Quote from: wulfgar;265699Is Justice Inc. the same detail/complexity as HERO?  I've heard lots of good things about the old game from different people online, but don't think rules heavy and pulp mix very well personally.

If I'm not mistaken, HERO only became a standalone system with the 4th edition of the rules that started as Champions. So if that's your point of comparison I'm pretty sure you'll find that any of the standalone games is simpler both because they only include the genre-relevant bits, and because they haven't gone through iterative rules-bloat across editions. Justice, Inc. is the same "generation" as Champions 3--and Fantasy Hero 1. I can't speak to Champs but  on reading, FH is pretty rules moderate. The only thing that really gives me pause--and it's a big one for anyone who wants a fast-moving game--is the phased initiative system that breaks down combat into rather small "ticks" and basically implies, to me, that everyone is going to have to stay on top of a highly structured set of procedures.

I'd put it this way--and again you can take this with a grain of salt since I haven't played the game: what you do in the middle of combat is broken down more into physical chunks than conceptual chunks, so you have to break your actions down into smaller bits than you might if you were narrating.

(Personally I don't think I'd have a problem with this but I feel it's likely to lie outside the comfort level of many RPGers.)

I can run it OK.  Smooth, fast even.  So...either it's not that hard in actual practice or I am some sort of pagan gamemastering god.

Oh, by the way -- here's something I love about this site.

Obviously we have here people who like HERO, and people who don't.  These people are content to say "Yes, I like it because X,Y,Z" or "No thanks, because X,Y,Z"...

...and it's not a bloody damn fight.  It's just discussion.

Try that with 4e and it will go somewhat differently I'm afraid.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;265748The only thing that really gives me pause--and it's a big one for anyone who wants a fast-moving game--is the phased initiative system that breaks down combat into rather small "ticks" and basically implies, to me, that everyone is going to have to stay on top of a highly structured set of procedures.

The Speed Chart is a really intimidating mechanic at first glance, but in actual play it becomes very intuitive and compared to other systems in use at the time of it's development was positively revolutionary.

I think in order to grok the Speed Chart it's best to approach it backwards, and show how HERO differs from other systems. One of the ideas from D&D that has become so ingrained in gaming as to be ubiquitous in games is the idea of the combat round.  Old schoolers will remember that rounds used to be collected into Turns, but most games have abandoned turns and simply have Rounds.  In order to represent characters who are faster or better fighters, most games use a Multiple Attacks Per Round mechanic.  That creates a whole host of problems involving sequences of attacks, as any Palladium player knows, but it's how most games resolve the issue.

HERO is based on the Combat Turn, rather than the Combat Round -- which in HERO parlance is a Phase -- and instead of attacks per round, the games considers attacks per turn, with the "normal human" attacking twice a turn.  A turn is 12 seconds.

A character's SPEED attribute can thus be read as "ATTACKS PER TURN."

Looking up a character's speed on the Speed Chart determines which phases your character gets an attack in -- the formula is 1 Attack every (12/SPD) phases, so a character with a 2 SPD attacks every (12/2) = 6 phases, or on phase 6 and 12, while a character with a 3 SPD attacks every (12/3) = 4 phases, or on phase 4, 8, and 12.  Obviously 5 and 7+ are tricky, hence the Speed Chart.

On each Phase in which a character acts, they act according to the DEX, just like many others games.  

And after every 12 phases, there is a Post-Segment 12 Recovery where everyone gets some "hit points" back, and then it's a new turn.

QuoteI'd put it this way--and again you can take this with a grain of salt since I haven't played the game: what you do in the middle of combat is broken down more into physical chunks than conceptual chunks, so you have to break your actions down into smaller bits than you might if you were narrating.

It's best to think (and describe) in turns of what you're going to do in a turn, in a 12 second period of time, rather than to think in terms of what you're going to do this phase.

Jackalope, I got a headache just reading that

Quote from: brettmb;265813Jackalope, I got a headache just reading that

Okay.

I have to admit though, I kind of find these kinds of comments about HERO annoying, because they scare a lot of people off.  People are always saying it's "too difficult" but it's far more elegant and intuitive than a monster like D&D 3.5, and far easier to master.  Yet plenty of people do fine with that.

Quote from: Jackalope;265818Okay.

I have to admit though, I kind of find these kinds of comments about HERO annoying, because they scare a lot of people off.  People are always saying it's "too difficult" but it's far more elegant and intuitive than a monster like D&D 3.5, and far easier to master.  Yet plenty of people do fine with that.

I think you could have described it in a simpler manner, so my remark is directed at you rather than the system.

Quote from: Jackalope;265818Okay.

I have to admit though, I kind of find these kinds of comments about HERO annoying, because they scare a lot of people off.  People are always saying it's "too difficult" but it's far more elegant and intuitive than a monster like D&D 3.5, and far easier to master.  Yet plenty of people do fine with that.

I find them both to be overly complex, actually.  However, one of the key differences is character creation. 3.5 allows you ramp up the complexity as your character progresses, with hero it's right there at the start.
Beyond that, people who like complex games aren't scared off by comments like  "it's complex".

Beyond beyond that, somebody doesn't like everybody's favotrite game.

Quote from: Aos;265837Beyond that, people who like complex games aren't scared off by comments like  "it's complex".

Yeah, but people make it sound like it's worse than rocket physics.

Like the book is going to go all Scanners on you and make your head asplode.

Though HYBRID is based on HERO...

Quote from: brettmb;265813Jackalope, I got a headache just reading that

I am with you Brett, and I have played Rolemaster and MERPS for years.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;265863I am with you Brett, and I have played Rolemaster and MERPS for years.

Bill

While I think that HERO has more "up front" to learn, I think in terms of "playing at the table" HERO is both faster and easier than Rolemaster by far.  One large reason is almost never needing to look up anything in the rules.  Everything pertinent is one your character sheet.  And, baring Supers, one page suffices.  We call it Chartmaster for a reason in my group...  

My other selling point for HERO is, nearly anything can be adjudicated by the system without GM handwaving.  i.e. it's a consistent system that covers all elements encountered by the players.  Admittedly, I don't much like how it handles vehicles, or complicated ones at least.  Stating them out fully with number crunched powers can be laborious.

QuoteMy other selling point for HERO is, nearly anything can be adjudicated by the system without GM handwaving. i.e. it's a consistent system that covers all elements encountered by the players.

Any game that completely eliminates GM handwaving is either:

1. WAAAAAY too rules heavy.

or

2. Played by players that aren't doing enough creative things to push their GM into handwaving.

Just my 2 cents.  If there's not at least some handwaving to some degree, then you're really playing a boardgame and not an rpg I'd think.

Hero is a big, big book. But it's put together very intuitively and consistently. Justice Inc is also one of my favorite games ever. It put the Hero rules out there in a slender, non-intimidating booklet, and it felt really good for pulp heroes.

I played Champions, but was never as enthusiastic about it as I was about Justice Inc, or Espionage! or Ninja Hero. I think the system is best digested in small, genre-specific chunks.

I played Champions WAY back in the day (second Edition, damn near, but not quite, 20 years ago...), being introduced to it at a game convention. I played two different games that day (100 point street heroes, where my super dense thug chose to take a 30 story fall off a skyscraper rather than have his pride injured by admitting he hadn't... quite... made the jump across.  The GM rolled damage twice trying to get a 'reasonable' result (death?), but the dice gods were with me that game and I swaggered away convinced of my own immortality...  After a lengthy wait for the stun to wear off that is...

The second game was with the pre-gen'ed Champions (Defender! Woot) with a GM Of Dubious Skill.

Regardless I was sold. Then again, I eat, sleep, and breath Math.  

Here is the thing:  Hero is not hard. Seriously, the core of the game is functionally identical to GURPS (3d6 diceroll). The difference is in the implementation.  IN some ways HERO is more balanced, more even that GURPS.  Its less freindly to skill heavy games, though even there the skills tend to be more balanced.   Its also less friendly to gadget freaks.  There are no gadgets, no neat toys, just collections of points expressed in powers that explain their utility in mechanical terms. Functional, yes, but lacking in the Squee! factor of a good gadget filled supplement book.

Still. Lacking any other gaming resource I might well be content to claim as my only gaming resource a copy of any edition of the HERO rules. One book to rule them all... yadda yadda.

Its not my favorite game of all time (CP 2020, I summon YOU!), its certainly not the most atmospheric (SLA Industries I summon YOU!), and its not all the best at capturing any genre (aside from SUPERS) compared to genre specific games...

But for one book that includes literally anything and everything I need to run a, nay ANY, game? HERO/Champions really can't be beat.