairs were more comfortable than the ones they normally gamed in. We had detractors as well. Again, tough one here since it is pretty subjective.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Food is hard to come by. So getting to perfect snacks for your game group is out. If the guy running the store lets you bring in that greasy pizza and smear it all over his products than he is a bit the fool.

Since we had a separate gaming area, we allowed some food. However, we insisted you wash your hands before handling product. We also supplied snacks and soda for purchase (actually healthy portion of our revenue).

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Its overly noisy. Can't set a mood of dark dank dungeon with Magic wienies screaming about a crappy draw.

Again, separates rooms made this very easy. I often ran my WoD games by candlelight.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880And lets face it. Gamers are not the cleanest group of people as a whole. So some times the smell gets bit overwhelming. Though the stink can help you capture the "DANK" part quite nicely.

I had, more than once, kicked people out of my store with the words "You stink. Comback after you have showered." My staff had done likewise. People attending my games were aware, amongst rules like no weapons, there was a commandment to come showered and non-stinky. After about the first six months we did not have a problem.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880And like another guy mentioned just cause you hang out/work at the game store does not make you an expert on all games. Though many a store worker/loiterer tries to play that off to the detriment of would be customer's experience.

My stores were around before the internet was real big. Obviously things have changed but here we really did play every game that came in, would call manufacturers, get demo teams in, have members of the staff become subject experts then teach other members, talk with distributors and our customers as well and become as knowledgeable about games as possible. But yes, you are correct, when the manufacturer's website, countless reviews and literally thousands of products are available it is difficult to compete with that knowledge base. A good retailer, and the way me and my staff handled it, was not be be arrogant about it but to engage the customer who knew about the product. Learn from them, ask them if they had played, where they had heard of it and generally try to engage them in talking about the hobby.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880So in summation, its cheaper to buy your stuff online, its no fun to play at the store, and its easier to get people to play WOW than to play 4th ed. These things combined lead me to believe that the local game store is a dying breed.

My two scents:
Confrontation & Diplomacy

Logic is a dangerous thing. It can lead you to all manner of conclusions that are not true. I would not say that FLGS are dying but that they are evolving (at least the good ones). The days of a singular "RPG Shoppe" dies in the 90s. It was about the third "end of the FLGS" I had lived through. Card Games were on the rise and everyone said how Card Shops were killing the FLGS. In truth, the FLGS were becoming card shops as well as flags. Now, what is coming next? I don;t know but my guess from dealing with Retailers is something a bit more general, more entertainment oriented.

Of course, the above is just my opinion. I am a big dick after all. ;)

Bill

That's quite a thread of its own here.

Sure playing in a store bears many problems. OTH it's a conveniant way to meet new players and I'd say a rather safe way to get to know them. One could be cautious about inviting strangers to the table at home. So it could be used as a kind of airlock recruitment zone.

I wish a nearby flgs had a table.  The nearest store closed this year - I think he was just tired of doing it.  But he never had game space and the one in the mall doesn't either.
 
Not everyone has a clean, largely empty room big enough for 6-8 people.  The problem with my place is the open layout - there are no doors separating the livingroom and the diningroom, so a game would be highly distracting to my wife and kids.  It would limit games to stopping by 8 so the kids can get to bed.
 
There are also people who are fine to game with but you might not want to invite them into your home.

I've never heard of a UK game store where one could actually play in the store, I won't say it's never happened but if it has it's definitely unusual.

I suspect retail rents must be cheaper in the US, but then there is a lot more there there.

Anyway, that benefit doesn't exist for us, the main benefits of the FLGS are the ability (sometimes) to browse and the ability to get stuff now rather than waiting for postage.

Those aren't really killer apps.

Quote from: Balbinus;272916I've never heard of a UK game store where one could actually play in the store, I won't say it's never happened but if it has it's definitely unusual.

I suspect retail rents must be cheaper in the US, but then there is a lot more there there.

It varies so much as to make it impossible to generally say. The cost of a space in the same town in a mall is going to be different (generally higher but again, depends on the mall) from space in a strip mall, from a free standing store. We had about 1600 sq ft in Illinois, small town, for about $450 in the mid 90s. Free standing building, older and a bit run down. It had its own bathroom, two separate rooms and a raised area that split the store front to back. Decent enough location but not at the new mall that went in (or even near it) but on a major road. The northern store was in a college town, MI, about 800 sq ft, in an "antique mall" for about $600. This was one space, public bathrooms, cafe on the same level, one room but easily divided. Again, in 1995 dollars. Don't know if that helps but I thought you might find it interesting. Each store grossed about 85K (southern slightly less, northern slightly more).

Bill

Sounds like HinterWelt had the uber-gamestore. Well your response does make me question your often using past tense. Is this all mighty mecca gamestore still in existence?

Even so, that does nothing to change that fact that of the two dozen shops I have been in during my travels more often than not they fit my description less yours. One of my very best friends even opened his own gamestore with high and mighty ideals of what it would be like. In the end it still degraded down to what I described.

I think the real problem is hobbyists build hobby stores. They go after the business in order to facilitate their own interests. They make poor decisions that cause their own failures and thus weaken the market.

If every store was a Utopia for game geeks than market share would be larger. Then more people would be playing games, more games would get made, and you would do more business.

This would make me very happy.

I think together we have done a great service. Together we have illustrated the almighty do's and don'ts of a game store. Maybe someone will have read our little tit for tat conversation and it will have imparted in them a better strategy for business success.

Till our conversational paths cross again.

I.M. The all knowing Jackass

Quote from: Nicephorus;272898I wish a nearby flgs had a table.  The nearest store closed this year - I think he was just tired of doing it.  But he never had game space and the one in the mall doesn't either.
 
Not everyone has a clean, largely empty room big enough for 6-8 people.  The problem with my place is the open layout - there are no doors separating the livingroom and the diningroom, so a game would be highly distracting to my wife and kids.  It would limit games to stopping by 8 so the kids can get to bed.
 
There are also people who are fine to game with but you might not want to invite them into your home.

Sadly you are right.

To accommodate such an environment I have purposely purchased the products needed. (say that three times fast) For my dining room, which is the site of much gaming, I have filled seating with high backed office chairs instead of typical hard wooden types. My table is small for normal use but expands to 4x8 for game time. My floorplan is ok but the diningroom is very big.

Oh and mom comes by to pick up my youngster on game night.

Plan ahead and sacrifice for your game room.

Peace and Elbow Grease

Quote from: Balbinus;272916Anyway, that benefit doesn't exist for us, the main benefits of the FLGS are the ability (sometimes) to browse and the ability to get stuff now rather than waiting for postage.

Those aren't really killer apps.

A data point from my area.

The three major game stores in the Berkeley/Oakland area all have gaming space; in one of them the space is kind of a "dungeon" and I wouldn't want to spend much time there. The other two combine ample tables (in one case, even an excellent assortment of 3D terrain that I doubt many people would have room for in their homes) and in-store snacks. So they try to be "hangouts", with some success.

This is in an area with pretty high commercial rents, but also it would seem a pretty high density of gamers, so that might balance out.

I'd say that, as "hangouts", these stores probably offer a few benefits compared to meeting in someone's home, at least in some cases. One is that they're centrally-located (but parking isn't so great; then again, they're near public transportation). Another frankly is that they offer a public space so that you can game with people you don't know very well instead of inviting them into your home immediately. This is more of a concern for people with families, probably. I know one friend (boardgamer) has this explicitly worked out: nobody gets invited to his house to game unless he's already interacted with them on the outside.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;272999A data point from my area.

I know one friend (boardgamer) has this explicitly worked out: nobody gets invited to his house to game unless he's already interacted with them on the outside.

Even with my tirade I still do this as well. I meet away from my home first and then move to the crib.

Peace Love and Tater Tots

Boy has this thread drifted....

 Just had another game session yesterday of that D&D group where I'm acyually 'just a player' and my character is a Dragonborn. While we were playing and in the middle of an encounter - a player had his 20 sider roll really bad on him twice in a row. The player acroos the table from him said : "Thats terrible! Go buy some new dice to replace those  right now!"
Now she was kidding when she said - but since we were playing in a game store, he DID get up from the table when therte was a pause a buy a new 7 piece set of chessex dice.

 Crystal asked :"Why did he get up ?"
US/other players: "You told him to buy new dice..."

At lkeast it was in the store I work at and it was my day off yesterday - so I could 'relax' a bit in my store and just play.

As to the original question of the thread?

 Maybe, just maybe the release of 4th edition of Dungeons & Dragons had the bad luck to be published right when the economy was starting to take its downturn.  The new version was released this past June, the economy and consumers started to get 'nervous' around late August or Early September. It could be its not the game itself  - but the economic environment that it was released into.


- Ed C.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;273011Even with my tirade I still do this as well. I meet away from my home first and then move to the crib.

Peace Love and Tater Tots

Absolutely.  This has been SOP for every other gamer I've met, as well.  There's some scary folks out there (it isn't because they're geeks, there's just a lot of creepy people out there in general, and some of them happen to be geeks).

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987Sounds like HinterWelt had the uber-gamestore. Well your response does make me question your often using past tense. Is this all mighty mecca gamestore still in existence?

I sold it. One of the new owners continued it (the northern store) and the other took about 4 years to run it into the ground. It would not characterize it as an uber store although I am not sure exactly what that means. They were pretty representative of the stores of the time.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987Even so, that does nothing to change that fact that of the two dozen shops I have been in during my travels more often than not they fit my description less yours. One of my very best friends even opened his own gamestore with high and mighty ideals of what it would be like. In the end it still degraded down to what I described.

Sorry, I was not trying to say your account was not valid. I was just providing mine as a counter point.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987I think the real problem is hobbyists build hobby stores. They go after the business in order to facilitate their own interests. They make poor decisions that cause their own failures and thus weaken the market.

There are also great game stores that are run by business men. Some examples include Games Plus in IL, The Source in MN and the Lone Star chain in TX. Again, not saying your description does not fit, just offering a counter point.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987If every store was a Utopia for game geeks than market share would be larger. Then more people would be playing games, more games would get made, and you would do more business.

I heartily agree. I talk with retailer almost daily from all over the country. Some who have been in business for 30 years and others who are brand new. I am a big proponent of game space (was when i had my stores and am now). Many store owners do not agree and they have a point. Some of them you have made (undesirability of the space) some are more to the point, it is space that does not generate revenue. In the end, it is their choice but I believe that game space does pay for itself. It is a very arguable point.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987This would make me very happy.

I think together we have done a great service. Together we have illustrated the almighty do's and don'ts of a game store. Maybe someone will have read our little tit for tat conversation and it will have imparted in them a better strategy for business success.

Till our conversational paths cross again.

I.M. The all knowing Jackass

You never know. I would hope that it demonstrates the extremes of the types of stores. That may of gotten lost in my post but I will fully admit here. There are good and bad stores. Interestingly, the good stores seem to cluster. When you have a single store serving a community, not always but it has been my experience, they tend to be the "A group of gamers got together and wanted a place to game" kind of store...oh, and good discounts. That usually does not work out well and results in the kind of stores you describe.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;273020Interestingly, the good stores seem to cluster. When you have a single store serving a community, not always but it has been my experience, they tend to be the "A group of gamers got together and wanted a place to game" kind of store...oh, and good discounts. That usually does not work out well and results in the kind of stores you describe.

Bill

I think people who want to open game stores model their endeavors after the stores they have experienced. Since this is likely the case the best stores would most likely cluster.

Oh and possibly the large population centers of the north.

Down here in the south its slim pickings.

Tootles

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;273049I think people who want to open game stores model their endeavors after the stores they have experienced. Since this is likely the case the best stores would most likely cluster.

Oh and possibly the large population centers of the north.

Down here in the south its slim pickings.

Tootles

Could be. I was wondering if it was a function of competition. Possibly a part.

QuoteSounds like HinterWelt had the uber-gamestore.

No, I have the uber-gamestore.

Sentry Box (http://www.sentrybox.com/store_pictures/index.htm)

With over 13,000 sq. ft. of display and gaming space, the Sentry Box is a Mecca for those interested in fantasy, science fiction, or military games, books and miniatures. The policy of the Sentry Box has always been "If it's in print, we'll try to stock it." With over 46,000 different items on the shelves, this shows that we mean what we say.

Quote from: KenHR;270944This is strictly anecdotal, but...

I was a supervisor at a Borders superstore during the time that 3e was shiny and new.  I was also personally responsible for maintaining and tracking sales in the games section of the bookstore.  Many, many young kids were getting into D&D at the time; I regularly fielded questions from confused parents, and many kids (ages 8-18, not to mention a large number of college kids) spent a considerable amount of time lounged on benches and couches in the store perusing the latest splats and sourcebooks.  We also had a lot of WW and GoO stuff, and that was snapped up along with D&D.

At least in my area, 3e did seem to pull in a lot of young blood.  While I didn't care for 3e, it did my heart good to see kids get genuinely excited over new RPG material.

3.5 didn't seem to have the same effect, however.

I heard similar anecdotes; a guy at work said his junior high aged kid was into D&D and it was a bit of a fad with kids that age again.  Would have been 2003 or so.  Clearly, it wasn't like it was in the early 80s, but it was a pale reflection of it, I think.

Quote from: Koltar;273012Maybe, just maybe the release of 4th edition of Dungeons & Dragons had the bad luck to be published right when the economy was starting to take its downturn.  The new version was released this past June, the economy and consumers started to get 'nervous' around late August or Early September. It could be its not the game itself  - but the economic environment that it was released into.


- Ed C.

It's certainly possible Christmas Koltar, I don't rule it out.

Quote from: Balbinus;273232It's certainly possible, Christmas Koltar, I don't rule it out.

(http://bp2.blogger.com/_ch7-UV8hoFY/R1A_uiOKQyI/AAAAAAAAABM/vIZr9R3FGr0/s320/Klingon_Photo.jpg)

Christmas Koltar "Caroling with Honor" playset just in time for the Holidays.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;273241(http://bp2.blogger.com/_ch7-UV8hoFY/R1A_uiOKQyI/AAAAAAAAABM/vIZr9R3FGr0/s320/Klingon_Photo.jpg)

Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam, QI'yaH!

Quote from: Haffrung;273207No, I have the uber-gamestore.

Sentry Box (http://www.sentrybox.com/store_pictures/index.htm)

With over 13,000 sq. ft. of display and gaming space, the Sentry Box is a Mecca for those interested in fantasy, science fiction, or military games, books and miniatures. The policy of the Sentry Box has always been "If it's in print, we'll try to stock it." With over 46,000 different items on the shelves, this shows that we mean what we say.

Sentry Box is formidable most definitely. I would add that there are many other game stores that would leave WarHorse Hobbies in the dust. I named a few in the other post but I would add Diversified Games in WA and Castle Perilous in Carbondale IL. I just want you guys not to get the wrong idea. I am proud of what I accomplished with WarHorse and it had a lot to do with talking to other retailers who functioned the same way.

That said, mostly I was trying to say that the model makes a big difference. So, I think Kogi was talking about a certain type of shop. They have been around since before RPGs and are still around. There are also a model of store run the way I describe.

Bill

Quote from: Koltar;273012Maybe, just maybe the release of 4th edition of Dungeons & Dragons had the bad luck to be published right when the economy was starting to take its downturn.  The new version was released this past June, the economy and consumers started to get 'nervous' around late August or Early September. It could be its not the game itself  - but the economic environment that it was released into.

Hmmm. Have any of the anti-4E crowd declared that 4E caused the economic crash yet?

Quote from: Warthur;273259Hmmm. Have any of the anti-4E crowd declared that 4E caused the economic crash yet?

There is no need to give 4E credit for something it didn't accomplish.

Isn't it bad enough that the game doesn't satisfy everyone or do you just hate 4E that much?

i dunno. 4e killed my entire family right in front of me. if it wasn't such a great game, i'd seriously consider not playing it anymore.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;273241(http://bp2.blogger.com/_ch7-UV8hoFY/R1A_uiOKQyI/AAAAAAAAABM/vIZr9R3FGr0/s320/Klingon_Photo.jpg)

Christmas Koltar "Caroling with Honor" playset just in time for the Holidays.

IF you want to see me as the Klingon Santa (a.k.a. Kris zantai-Kloz) look over on the SJG forums  - thats my current avatar look over there.


On the rpgsite forums - I'll always be using pics portraying the human side of me.


- Ed C.

And for that we are grateful.

Quote from: jeff37923;273262There is no need to give 4E credit for something it didn't accomplish.

Isn't it bad enough that the game doesn't satisfy everyone or do you just hate 4E that much?

I'm sorry, did I run over your dog one day? Or are you still upset by how I don't think Harlon Ellison is that great of an author?

Read my comment. What is there that would make you think that I, personally, am anti-4E, when I am MAKING A JOKE ABOUT THE EXCESSIVE HYPERBOLE OF THE ANTI-4E CROWD?

Seriously, Jeff, it's like you've got some sort of fucked up personal beef with me all of a sudden and you're looking for ways to be offended by my posts. Would you please just fucking chill, or at least tell me why you've decided that I am your personal nemesis all of a sudden?

Jeff appears to be ticked that you badmouthed Ellison, after he badmouthed Roddenberry by using the Harlan Ellison story.

Back on topic:

 The more I think about the 'underselling' referred to be the title of the thread realkly may be just a case of its release coinciding with an economy that was on the downturn.


Around six moiths to a year from now we should check how many game companies that make or sell RPG/miniatures products are still around. We've lost WizKids in the past few weeks. I expect both Steve Jackson Games and Wizards of the Coast to still be around in a year. SJG has a knack for surviving as a company, WotC  being a tad younger as a company and owned by Hasbro I think may also be around in a year's time.  Paizo and Mongoose I think are 50/50 ....with PAIZO having the better shot of weathering events.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;273378Jeff appears to be ticked that you badmouthed Ellison, after he badmouthed Roddenberry by using the Harlan Ellison story.
- Ed C.

Special Ed, is this another attempt by you to beg for attention?

Quote from: Warthur;273350I'm sorry, did I run over your dog one day? Or are you still upset by how I don't think Harlon Ellison is that great of an author?

Read my comment. What is there that would make you think that I, personally, am anti-4E, when I am MAKING A JOKE ABOUT THE EXCESSIVE HYPERBOLE OF THE ANTI-4E CROWD?

Seriously, Jeff, it's like you've got some sort of fucked up personal beef with me all of a sudden and you're looking for ways to be offended by my posts. Would you please just fucking chill, or at least tell me why you've decided that I am your personal nemesis all of a sudden?

I made a joke as well, obviously you take this as the beginning of a feud between us.

Quote from: Koltar;273378Back on topic:

 The more I think about the 'underselling' referred to be the title of the thread realkly may be just a case of its release coinciding with an economy that was on the downturn.

I don't know Ed. A lot of RPG companies, both publishers and retailers, say that economic downturns actually are good for business. People can't afford to take that trip to Hawaii but they can get a new game so you see a lot of folks showing up looking for Carcosonne and Settlers or even Monopoly but then getting directed to those games. RPGs get caught up in there as a cheap alternative to even going to the movies (sometimes ;) ).

I am not saying it could not be a the downturn but I don;t think it is necessarily a slam dunk either.

okay ...yeah I might be wrong ...and backing up Hinterwelt's comment:

I stopped in the store to retrieve some stuff I left there during my last shift. My manager tells me we are not only UP! for the week in numbers - as in beating last year, we are also outselling oour sister stores in other states that are part of the company.

 Huh.


Intertesting



- Ed C.


I'm off today because its my birthday

Quote from: jeff37923;273409I made a joke as well, obviously you take this as the beginning of a feud between us.

The joke seemed to consist of randomly accusing me of being anti-4E. It didn't make any sense in context and seemed to involve no real connection to what I actually posted beyond you noting that I had mentioned 4E in a post and deciding to go for my throat.

Are you OK? Has work been getting you down lately? Are your worries about the economy keeping you up at night? Do you need a hug? You seem to be acting in a really, really strange way, and I begin to worry about you.

Do you two need a time out?  Maybe some juice?  Perhaps we need to call your parents and arrange a face-to-face meeting to sort out your issues.

You were BOTH making a joke the other didn't pick up on because you're both looking at each others avatars with malicious intent.  Fuck, chill out BOTH of you.

Ellison rocks, and Roddenberry is an overrated hack. :p

Quote from: Warthur;273522The joke seemed to consist of randomly accusing me of being anti-4E. It didn't make any sense in context and seemed to involve no real connection to what I actually posted beyond you noting that I had mentioned 4E in a post and deciding to go for my throat.

Are you OK? Has work been getting you down lately? Are your worries about the economy keeping you up at night? Do you need a hug? You seem to be acting in a really, really strange way, and I begin to worry about you.

Warthur, when you pull your head out of your ass and struggle out of the persecution complex you've wrapped yourself up in, then maybe we could talk. Otherwise you are just being a douchebag, for whatever reason you wish to make up for yourself.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;273527Do you two need a time out?  Maybe some juice?  

I'll have a juice box and a double shot of 151, please.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;273527Fuck, chill out BOTH of you.

I'm trying, but I haven't gotten my juice box yet! Or my rum chaser!

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;273527Ellison rocks, and Roddenberry is an overrated hack. :p

QFT

Quote from: jeff37923;273550Warthur, when you pull your head out of your ass and struggle out of the persecution complex you've wrapped yourself up in, then maybe we could talk. Otherwise you are just being a douchebag, for whatever reason you wish to make up for yourself.

The day you don't freak the fuck out just because someone said something mean about your favourite overrated SF author is the day you get to accuse people of having persecution complexes, Jeff.

But until then, I guess I can agree to ignore you. ;)

Quote from: Koltar;273415okay ...yeah I might be wrong ...and backing up Hinterwelt's comment:

I stopped in the store to retrieve some stuff I left there during my last shift. My manager tells me we are not only UP! for the week in numbers - as in beating last year, we are also outselling oour sister stores in other states that are part of the company.

 Huh.


Intertesting



- Ed C.


I'm off today because its my birthday

First, Happy Birthday dude!  Live long and prosper and all that.

Second, and far less important, even if rpgs generally are helped by recession the three hardback book model of D&D might not be.  Are the early discounts still available?  If not, you might be wrong in general, but right in this specific instance.

Quote from: jeff37923;273551I'll have a juice box and a double shot of 151, please.



I'm trying, but I haven't gotten my juice box yet! Or my rum chaser!



QFT

Slams down box of Juicy Juice and a shot of Bacardi 151

There!  Man this parenting thing is easy!

Quote from: Warthur;273569The day you don't freak the fuck out just because someone said something mean about your favourite overrated SF author is the day you get to accuse people of having persecution complexes

 You mean like you freaked the fuck out over my comments on Roddenberry, after which you felt the need to let the internet know how evil the author maligned by Roddenberry was by using a 56-page flaming rant by a disgruntled Priest as proof?

Wrap that persecution complex tighter around you, it'll keep you warm this winter.

What's there to argue about?  Roddenberry and Ellison are both hacks, jerks, and divas.  Roddenberry did weirder things to Franz Joseph.  Ellison's complaints largely boil down to the fact that someone edited his work and it came out differently that he would have preferred - welcome to professional writing.

Shh... It's mating season.
If you fuck it up, they won't show their feathers.

Quote from: Aos;273612Shh... It's mating season.
If you fuck it up, they won't show their feathers.

I know you secretly covet my juice box.
Don't try to deny it.

Quote from: jeff37923;273652I know you secretly covet my juice box.
Don't try to deny it.

Wait, with a name like Jeff, I thought you were a guy.

Quote from: Nicephorus;273653Wait, with a name like Jeff, I thought you were a guy.

Does this mean I'm suddenly attractive to you now?

Quote from: Nicephorus;273653Wait, with a name like Jeff, I thought you were a guy.

L-O-L-A.  Lola.

Quote from: jeff37923;273654Does this mean I'm suddenly attractive to you now?

Nah, I already get plenty of allotments of juice.

mmmmmm juice.

Quote from: Haffrung;273207No, I have the uber-gamestore.

Sentry Box (http://www.sentrybox.com/store_pictures/index.htm)

I miss your Vancouver office dearly.

Another thing that may be influencing 4e sales is the sunset clause on the d20 license.

I enjoy both 3e and 4e, and may even prefer the latter, yet most of my gaming dollars are currently going into grabbing all the cool d20 stuff that will soon be unavailable or hard to find. Sure I could grab keep on the Shadowfel at the game store, but that module will be available for quite a while yet, while the 3.5 Dungeon Crawl Classics are far cheaper, going out of print, and disappearing fast (PDFs are just $2 now on RPGnow.com).

I would probably be buying more 4e stuff, but the third party product support has been slow and offers little of interest to me and I continually find myself rushing to snag the d20 books I always wanted to pick up but never did before.

Anecdotal evidence at best, but it will be interesting to see if 4e sales will pick up once cheap 3.5 books are no longer flooding the market.

The Sentry Box kicks ass. It is by far the best gaming store I've ever been to in my life.  Its tragic that its in the city its in...

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